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#4428419 - 07/01/18 02:21 PM Babylon 5.... YES it does get good!  
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I've never seen the series but I've always heard how great it was, even "the best SciFi series EVA!" according to some.

Now it's on Amazon and my wife and I have started watching. We're half way through season 1 and so far it's been, for the most part, a big yawn fest. I like Garibaldi and the three main ambassador characters (Minbari, Narn, Centauri) but everyone else is pretty lackluster. And the stories are mediocre at best, so far, and some of the dialog is cringeworthy. It was made a few years after TNG started but the look of the series is closer to TOS. I've seen the same external cut scenes of the station 30+ times in the first 10 episodes.

How long do I suffer through until it gets good? Or do I cut my losses now and start re-watching SG1 on Hulu instead (which was my plan before B5 came to Amazon)?

Last edited by F4UDash4; 05/11/23 01:06 PM. Reason: Changed Title from "when does it get good" ;)

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#4428423 - 07/01/18 03:15 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Well, the first season hasn't aged well. CGI was done, no kidding, on an Amiga back then. You may want to skip the second half of S1, and look directly at Season 2. If by mid season is still doesn't grab you, maybe it simply isn't for you. Also, of course, most TV memories are rose tinted because at the time they may have been decent, but they were overtaken by style and production values ever since. Still, B5 has reasonably decent space combat concepts that aren't entirely rubbish, and unlike Star Trek it has one continuous storyline which made it very much different at the time.

#4428434 - 07/01/18 04:41 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Season 1 is alot of background buildup and character building, but not that much which is essensial.

#4428479 - 07/01/18 09:56 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Season 2 when Boxleitner comes on. It’s all part of a plan over season 1, it will all come into play in subsequent seasons. The first season is better once you’ve seen the rest of the series, on a second viewing, since you pick up on things that you didn’t know would be relevant. Tough out the “conflict of the week” and it will take off. seasons 2-4 are the best scifi on tv or otherwise IMO, but yeah, season one the first time does drag a bit.
Don’t forget the background movie “In the Beginnning”. It doesn’t spoil later events, just hints at it. Give that a go whenever you want. It’s a frame story set in the future and tells the story of the Earth-Minbari war that is always referenced and will set up season 2 well although that isn’t when it came out originally.


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#4428499 - 07/01/18 11:13 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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“In the Beginning” has major spoilers concerning Sinclair so I do not recommend watching it until after you have finished season 3.


As for season 1, it has multiple problems and they are mostly related to the bare bones budget that the producers were given.

1. Lots of crappy campy acting from second rate guest stars and supporting actors.

2. There are several stand-alone episodes that have mediocre and forgettable stories.

3. Michael O’Hare did not have the necessary screen presence to be the lead of the show.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/01/18 11:42 PM.

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#4428500 - 07/01/18 11:38 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Thanks all, we'll stick with it!


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#4428501 - 07/01/18 11:44 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Forgot to say that the show gets much better in season 2 and seasons 3 and 4 are absolute gold. Season 5 is good as well but there are multiple changes that you may or may not care for.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/02/18 10:09 AM.

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#4428527 - 07/02/18 03:32 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I don’t consider there to be spoilers in the movie until you’ve watched the series. Spoilers only in retrospect. I saw it beforehand at the time when it aired and nothing was tipped off.
It was put out when the show was sold to another channel (TNT? Iforget) to stir up new fans to watch the reruns they aired in order and prepare for the final season. It’s fine to watch.


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#4428533 - 07/02/18 04:02 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Just to note on O'hare was supposed to carry on throughout the show, but due to mental health issues, only just revealed, had to leave the series.

#4428535 - 07/02/18 04:14 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I didn’t know that. I ultimately came to like the character, more when absent, and O’Hare himself seems likable, but Boxleitner MAKES the show. Lots of great characters, actors and character arcs, but Bruce made the show his. Sheridan is still a character I name game characters after, and countless ships and mechs have been the Agamemnon. LOL
F4U...hang in there until you get to John Sheridan.
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The show also has epic season ending episodes, I love how each season is a year.


