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#4465359 - 03/13/19 03:54 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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as i said before in the thread about the previous crash, it still sounds like the pilots failed to just put their hand on the trim wheel, and they didn't hit the trim cutout switch

but that was that time - this is now. boeing has a lot of hell to pay for not addressing what was even then, clearly a badly designed system. they had months to prepare an update to make the aircraft flyable for pilots of lesser ability and those without the additional training that obviously everyone on a MAX should have taken

but ultimately it's hard for me to place all the blame on boeing when an incident like this happens so soon after the first crash. yes, the design is #%&*$#, but every pilot in a MAX should have been aware of this even just from hearing the news, and they should have known exactly what to do when things started looking like a runaway trim scenario. bad bad flying.

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#4465363 - 03/13/19 04:30 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Federal records show that U.S. pilots filed complaints about the Max8 ......8 months before the Ethiopian crash

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/u-s-pilots-complained-about-boeing-737-max-8-months-n982651

"I am left to wonder: what else don't I know?" one pilot wrote in a complaint about the Boeing 737 Max 8.


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#4465369 - 03/13/19 04:43 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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I think the FAA is making a mistake by not grounding this plane.

#4465373 - 03/13/19 05:00 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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it should be grounded everywhere until training is completed and software upgrades are installed and verified installed on every single aircraft produced and in production

#4465381 - 03/13/19 05:41 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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What was the report about smoke and fire in the air ?


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#4465403 - 03/13/19 06:41 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard
What was the report about smoke and fire in the air ?

It was reported by a couple of farmers that saw the aircraft.

Quote
Several witnesses who worked in the farmland below the plane's flight path told the Reuters news agency they heard loud rattling noises coming from the aircraft and saw billows of smoke and debris in its wake as it made a low turn over the fields.
"When it was hovering, fire was following its tail, then it tried to lift its nose," said one witness, Gadisa Benti. "When it passed over our house, the nose pointed down and the tail raised up. It went straight to the ground with its nose, it then exploded."


https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-47521744


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#4465405 - 03/13/19 07:03 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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President Trump has ordered to ground Boeing 737 MAX 8.

Last edited by Wigean; 03/13/19 07:05 PM.

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#4465413 - 03/13/19 08:13 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Wigean
President Trump has ordered to ground Boeing 737 MAX 8.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna982811

It's the right thing to do. Too many lives have been lost in such a short span. The FAA has waited too long before reacting and fixing a problem.

#4465416 - 03/13/19 08:45 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Boeing has also asked all airlines to ground their 737 Max 8s now.

#4465418 - 03/13/19 09:02 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Wow, they must have found something really significant in the investigation. The reactions yesterday by Canada, US and Boeing were nothing like what we're seeing today.

#4465422 - 03/13/19 09:58 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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But the Boeing BA stock closed up today.


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#4465423 - 03/13/19 10:05 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Not buying any shares... yet.

#4465471 - 03/14/19 04:17 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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About time, all 737 MAX 8 grounded.
Similarities between the 2 recent crashes are now emerging in the investigation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

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Last edited by Sluggish Controls; 03/14/19 04:44 AM.

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#4465598 - 03/14/19 10:33 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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Originally Posted by VF9_Longbow
as i said before in the thread about the previous crash, it still sounds like the pilots failed to just put their hand on the trim wheel, and they didn't hit the trim cutout switch

but that was that time - this is now. boeing has a lot of hell to pay for not addressing what was even then, clearly a badly designed system. they had months to prepare an update to make the aircraft flyable for pilots of lesser ability and those without the additional training that obviously everyone on a MAX should have taken

but ultimately it's hard for me to place all the blame on boeing when an incident like this happens so soon after the first crash. yes, the design is #%&*$#, but every pilot in a MAX should have been aware of this even just from hearing the news, and they should have known exactly what to do when things started looking like a runaway trim scenario. bad bad flying.


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?

#4465661 - 03/15/19 12:54 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Blade_RJ


sure its always the pilot fault ... did you already forget that case when the pilot was locked out of manual because the automated system though he was making a mistake and continued to pitch the plane ?


it doesn't lock the pilot out of anything.

there's a physical link from the trim wheel to the moving control surfaces.

all you need to do is hold the wheel. it will stop moving. as far as i know this has always been boeing's policy.

besides that, right by the trim wheel are two cutout switches that can turn the thing off completely.

there are also a number of breakers on the rear overhead panel or bulkhead that can accomplish the same thing and more if the situation allows enough time to pull them.

boeing diverged from its philosophy of allowing the pilot to manually override anything with physical force on the control column with this series of aircraft and it has clearly not been implemented well.

but ultimately i still think that this crew's lack of familiarity with flying in general (200 hour copilot?) was probably a major contributor to this crash. not absolving boeing at all - their system sucks. but every 737 pilot in the world should have known to hit the trim cutout switches after the first crash, and grabbing the wildly spinning, clacking trim wheel ought to be an instinct for any pilot with ears. they were probably literally twiddling their thumbs trying to get the trim to work on their yokes like in the first crash. 200 hours is not enough to fly a commercial jet. it's more of a burden to whoever's in the left seat than anything.

#4465781 - 03/16/19 08:11 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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There is a video of the operation of the trim system in this video:



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#4465787 - 03/16/19 10:50 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Alicatt]  
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i was just about to post that, it looked like it required a fair bit of force to stop it spinning and you have to actually hold it or it just keeps spinning... what if you have other buttons to press? yea there might be 2 people up front but considering the pilot will be busy looking out the windows with both hands on the controls and the co pilot will prolly be troubleshooting as well ... to me it just seems like an un needed stupid system


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#4465806 - 03/16/19 01:44 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Great info from real pilots HERE

Boeing’s design deficiency [JF note: having the MCAS rely on a single data source, the “angle of attack” indicator, without backup or comparative sensors] sets up the need for pilot training on how to overcome it.

-Boeing’s failure to highlight the change resulted in no specific MCAS pilot training.

Those two big mistakes, it now appears, likely caused two tragic major catastrophes. Shame on Boeing if the final analysis bears these points out.

The corrective action is simple and within the capabilities of any competent airline captain to execute. Certainly easier than dealing with an engine fire or loss of multiple hydraulic systems.

There is a broad spectrum of abilities in any group of pilots, and without an emphasis training, some of them will be unable to overcome the design deficiency, even if the emergency procedure is simple to carry out. All the lights and buzzers going off will freeze the less capable pilot who has not been trained to drill down to what is going on, and to flip the switch. Training has to be to the lowest level of ability, if you’re operating an airline with any significant number of pilots. They all can't be Sully Sullenbergers.


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#4466104 - 03/18/19 12:09 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Not sure why federal prosecutors would be investigating the development of the Max8 or is this routine stuff with air crashes ?


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#4466158 - 03/18/19 02:16 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: oldgrognard]  
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Originally Posted by oldgrognard
But the Boeing BA stock closed up today.

3% down today Edit: that was this morning, now down 10%

Reports saying investigators are now looking into the FAA's approval process for the MAX-8 as well as the extra training given to pilots on the differences between the standard 737 and the Max-8 version being only 56 minutes and on an iPad.

Not the link I first read it in this morning but contains similar info https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing...-scrutiny-ethiopian-airways-et302-crash/

Last edited by Alicatt; 03/18/19 02:19 PM.

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