Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4432902 - 08/04/18 02:47 AM Collisions!!!!  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Nowi Offline
Member
Nowi  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Florida
Can collisions be made optional? Something that can be turned on or off?

I know, collisions are "realistic." Boelcke lost his life in a collision. BUT....

I quit playing a French career, which I began after my careers in a DH2 and another in a Fokker Triplane ended in collisions, when it likewise and frustratingly ended in yet another collision during the landing circle parade. I, thankfully, had the campaign backed up. I restarted and guess what? I died on the next mission in another collision. (What is it with the AI's inability to control French aircraft on escort sorties?)

I started a new German career in September 1916, flying a Halberstadt with Jasta 8. The unit this early in the war only has six fliers, or I should say it HAD six fliers.

Of the six fliegers alive on 12 September, my start date, one week and seven missions later I am the only survivor! My five comrades ALL died in . . . collisions! On two sorties, a pair of Fokkers collided; both pilots died both times. The fifth pilot died when he collided with the balloon he and I were attacking. (It was a two-man mission because we were the only two men left in Jasta 8.

So let's talk "realism." I quote: "During its 27-month existence, [Jasta8] scored at least 91 confirmed victories, in turn it paid the cost of four pilots killed in action, one killed in a flying accident, and eight wounded in action (two multiple)."

Basically, my virtual Jasta 8 had more men KIA during one week, all from collisions, than the actual unit suffered during the entire period September 1916-November 1918!

When I go aloft in WOFF, my biggest fear isn't being shot down; it's having the AI drive one of my comrades aircraft into me! My last three careers ended in collisions with friendlies!

TURN OFF COLLISIONS!


Nowi
#4432928 - 08/04/18 10:20 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
High over the Front
Interesting. Never noticed the AI colliding at a “unrealistic” rate. In fact it seems rare.
As for myself it is always my fault, ultimately, when it happens.
My last (long while ago) occured when myself and a wingman went for the same target.
Of course, with all the assorted variables, YMMV.

#4432931 - 08/04/18 10:27 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,315
lederhosen Offline
Member
lederhosen  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,315
Germany
Well to be honest, when fighting 2 seaters or balloons its almost a gauranty that at least one wingman dives into the target. Thats been my obsevations thus far


make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4432932 - 08/04/18 10:27 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,152
Polovski Online content
Polovski  Online Content

Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 7,152
I have never seen that many collisions together with the player. Are you sure none were your fault? Sudden direction changes will cause that even in real life. In formation you need to make gentle direction changes for one.

Modding settings can make them have not enough time to decide sometimes, the AI have a tested default distance when they start to think about collisions - I have seen one or two mods that reduce that distance.



Last edited by Polovski; 08/04/18 10:29 AM.

Regards,

Polovski,
OBD Software, developers of immersive flight sims;
Wings Over Flanders Fields and Wings Over The Reich
http://www.overflandersfields.com
http://www.wingsoverthereich.com
#4432934 - 08/04/18 10:53 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: lederhosen]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
High over the Front
Originally Posted by lederhosen
Well to be honest, when fighting 2 seaters or balloons its almost a gauranty that at least one wingman dives into the target. Thats been my obsevations thus far


Can’t recall that ever happening but obviously I may not see it.
And I always read the “after action” report seeing the victories (or fate) of assorted squadron/Jasta mates.
Are “Death by Collisions” listed as such in the after action?

#4432939 - 08/04/18 11:50 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,336
Hellshade Online content
Hellshade
Hellshade  Online Content
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,336
Florida
I also have not had this issue in the many years of flying, however I think there is an easiest enough way to sort out the issue.

Create a second pilot in the same squadron at the same time. Name him "AI Only" and let him fly all of his missions in AI control only mode. Never take manual control of him yourself. If he doesn't keep getting crushed by collisions...chances are the AI are not causing the issue. wink

Last edited by Hellshade; 08/04/18 11:50 AM.

Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4432941 - 08/04/18 11:57 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
High over the Front
I often kick around doing a observer/gunner career like that - having AI only fly the plane.
Just not enough hours in the week I’m afraid.

#4432943 - 08/04/18 12:06 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Nowi Offline
Member
Nowi  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Florida
Details!

I witnessed the death of my wingman who flew into the balloon. I had completed my pass and was looking back at the balloon to time my reverse for another pass, when I saw my trailing wingman fly into the balloon, which exploded.