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#4428537 - 07/02/18 04:20 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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He was suffering with paranoid schizophrenia.. Having hallucinations on set etc.

Jms promised to keep is a secret until O'hare passed away. (I said recently but it seems this has been known now since about 2013... But I didn't hear until last year)

#4428538 - 07/02/18 04:22 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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You never know what someone is living with.


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#4428559 - 07/02/18 10:32 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
I don’t consider there to be spoilers in the movie until you’ve watched the series. Spoilers only in retrospect. I saw it beforehand at the time when it aired and nothing was tipped off.
It was put out when the show was sold to another channel (TNT? Iforget) to stir up new fans to watch the reruns they aired in order and prepare for the final season. It’s fine to watch.



The movie reveals that Sinclair is Valen and that the Minbari had placed Sinclair on Babylon 5 entirely by their own design. If you watch the movie before you watch the show, it destroys that entire mystery with Sinclair's character.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4428560 - 07/02/18 10:33 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Khai]  
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Originally Posted by Khai
Just to note on O'hare was supposed to carry on throughout the show, .



That is not accurate. The original plan by JMS was to have Sinclair on the show until sometime in the middle of season 3 and then Sheridan would come in. So the replacement was supposed to happen at that time instead of right after season 1.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4428571 - 07/02/18 12:54 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
I don’t consider there to be spoilers in the movie until you’ve watched the series. Spoilers only in retrospect. I saw it beforehand at the time when it aired and nothing was tipped off.
It was put out when the show was sold to another channel (TNT? Iforget) to stir up new fans to watch the reruns they aired in order and prepare for the final season. It’s fine to watch.



The movie reveals that Sinclair is Valen and that the Minbari had placed Sinclair on Babylon 5 entirely by their own design. If you watch the movie before you watch the show, it destroys that entire mystery with Sinclair's character.


True but not necessarily obvious without hindsight. At the time, it just seemed there was a relationship between the races that wasn’t understood. If it was that easy the story would’ve turned on the spot, but even theMinbari didn’t know what it meant until later when the event actually takes place. They thought it only meant he was somehow a descendant and that Minbari souls were being reborn as humans. It’s still a big reveal and clarifies everything.


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#4428682 - 07/03/18 04:15 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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This B5 thread has reminded me about all of the actors from the show who are no longer with us. frown

Richard Biggs - Dr. Stephen Franklin
Tim Choate - Zathras
Jerry Doyle - Michael Garibaldi
Michael O’Hare - Jeffrey Sinclair
Stephen Furst - Vir Cotto
Andreas Katsulas - G’kar
Jeff Conaway - Zack Allen


Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/03/18 04:24 AM.

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#4428903 - 07/04/18 09:12 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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It is such a shame that the original high resolution CGI got lost/wiped as it looks really bad on the big screen now.

And what is not to love about Alfred Bester in the series made a good transition from TOS wink

the complete collection:
[Linked Image]


Must watch this again after I have cleared out my to watch list smile


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#4428915 - 07/04/18 10:37 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I'm with Raw Kryptonite on the is one. I watched the original movie/pilot when it first aired and I didn't have a friggen clue about what all it setup until things got there in the actual series. Now part of that was I wasn't binge watching 5 years of TV in a week. I can see where if you didn't see it originally and have had to wait several years to put the pieces together it could come off as a spoiler. However I think unless you really key on the movie and think way too hard about what all COULD be going on, it's really not going to spoil much.

-Jenrick

#4428919 - 07/04/18 10:45 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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You are referring to “The Gathering” Jenrick. The movie with the spoilers is “In the Beginning”.


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#4428929 - 07/05/18 01:00 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt
It is such a shame that the original high resolution CGI got lost/wiped as it looks really bad on the big screen now.

And what is not to love about Alfred Bester in the series made a good transition from TOS wink

the complete collection:

Must watch this again after I have cleared out my to watch list smile


Walter Koenig was so good on this show! I love all of the Bester episodes. He was so condescending it was hilarious. I wish they had made the Telepath War a spinoff.


