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#4451167 - 11/30/18 02:12 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Adjacent compartments flooding because of design issues... not nice.



Didn't the Titanic have the same design flaw?


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#4451171 - 11/30/18 02:47 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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I believe she did Panzer. Possibly excusable in 1911 as she was one of the first 'unsinkable' ship designs but a ship launched in 2007? There's no excuse for that.


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#4451175 - 11/30/18 03:14 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
I believe she did Panzer. Possibly excusable in 1911 as she was one of the first 'unsinkable' ship designs but a ship launched in 2007? There's no excuse for that.




Especially not for a warship.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4451176 - 11/30/18 03:15 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Oh and that design is/was in the running for the US Navy's new frigate.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4451295 - 12/01/18 08:44 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Adjacent compartments flooding because of design issues... not nice.



Didn't the Titanic have the same design flaw?

In a different way, but yes.

#4451304 - 12/01/18 11:42 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Continuing a not very glamorous couple of weeks in Norway’s rich maritime history, a floating dry dock built in 1911 sank outside Bergen a week ago. It was ordered by Winston Churchill when he was First Lord of the Admiralty, and survived both world wars. Amazing that it was still in use! I really hope it will be raised again.

http://www.tynebuiltships.co.uk/M-Ships/medwaydock1912.html

https://sysla.no/maritim/dokken-overlevde-verdenskriger-dag-sank-den-hjeltefjorden/


In all my years I've never seen the like. It has to be more than a hundred sea miles and he brings us up on his tail. That's seamanship, Mr. Pullings. My God, that's seamanship!
#4453117 - 12/13/18 04:17 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4453264 - 12/14/18 05:58 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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This shows first the naval explosive divers removing the anti-ship missiles, then you can see some of the damage of the ship.

#4463120 - 02/26/19 08:23 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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They have started the salvage operation. It's expected to take several days to get it onto the barge to be transported to it's naval port.

A turn of the weather might jepardize the operation and wreck it.


Live feed of the operation

Last edited by EAF331 MadDog; 02/26/19 08:23 PM.
#4463798 - 03/03/19 12:48 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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It's now been lifted onto the barge and is being towed to Håkonsvern.

Attached Files KNM Ingstad.png
#4463805 - 03/03/19 02:52 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Do the navies don't know how to manage ships without running into other ships anymore


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#4463829 - 03/03/19 05:44 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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pathetic how this keeps happening. the design flaw was a ridiculous oversight. is this not yacht building 101 - every hole you put in the hull must be sealed or have a very reliable valve to seal it.

#4469844 - 04/10/19 07:31 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: VF9_Longbow]  
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KNM Helge Instad sails again!

Using the true and tested McGuyver field repair kit it's now seaworthy again!

[Linked Image]

Of course its only going to sail into the dry dock it's next to, and there it will be evaluated. In all likelyhood it will be scrapped. It was in shallow oxygen-rich water so corrosion has set in badly - it would need to utterly refurbished from top to bottom and that is probably just as expensive as bying a new ship,

Attached Files vXsJ3x5s.jpg
Last edited by EAF331 MadDog; 04/10/19 07:33 PM.
#4469853 - 04/10/19 08:59 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other


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#4469875 - 04/10/19 10:37 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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#4469876 - 04/10/19 10:39 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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Or complacency.

Accidents happen. Usually because of human error somewhere along the line.


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#4469923 - 04/11/19 02:28 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4470032 - 04/11/19 10:32 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


Maybe the watch should be doubled when sailing in congested waters or areas of limited maneuvering room at night. There’s just no way 2 ships should EVER get close enough to collide. If it means there’s no mid rats because the cooks are on the rail with NVGs or some sailors don’t get to go to bed that night, then so be it.


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#4470039 - 04/11/19 10:50 PM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: NH2112]  
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Originally Posted by NH2112
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Haggart
how big does the ocean have to be to keep them from running into each other



In this case it didn't happen on the ocean.


Maybe the watch should be doubled when sailing in congested waters or areas of limited maneuvering room at night. There’s just no way 2 ships should EVER get close enough to collide. If it means there’s no mid rats because the cooks are on the rail with NVGs or some sailors don’t get to go to bed that night, then so be it.



As I understand this collision it wasn't from a lack of seeing the oncoming ship, but a lack of correctly interpreting its course. In that case more eyes would not necessarily help any.


“Government has three primary functions. It should provide for military defense of the nation. It should enforce contracts between individuals. It should protect citizens from crimes against themselves or their property. When government-- in pursuit of good intentions tries to rearrange the economy, legislate morality, or help special interests, the cost comes in inefficiency, lack of motivation, and loss of freedom. Government should be a referee, not an active player.” - Milton Friedman
#4470107 - 04/12/19 08:10 AM Re: Helge Ingstad: Warship collides with tanker in fjord [Re: Patrocles]  
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The best skippers are to be found on the pier, of course. But several factors seem to have compounded
- it was the return from a lengthy exercise, the the crew was anxious to get back to shore
- the captain's decision to run through the fjord under emission control (save for radio traffic)
- confirmation bias that misinterpreted the tanker's position light far too long as the lights of the oil terminal
- change of watch immediately before the collision
- abandoning ship way too soon rather than trying to fight the flooding

Simply reducing speed when they received the first warning that the might be on a collision course might already have helped to prevent disaster, rather than keeping barrelling at 30 knots with radars turned off through confined waters. Even if you dismiss the radio warnings as an error on the civilian ships' side, simply accounting for the possibility that they are right and you might be wrong would have helped a lot to keep an open mind about the situation. At least, that's my take on the whole incident.

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