The other instances of two mates colliding with each other occurred on escort sorties during which we never encountered any hostile aircraft. I fly with the Display on, set for aircraft, and I can see (at least when we are not in clouds) the silhouettes of the other planes. During turns, I could see the dots collide and spiral down.

Almost all of these collisions occur during escort missions. Most occur when the two-seater reverses after reaching its target.

A particular issue seems to plague the French. (I have not seen it with German or British aircraft.) The problem of collisions seems to be linked to escort sorties when the escorting scouts are of different speeds. For example, my last French career I was leading in a N 17, but my flight mates were all in much faster Spad VIIs. Generally, things proceed as follows. I am flying behind and above the escort, let's say a slower Brit Quirk. Gradually, I gain on the Quirk until I am right above it. Simultaneously, the Spads are gaining on me until they are slightly ahead of me, their leader. At this point, the other planes in my flight do "Crazy Ivans" and spiral off in different directions to get back into trailing positions. My plane, under AI control, does a 360 to get back into a trailing position. Kaboom!

Virtually all of these collisions occur playing under AI control at 12x. My plan is to slow down during course changes in the future to see if that helps. But I don't have the time to play this game at 1X. Some of these escort hops take 80 minutes in real time.

Pol said that some Mods alter the distances that the AI checks for collisions. Does anyone know which ones? Here's my current Mod list.

WOFF UE Ground Season Textures Mod by 4L0M
WOFF UE Effects Mod V1_10 by 4L0M
WOFF News mod V4.5
WOFF UE 0 - Facilities Models by Panama Red
WOFF UE V4_14 Custom d3d8 dll Settings Mod by Robert Wiggins
WOFF Rivers Mod by Olham
WOFF UE 1 - 1914+ Facilities - Full Trees Populated by Panama Red
WOFF UE 2 - Consolidated Periods and CampaignData Mod by RJW
WOFF UE 4a - Consolidated Custom Airfields Mod
WOFF UE Medals mod for PilotLogEditor java applet by JJJ65
New WOFF InSim Map by Nibbio
WOFF UE - (300) BT & FPS Improvement (High Quality) by Panama Red
WOFF UE OCM V2.9.2 - 1 Clouds Folder (required)
WOFF UE OCM V2.9.2 - 2 BB Fog Option
04 September to December 1916 V3_1 by OldHat
Effectstrailersmoke

I flew for years in Air Warrior. There were no collisions. You could fly right through people. Realistic? Obviously not. But I know that I instinctively would try to avoid collisions anyway. I also seem to recall that there was an option you could turn on or off in Red Baron.

I'm just tired of playing for hours and developing a pilot only to see him killed in a collision. I back up regularly and can restore the guy when he dies, but it gets annoying after a while, especially if you've been flying six sorties, get killed in a collision on the sixth, and lose everything you accomplished--kills, medals, promotions--when you restore.

Thanks!

Nowi


Nowi
#4432944 - 08/04/18 12:08 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: DukeIronHand]  
Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 788
Stache Offline
Member
Stache  Offline
Member

Joined: Sep 2015
Posts: 788
Michigan, USA
Originally Posted by DukeIronHand
Originally Posted by lederhosen
Well to be honest, when fighting 2 seaters or balloons its almost a gauranty that at least one wingman dives into the target. Thats been my obsevations thus far


Can’t recall that ever happening but obviously I may not see it.
And I always read the “after action” report seeing the victories (or fate) of assorted squadron/Jasta mates.
Are “Death by Collisions” listed as such in the after action?



I have witnessed the AI diving into a balloon way to often. This usually happens when I am not flight leader.
My solution is when the flight is about 5KM out to go to to full speed and try to kill the balloon before the flight gets there.
If I am the leader I fly a more horizontal approach the the balloon, but being the leader I usually get the kill first anyway.

As for my deaths due to collisions, I take full responsibility for those. Just a case of driving home an attack to far.

I have also learned to keep my fingers on the AutoPilot and Time Minus button and as soon as EA are sighted to quickly get back to Normal Speed, no autopilot.




