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#4467561 - 03/26/19 02:37 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: F4UDash4]  
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... and the response to that by George Turner:
Quote
But the crews weren’t going to die without MCAS. All the prior 737’s had all those other systems that adjusted the trim, and all the pilots, like these, were trained how to respond to runaway trim by hitting the TRIM STAB cutout switch. ... Third world pilots flying 737 NG’s instead of MAX’s aren’t crashing due to runaway trim, and those are the same pilots that just transitioned to the MAX, which they are crashing....

The problem is that MCAS doesn’t manifest as runaway trim until the NTSB finds the jack screw in the debris. It only runs for a handful of seconds and then stops. So when the pilot is trying to figure out if he has a runaway trim problem, the trim wheels aren’t turning, so the answer is no, it can’t be runaway trim. So he goes on checking something else to get the plane back to a normal attitude, probably focusing on why the engines just went to full thrust.

Shortly afterwards, the wheels turn again, and then stop. He keeps right on troubleshooting, and it’s still not manifesting as runaway trim because the trim wheels aren’t turning. And the MCAS system and the pilot might do this little dance all the way into the ground. As one 737 pilot described it, MCAS is insidious because it acts intermittently...

Last edited by WhoCares; 03/26/19 02:38 PM.
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#4467562 - 03/26/19 02:48 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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The response is from where?

Bottom line IMO.

Disconnect all auto control functions and fly the #%&*$# airplane as a FIRST step in trouble shooting. What's insidious is these pilots not doing this, again, IMO.


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4467563 - 03/26/19 02:55 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer
The response is from where?

Bottom line IMO.

Disconnect all auto control functions and fly the #%&*$# airplane as a FIRST step in trouble shooting. What's insidious is these pilots not doing this, again, IMO.

In the same link posted by F4U earlier, from which he also took his quote.

#4467565 - 03/26/19 03:26 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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I'm not sure we can blame the pilots here.

Boeing modified the jet with a new system that does something entirely new and unexpected, that even seasoned pilots aren't used to. Then Boeing decides to make once of the necessary sensors an option, which airlines don't understand is an important option, and neglect to purchase. And to top things off, with or without the system, the jet has a single point of failure in a sensor that has no redundancy, which can cause insidious trim wheel movements that are counter-intuitive and not a red flag based on standard pilot training. You have a jet trying to kill itself due to a badly designed and implemented system.

I think it is unfair the pilots should shoulder the blame here, given they acted according to their training on a situation that was not obvious.

Boeing messed up. Badly. There's some serious negligence here, and they have blood on their hands. No amount of profit is worthwhile if the cash is stained with blood.



I think what is most insidious about this system is it sounds like even if the pilots are manually flying the aircraft to altitude, the MCAS still will kick in and override their inputs with sporadic trim wheel adjustments. The trim stab cutoff seems second nature to use if the wheels are spinning, but if they're moving incrementally? Not an obvious solution it seems.

#4467567 - 03/26/19 03:36 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Great story here about real pilots vs a runaway flight computer:

Link


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4467594 - 03/26/19 05:29 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
Holy Smokes! As a pilot, his description of what happens in the cockpit during this malfunction sends shivers up my spine. The trim is running wild and every time you try to correct it it goes back to what it was doing. Then the auto pilot pushes the throttles forward and you are completely losing control of your airplane. And add to this, that you are low and slow on takeoff or landing and it's the stuff that gives pilots nightmares.


prescription for this problem: click click, click click

autopilot off

autothrottle off

hand on the yoke.
hand on the throttles.

PROBLEM SOLVED

yes, airliners should be designed for the lowest common denominator, but really. the governments of all developed nations have stricter rules on drivers trying to get their driver's license. you will not find a person with 200 hours of driving time driving a bus or truck anywhere, not legally at least. why is this being allowed for jets?


boeing screwed up but until the world decides to get its #%&*$# together and not put incompetent people into the cockpit, this is going to get worse.

and for what it's worth, this is not the first time over reliance on automation has caused a slew of accidents. in the early to late 1990's, airlines and aircraft manufacturers continually tried to downplay the importance of competent flight crew and increasingly demanded the reliance on automation for all phases of the flight. this ultimately led to a statistically significant increase in accident rates around the world. many of these accidents and incidents involved crew who were too busy trying to deal with automation related issues, be that punching stuff into the scratch pads, fiddling with the mcp, whatever. they crashed their aircraft into the ground or other aircraft. in many or all cases, simply manhandling the aircraft with AP and AT off, looking outside or at the big blue screen in front of them while having their hands on the yoke and throttle would have saved the aircraft.