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#4428930 - 07/05/18 01:03 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
You are referring to “The Gathering” Jenrick. The movie with the spoilers is “In the Beginning”.


I still disagree. I saw the first few episodes when the show first aired but didn’t stay with it. Later I watched after seeing In the Beginning and it didn’t spoil things at all, just got me interested to watch from the start to see what the teasers were all about. Other elements were much more prevalent as well.


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#4428934 - 07/05/18 02:15 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Speaking of Walter Koenig, the irony is that the character of Bester is a million times more complex and interesting than Chekhov from Star Trek but Koenig will always primarily be known for his Chekhov role to most people.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4428953 - 07/05/18 07:58 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Maybe best remembered for Chekov but his portrayal of Bester was brilliant

I've never read the books but I believe that there is more to his story in them.

Wiki article contains spoilers to the plot

reading the synopsis of the character on Wikipedia made me laugh at Garibaldi's actions at the end smile

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Bester_%28Babylon_5%29


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#4429042 - 07/05/18 09:14 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Originally Posted by Alicatt
It is such a shame that the original high resolution CGI got lost/wiped as it looks really bad on the big screen now.

And what is not to love about Alfred Bester in the series made a good transition from TOS wink

the complete collection:

Must watch this again after I have cleared out my to watch list smile


Walter Koenig was so good on this show! I love all of the Bester episodes. He was so condescending it was hilarious. I wish they had made the Telepath War a spinoff.


It would have been a better spinoff than Legend of the Rangers. Or maybe they would have just half assed that too. Maybe it's best they didn't make anymore.

#4429052 - 07/05/18 10:42 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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“Legend of the Rangers” had potential but unfortunately some of the actors used were terrible.


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#4429057 - 07/05/18 11:12 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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We're a few episodes into season 2 now, definitely improved over season 1.


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#4429058 - 07/05/18 11:14 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Crusade was no gem either, although I’d like to see it again. Just makes me wonder WTF JMS was thinking with so much good material to use for another series in the universe. That movie a few years back was terrible too. Or whatever it was, a couple of short stories or something?


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#4429060 - 07/05/18 11:15 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
We're a few episodes into season 2 now, definitely improved over season 1.


Glad to hear it! It keeps getting better and better.


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#4429096 - 07/06/18 03:28 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Crusade was no gem either, although I’d like to see it again. Just makes me wonder WTF JMS was thinking with so much good material to use for another series in the universe. That movie a few years back was terrible too. Or whatever it was, a couple of short stories or something?



I really like Crusade and it gave us the most excellent character of G a l e n the technomage.

“Lost Tales” is the movie from a few years ago that you mentioned and the fundamental problem is that JMS only got a paltry 2 million from Warner Brothers to make it. That’s really a super bare-bones budget and it really showed on-screen. By comparison, the two dvd movies for Stargate each had a budget of about 10 million.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/06/18 04:39 PM.

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#4429149 - 07/06/18 03:21 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Don't give up! Babylon is awesome.

#4429182 - 07/06/18 08:04 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Crusade was no gem either, although I’d like to see it again. Just makes me wonder WTF JMS was thinking with so much good material to use for another series in the universe. That movie a few years back was terrible too. Or whatever it was, a couple of short stories or something?



I really like Crusade and it gave us the most excellent character of G a l e n the technomage.

“Lost Tales” is the movie from a few years ago that you mentioned and the fundamental problem is that JMS only got a paltry 2 million from Warner Brothers to make it. That’s really a super bare-bones budget and it really showed on-screen. By comparison, the two dvd movies for Stargate each had a budget of about 10 million.

With G a l e n being played by Peter Woodward the son of Edward Woodward, I did quite like his portrayal of the technomage and would have liked the Crusade series to continue.

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#4429801 - 07/10/18 10:31 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Early on I liked Londo Mollari, but now (middle of season 3) he is turning into Hitler! Or maybe Napoleon is more appropriate. Anxious to see how things develop.