Last edited by Stache; 08/04/18 12:17 PM.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. A. Einstein

(System Specs:)

I7-6700k OC 4.4GHZ, 16GB DDR4 3200Mhz; Gigabyte Gaming 7 MB, G1 OC'ed GTX980ti; Three-Acer XB271HU WQHD Gsync 144Mhz; Samsung 950-512GB NVMe SSD; WD 2TB-7200rpm; Cooler Master HAF XB EVO, Nepton 240M cooler, V1000 PS; Windows 10 PRO; VKB GunfighterPro Stick; Thrustmaster TPR Pedals; Saitek Throttle; Dual TM MFD panels; TrackIR 5; Windows 10 v1909
#4432949 - 08/04/18 12:27 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 956
HumanDrone Offline
Just shoot me...
HumanDrone  Offline
Just shoot me...
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 956
Near Pittsburgh, PA USA
Kinda tangent to the whole discussion, but is it possible that the occasional wingman going into a balloon had been impaired by flight damage or being wounded/killed by ground fire? They worked pretty hard to protect the old gas bags - balloons, not politicians, just to be clear... they get winched down pretty quick, and the gunfire from the ground can be intense, in my limited experience.


Box: Win7 Pro 64 bit / I72600K @4.1 GHz / EVGA GTX1080Ti/ 16GB RAM / Corsair 240 GB SSD / WD 600 GB Velociraptor / 1050W Power
FS Stuff: Saitek X52 Pro Stick/Throttle & Combat Rudder Pedals, TrackIR 5
Sims: FSX Gold, REX 2.0 OD, UTX-NA, FSGenesis 10m mesh/ CFS3 ETO 1.40/Wings Over Flanders Fields Ultimate Edition (more gorgeous than ever!)
Proud BOC inductee 4/30/12!
#4432958 - 08/04/18 01:21 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
DukeIronHand Offline
Hotshot
DukeIronHand  Offline
Hotshot

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 7,529
High over the Front
Originally Posted by Nowi
Details!

I witnessed the death of my wingman who flew into the balloon. I had completed my pass and was looking back at the balloon to time my reverse for another pass, when I saw my trailing wingman fly into the balloon, which exploded.

The other instances of two mates colliding with each other occurred on escort sorties during which we never encountered any hostile aircraft. I fly with the Display on, set for aircraft, and I can see (at least when we are not in clouds) the silhouettes of the other planes. During turns, I could see the dots collide and spiral down.

Almost all of these collisions occur during escort missions. Most occur when the two-seater reverses after reaching its target.

A particular issue seems to plague the French. (I have not seen it with German or British aircraft.) The problem of collisions seems to be linked to escort sorties when the escorting scouts are of different speeds. For example, my last French career I was leading in a N 17, but my flight mates were all in much faster Spad VIIs. Generally, things proceed as follows. I am flying behind and above the escort, let's say a slower Brit Quirk. Gradually, I gain on the Quirk until I am right above it. Simultaneously, the Spads are gaining on me until they are slightly ahead of me, their leader. At this point, the other planes in my flight do "Crazy Ivans" and spiral off in different directions to get back into trailing positions. My plane, under AI control, does a 360 to get back into a trailing position. Kaboom!

Virtually all of these collisions occur playing under AI control at 12x. My plan is to slow down during course changes in the future to see if that helps. But I don't have the time to play this game at 1X. Some of these escort hops take 80 minutes in real time.

Pol said that some Mods alter the distances that the AI checks for collisions. Does anyone know which ones? Here's my current Mod list.

WOFF UE Ground Season Textures Mod by 4L0M
WOFF UE Effects Mod V1_10 by 4L0M
WOFF News mod V4.5
WOFF UE 0 - Facilities Models by Panama Red
WOFF UE V4_14 Custom d3d8 dll Settings Mod by Robert Wiggins
WOFF Rivers Mod by Olham
WOFF UE 1 - 1914+ Facilities - Full Trees Populated by Panama Red
WOFF UE 2 - Consolidated Periods and CampaignData Mod by RJW
WOFF UE 4a - Consolidated Custom Airfields Mod
WOFF UE Medals mod for PilotLogEditor java applet by JJJ65
New WOFF InSim Map by Nibbio
WOFF UE - (300) BT & FPS Improvement (High Quality) by Panama Red
WOFF UE OCM V2.9.2 - 1 Clouds Folder (required)
WOFF UE OCM V2.9.2 - 2 BB Fog Option
04 September to December 1916 V3_1 by OldHat
Effectstrailersmoke

I flew for years in Air Warrior. There were no collisions. You could fly right through people. Realistic? Obviously not. But I know that I instinctively would try to avoid collisions anyway. I also seem to recall that there was an option you could turn on or off in Red Baron.