#4467604 - 03/26/19 06:46 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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As mentioned earlier in a recent simulation the pilots had just 40 seconds to the correct the situation

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/26/americas/boeing-test-40-seconds-intl/index.html


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4467610 - 03/26/19 07:25 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Ooooooo 40 seconds...the stress, the horror..

I have had less than 10 seconds separating me and possible death and injury, or major collisions. Me and my BIG dang steel boat, full of flammables, toxic stuff, sometimes passengers and sometimes very explosive stuff, and close collisions with oil platforms, other boats and assorted other hazards.

It's called experience and keeping your cool when it counts...luck helps also at times...and not being afraid to make a decision.

You don't learn that in a few hundred hours, or as semmern said, a few thousand hours on autopilot. A merchant Marine Captain is required to have hundreds of DAYS, not hours, at sea just to get an entry level license. No boat owner in their right mind will let a new captain run a boat without serious supervision.

40 seconds is a long darn time if you know what you are doing.

Contrary to current beliefs, in the game of life, you don't get a trophy if you lose.

Somebody needs to set up a website to expose all these shifty air carriers with low time/experience pilots in the cockpit.


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4467619 - 03/26/19 08:27 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Forty seconds? Do you want to get a good idea of how LONG that is try staring at a clock while holding your breath. Those seconds start to s-t-r--e---t----c------h .

In 1975 I pulled my ripcord and nothing happened. I mean it didn't even clear the pocket. I was at 2500 feet AGL, terminal velocity, and just off the coast of Florida (opening point in order to land about 500 yards inland) at the time. That means I had less than twelve seconds to diagnose and correct the problem or become a mess for someone to clean up (given 200 to 300 feet for the parachute to open). And there is NO "emergency procedure" training for that situation.

If you can't think fast and clearly in an emergency situation you have no business putting other people's lives at risk, let alone your own.


**edit**
In the interest of full disclosure, it was my own stupidity. I had a left-side inboard pull harness and somehow had routed my cheststrap THROUGH the ripcord handle. There are at least two other people who should have caught it, but the ultimate responsibility lies with me.
I survived, by the way.

Last edited by vonBaur; 03/26/19 10:47 PM.

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#4467625 - 03/26/19 08:42 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.

#4467636 - 03/26/19 10:41 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The pilot who, according to the news, was in the jumpseat of the Ethiopian airliner the day before it crashed and told those pilots how to correct the problem then has flown it. And although I don't know if he'd ever experienced the malfunction before that he certainly knew what to do should it occur. So since he knew I have to assume the knowledge was available to other pilots who do fly the type and should have a vested interest in staying up to date on its peculiarities. Also, as I have mentioned a few times, I've known since the Lion Air crash just from watching the news even though I am admittedly only an "armchair pilot". *


Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.

I'm not negating Boeing's responsibility in this. Aircraft safety is, literally, a matter of life and death. And the idea of not having at least one backup sensor as standard equipment is something for which they should definitely be held totally responsible. Safety equipment that is considered important enough to be optional should be considered important enough to be standard, NOT optional. All I'm saying is that to hold the pilots completely blameless in it is, in my opinion, wrong. The information was out there, and to more than just pilots who fly those aircraft. They had a responsibility to their passengers to make sure they knew it. And their airline had the same responsibility.


*I'll see your "ZIP", and raise you a "BAZINGA". wink


SALUTE TO ALL!
#4467653 - 03/26/19 10:58 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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Hard to call your countryman, semmern, an armchair pilot.