Also really like how the show, thus far, treats religion. They've touched on Judaism, Christianity, alien religions as well as atheism and have treated all equally. I'm impressed. Of course this was made 25 years ago.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4429813 - 07/10/18 11:53 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The Londo and G’Kar arc is really good. The first season is a great baseline for their relationship as well as their people, a set up for major events.
You may remember something mentioned by Londo in the second episode of season 1 about them. The road they take and the circumstances are what makes the story. One of several great storylines.

I agree, I thought they did a good job with religion.

I started season 1 the other night. I’ve got the dvd’s, which upscale pretty well, but AmazonPrime streaming is so convenient, even if not as good looking. LOL


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#4429853 - 07/11/18 10:34 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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By far, Londo is my favorite character from Babylon 5. Not only was the actor (Peter Jurasik) perfectly cast for the role but the character arc written by JMS was absolutely brilliant.


The Londo/G'Kar duo is one of the best duos ever on any scifi show in my opinion.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4429954 - 07/12/18 01:00 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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G'Kar's awesome, too, but I love the multiple sides of Londo we got to see. But don't forget Vir!

Honestly Babylon has some of the most memorable characters in all of sci-fi.

#4429968 - 07/12/18 04:43 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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That moon-faced assassin of joy!
IIRC Peter adlibbed most of the Vir insults. LOL


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#4430079 - 07/12/18 08:35 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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The show was shot in wide screen but broadcast in 4x3 format. The widescreen is interesting, and, I am suprised that the episodes have not been restored/cleaned up for disc release.

The first season is a bit rough but, like every other season it contains story seeds that don't show up intil later. B5 is very much like an onion with a gazillion layers. It is a very complex series.

P.S. Harlan Ellison, one of the creators and occasional character passed this year.

#4430084 - 07/12/18 08:55 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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While the live was shot wide, unfortunately the cg was rendered at 4:3. There's been a lot of discussion about this on various fan sites about this... The problem is the cost of re-rendering the cg to match format.....

#4430089 - 07/12/18 09:14 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Khai]  
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Originally Posted by Khai
While the live was shot wide, unfortunately the cg was rendered at 4:3. There's been a lot of discussion about this on various fan sites about this... The problem is the cost of re-rendering the cg to match format.....

The CGI does not upscale well to the 200" screen I have, it is really quite jarring when a scene with a lot of CGI in it comes on,


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#4430140 - 07/13/18 02:46 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Alicatt]  
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Originally Posted by Alicatt
Originally Posted by Khai
While the live was shot wide, unfortunately the cg was rendered at 4:3. There's been a lot of discussion about this on various fan sites about this... The problem is the cost of re-rendering the cg to match format.....

The CGI does not upscale well to the 200" screen I have, it is really quite jarring when a scene with a lot of CGI in it comes on,



200"?????

I bet that does look crap, it even looks crap on my measly 65" screen.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4430173 - 07/13/18 10:35 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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This is exactly why you will never see a bluray set for Babylon 5. They have to be able to re-do the CGI in order for it to display properly in HD.


Warner Brothers has shown zero interest in spending the money to do that.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4430275 - 07/14/18 04:44 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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#4430396 - 07/15/18 06:02 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I’ve skipped some episodes that were less eventful...although they all advance the story at least a bit. Episode 16 of season 2 (In the Shadow of Z’Ha’Dum) is friggin huge! Have you gotten there yet?
Watching these shows, I’m reminded that Mr. Morden is one of the better antagonists in scifi. You just want to smack that guy around. LOL


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#4430419 - 07/15/18 12:44 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Oh yes, I'm approaching the end of season 3!

"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" - Vir Cotto


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4430459 - 07/15/18 05:37 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Yeah you’re getting through it!
Did you ever get to see In the Beginning? The disk that’s on also has the pilot that’s not included in season 1. Things looked a little different on the pilot.