I'm just tired of playing for hours and developing a pilot only to see him killed in a collision. I back up regularly and can restore the guy when he dies, but it gets annoying after a while, especially if you've been flying six sorties, get killed in a collision on the sixth, and lose everything you accomplished--kills, medals, promotions--when you restore.

Thanks!

Nowi


In thinking I know where the settings are for AI behavior I don’t think any of the mods listed are the issue.
Got some more household crap to do before I fire up WOFF - I’ll pay close attention.

#4432960 - 08/04/18 01:30 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,336
Hellshade Online content
Hellshade
Hellshade  Online Content
Hellshade
Senior Member

Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 4,336
Florida
Originally Posted by Nowi
Details!

I'm just tired of playing for hours and developing a pilot only to see him killed in a collision.

Nowi


Set your Pilot to Easy Outcome - pilot never dies in Workshop. If you die for what you believe is a legitimate reason, he's dead. If he dies for what you believe is a bogus reason, just go ahead and fly your next mission. No need to restore old backups and no lost history.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4432963 - 08/04/18 01:48 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Hellshade]  
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,707
Robert_Wiggins Online smile
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Robert_Wiggins  Online Smile
BWOC Survivor!...So Far!!
Hotshot

Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 7,707
Lindsay, Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted by Hellshade
Originally Posted by Nowi
Details!

I'm just tired of playing for hours and developing a pilot only to see him killed in a collision.

Nowi


Set your Pilot to Easy Outcome - pilot never dies in Workshop. If you die for what you believe is a legitimate reason, he's dead. If he dies for what you believe is a bogus reason, just go ahead and fly your next mission. No need to restore old backups and no lost history.


Nowi;

It is always a good practice to download the "User Files Backup Utility" from the Mods "Tools" page. It is not only good for recovering lost pilots but also useful when you experience system failures in WOFF because you can restore all your pilots and WOFF settings.
The tool not only backs up files, it also allows you to launch WOFF. I make it a practice of running this tool first and then launching WOFF from it.

Best Regards


(System_Specs)
Case: Cooler Master Storm Trooper
PSU: Ultra X3,1000-Watt
MB: Asus Maximus VI Extreme
Mem: Corsair Vengeance (2x 8GB), PC3-12800, DDR3-1600MHz, Unbuffered
CPU: Intel i7-4770K, OC to 4.427Ghz
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Seidon 240M Liquid CPU Cooler
Vid Card: ASUS GTX 980Ti STRIX 6GB
OS and Games on separate: Samsung 840 Series 250GB SSD
Monitor: Primary ASUS PG27AQ 4k; Secondary Samsung SyncMaster BX2450L
Periphs: MS Sidewinder FFB2 Pro, TrackIR 4

#4432973 - 08/04/18 02:59 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,339
HarryH Offline
Member
HarryH  Offline
Member

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by Nowi
Can collisions be made optional? Something that can be turned on or off?

I know, collisions are "realistic." Boelcke lost his life in a collision. BUT....

I quit playing a French career, which I began after my careers in a DH2 and another in a Fokker Triplane ended in collisions, when it likewise and frustratingly ended in yet another collision during the landing circle parade. I, thankfully, had the campaign backed up. I restarted and guess what? I died on the next mission in another collision. (What is it with the AI's inability to control French aircraft on escort sorties?)


Hi Nowi,

I'm currently flying a French pilot career (similar list of mods to yours), Nieuport 11, May 1916, south of Verdun. I've completed 7 missions thus far, 3 of them escort missions and 0 collisions. I led maybe 3 of them, the rest I was wingman. I do fly mostly 1 x because I have the time and I enjoy it. However, I occasionally will time compress on long journeys home etc., but I NEVER leave TC on if enemy are around or if I'm anywhere near the lines, targets, etc.. AI "mistakes" do seem to increase with TC in my experience. Always be ready to pause in TC and step it back down to 1X asap if trouble starts.

In my early days with WOFF I lost pilots to collisions quite often, but not these days. This sim is very demanding, especially if you have the wind enabled and you are flying the early planes like the EIII (that thing is a nightmare to control in combat). Part of my original struggles were down to system performance. It's hard to fly in formation at 25FPS with stutters! The rest of it, I believe, is down to putting in the hours to develop one's control of the planes and learning how the AI formation tends to behave so that you can keep out of their way. Your example of leading in a slower plane is interesting. I have noticed the AI will try super hard to stay with a human flight leader that isn't necessarily flying how the AI formation is used to flying, which can cause some interesting AI aerobatics. I would try leading in at least an on-par machine with the rest of the flight.