"I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know no way of judging of the future but by the past."
Patrick Henry 1775

I personally believe in the tooth fairy, Santa Claus and that deficit spending is sustainable forever. We really do need more Admirals in the Navy than ships and that millions of more poor immigrants will jump start the economy.

"There's a sucker born every minute."
Phineas Taylor Barnum

#4467668 - 03/27/19 01:32 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?


I'm betting you've not flown one either.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4467718 - 03/27/19 11:17 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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a good article by an investor who is also an aerospace engineer

Boeing 737 MAX Lessons To Be Learned
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4251063-boeing-737-max-lessons-learned


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4467774 - 03/27/19 06:07 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: EAF331 MadDog]  
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Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.


The FAA is just as much responsible as Boeing. The FAA approved the airplane. The bureaucracy and red tape run deep......

And no armchair pilot here. Though I don't fly the 737 or MAX, I fly a similar type jet. And typed in others as well. I'm ok being labeled a Monday morning quarterback. right


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#4467791 - 03/27/19 07:28 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Chaz]  
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Originally Posted by Chaz
Originally Posted by EAF331 MadDog
A lot of armchair pilots here.

How many of you have flown the MAX8 and espesially have experienced the MASC malfunctioning like in these two crashes?

I thought so. ZIP.

The blame is fully in Boeing's court - they created the system, they failed to provide proper mandatory training on it in order to save costs. Some motherfucking beancounter and leaders at Boeing needs to be tried for 300+ cases of manslaughter in a federal state with the death penality.


The FAA is just as much responsible as Boeing. The FAA approved the airplane. The bureaucracy and red tape run deep......

And no armchair pilot here. Though I don't fly the 737 or MAX, I fly a similar type jet. And typed in others as well. I'm ok being labeled a Monday morning quarterback. right


I'm not sure if I already posted it, but it sounds like all parties are at fault in some capacity.

- Improperly trained pilots
- Only one sensor for MCAS even if it can be disable easily seems like a lack of redundancy for what is a major system
- FAA should have noted the above

#4467825 - 03/28/19 01:36 AM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
...it sounds like all parties are at fault in some capacity.
- Improperly trained pilots
- Only one sensor for MCAS even if it can be disable easily seems like a lack of redundancy for what is a major system
- FAA should have noted the above


Agreed as to all parties, although I would add at least Ethiopian Airlines. But the question, in my mind, is to what extent should each be held accountable?

Boeing: somewhat for their treatment of a backup system as "optional equipment". As I said earlier, if they felt the additional safety of multiple sensors justified offering them as option, they should have been included as standard. As I understand it, system redundancy is so much the norm in airliner design they probably wouldn't even have had to justify the cost of it to their customers.

The FAA: probably not so much. They didn't farm out certification to Boeing for this one type only. According to the reports I've heard, it's been SOP for years, maybe decades.

The pilots: In the case of Lion Air, somewhat leaning toward giving them a pass, since theirs was the first case to come to light. In the case of Ethiopian Airlines, definitely. Ultimately the pilots are the ones putting their lives and the lives of their passengers on the line. Not to oversimplify, but if you see something unfamiliar in an airplane you're going to be flying you might want to ask, "Oooo eek ! What does this button do?" And as I have stated, by the time of the second crash the potential danger was well-known even outside aviation circles. I used to skydive, and one of the Golden Rules was "never jump a parachute you didn't pack", the crux of which is that YOU are the one who may die and therefore the one ultimately responsible for making sure you know what's going on before you step out of the airplane. Or on it, for that matter. And the airline's safety officials should potentially be held more accountable than the pilots, since their only job is to ensure the safety of the passengers. They should be scouring every incident report for any equipment issue, and especially when it involves an aircraft type their airline uses.


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#4467876 - 03/28/19 01:22 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: Haggart]  
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#4467885 - 03/28/19 02:18 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: CyBerkut]  
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An engine quit is what I heard.


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4467923 - 03/28/19 03:57 PM Re: Another Boeing 737 Max 8 Flight Goes Down [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted by KraziKanuK


An engine quit is what I heard.

Same here, which would make this totally unrelated. Although I'm sure that won't make any difference to the media.


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