As others have mentioned, balloons can claim their share of victims, but generally they are easy to knock out. Another thing worth checking is the skill level of your Escadrille. Try to fly with an elite group (better AI skills) and see if they fare better. Consider disabling "wind" in the workshop settings to see if that helps.

Mastering WOFF is a bit like learning to play the guitar. It's painfully slow progress at first but wonderfully rewarding in time. I've probably put in around 2,000 hours so far and I finally have formation flying down, but I still struggle in combat.

H


System: i5 8600K @ 3.6GHz,16GB DDR4 @2666MHz. RTX2080, MSI Z370 mobo, Dell 27" G-SYNC @ 144Hz. 2560x1440

#4432980 - 08/04/18 03:33 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,315
lederhosen Offline
Member
lederhosen  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2012
Posts: 1,315
Germany
in my defence.....

I always lead (in settings)

Balloon missions;
I almost always try to do this alone / or at least try to arrive before other members do, which is kind of hard when they have better crates /
Or I don't attack myself and rather watch how they do it (mostly a collision by the first one in is the result !)

Attacking 2 seaters:

As is always the flight/staffel breaks up to attack thier own targets.
Either one wingman has toooo much speed in a dive and ends up taking both out.
Or 2 wingmen cant make up thier mind as to who's kill this is gona be, and they end up crashing into each other.

other occations: I have even seen enemy formations crash into each other for what ever reason (formation change?) way off in the distance.

To be fair though, this sort of thing does not happen all the time, but enough to make one take it into account when planning an attack.
It's a fact of life (Sim life that is) and we just gotta get on with it. War's Hell and AI pilots die, basta.
That is , unless he is an ACE who by way of God's intervention survives such things.

Last edited by lederhosen; 08/04/18 03:35 PM.

make mistakes and learn from them

I5 4440 3.1Ghz, Asrock B85m Pro3, Gtx 1060 3GB
#4433011 - 08/04/18 07:01 PM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Nowi Offline
Member
Nowi  Offline
Member

Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 475
Florida
Thanks for the suggestions.

I do already use the backup utility, religiously.

Hellshade, great suggestion. I set it to easy. I haven't been killed yet, but I apparently can get wounded (tried that in practice), which is great.

I'm also slowing down the time compression whenever the route changes more than 45 degrees. Hopefully, this will prevent so many of my comrades from killing each other.

BTW, why does the compression rate change? Sometimes its 1, 2, 3, 6, 12, and other times its 1, 2, 4, 8, 12. Anyone know?

Thanks.

Nowi


Nowi
#4433222 - 08/06/18 02:26 AM Re: Collisions!!!! [Re: Nowi]  
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 674
CatKnight Offline
Member
CatKnight  Offline
Member

Joined: May 2014
Posts: 674
Cleveland, OH, US
Time compression can definltely mess up the AI. (And you if you're on autopilot)

I found most of the collisions my team was suffering were my fault. I made an awkward maneuver, and everyone scattered to get the heck out of my way. Not always, but usually I'm the one disrupting formation.

I saw you mentioned landing formations - the great circle. Can't help you there as I don't honor it. I can get down much quicker (and safer) than my chums when it's time.


Moderated by  Polovski 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Avenger Emergency landing
by KRT_Bong. 04/18/21 01:39 PM
Picard S2 preview is teeming with Easter Eggs
by NoFlyBoy. 04/18/21 02:01 AM
This is a great question! It's making me hungry.
by NoFlyBoy. 04/18/21 12:35 AM
NHL Playoffs are coming
by WangoTango. 04/17/21 07:49 PM
24 hrs. after Pfizer #2...
by MarkG. 04/16/21 06:18 PM
Helen McCrory: Peaky Blinders actress dies aged 52
by WangoTango. 04/16/21 05:16 PM
Eating Healty
by Bill_Grant. 04/16/21 04:51 PM
UFO footage from USS Russell - declassified
by Mr_Blastman. 04/16/21 03:18 AM
Someone needs a laugh....
by Bill_Grant. 04/15/21 08:31 PM
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0