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#4430485 - 07/15/18 09:13 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Morden was a fantastic character and it’s a shame that the actor who played the role seems to have disappeared. I haven’t seen him at all since B5 ended its run.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4430490 - 07/15/18 09:54 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I saw him in an interview, some B5 retrospective I think, but I can't remember if it was on a dvd or what? Probably around the time that most recent "movie" came out.
That's the only time I've seen him that I can think of.


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#4430507 - 07/16/18 12:40 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Yeah you’re getting through it!
Did you ever get to see In the Beginning?


No, I'll go back and watch that later.

We just started season 4 biggrin


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#4430523 - 07/16/18 06:47 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I started season 3. I love the intro for this year. I forgot about Marcus, a fan favorite.
I notice Londo gets a little more gray each season. Must be the stress. LOL


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#4430543 - 07/16/18 10:09 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Vir is almost unrecognizable in season 4, apparently Furst lost some weight.


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#4430548 - 07/16/18 10:30 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Vir is almost unrecognizable in season 4, apparently Furst lost some weight.



Stephen Furst struggled with his weight his entire life and he was constantly up and down. RIP :-(


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#4430599 - 07/16/18 05:44 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Diabetes IIRC. He did a good job of knocking the weight off and held it off.


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#4430600 - 07/16/18 05:51 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Diabetes IIRC. He did a good job of knocking the weight off and held it off.



Correct. 60 is much too young to die. frown


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4432200 - 07/29/18 06:56 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I’m on season 5 and I just now remembered the B5/TRON/Boxleitner/Peter Jurasic connection: “Londo” was the accounting program Flynn beat in the ring game, then deleted by David Warner, who had a guest role in a B5 episode.
I bet there are some others.


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#4432267 - 07/29/18 11:30 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The Tron/Babylon 5 connection is indeed very cool. Also, Peter Jurasik had a long running recurring role on “Hill Street Blues”. That role was probably what he was mostly known for before his role on Babylon 5.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/30/18 12:54 AM.

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#4432271 - 07/30/18 12:53 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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First 5 or so episodes of season 5 were a bit dull but things are picking up again midseason!


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#4432272 - 07/30/18 12:54 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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F4UDash4, I'm interested in hearing what you thought overall, once you've finished watching it. smile


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#4432273 - 07/30/18 12:57 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
First 5 or so episodes of season 5 were a bit dull but things are picking up again midseason!



The first half of season 5 is mostly introducing Lochley and the telepath revolt under Byron. The second half certainly deals with much bigger universal concerns. smile


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#4432280 - 07/30/18 03:09 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
F4UDash4, I'm interested in hearing what you thought overall, once you've finished watching it. smile




That assessment will only take a couple of more days at most wink

I'll say now that I have been very impressed, wish I had watched this years ( or a couple of decades) ago.


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#4432390 - 07/31/18 11:23 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Once you are done with season 5 F4U, don't forget to watch the tv movie "A Call to Arms" which then leads into the very short lived spinoff show "Crusade".

Oh, also watch the tv movie "River of Souls" which takes place after season 5 and it's mostly a stand-alone story.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 07/31/18 11:24 AM.

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#4432435 - 08/01/18 01:42 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Arthonon
F4UDash4, I'm interested in hearing what you thought overall, once you've finished watching it. smile




That assessment will only take a couple of more days at most wink

I'll say now that I have been very impressed, wish I had watched this years ( or a couple of decades) ago.


It thought that exact same thing when I watched it all about a year ago.

I would agree that "A Call to Arms" and it's spinoff show "Crusade" are worth a watch.
Just whatever you do, avoid "Legend of the Rangers"

#4432439 - 08/01/18 02:17 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Well we finished it and it is a great series. Season one was as i stated before very slow, seasons 2-4 were great and season 5 started slow but got real good by mid season. Loosing Ivanova was a big loss for the show, I never got to liking here replacement Capt whatshername.

I didn't care for the last episode. I understand why it was done the way it was, we had already seen how Londo and G'Kar end up, but I missed having them in teh episode and also missed learning something about what they (especially G'Kar) were up to over the past 20 years. And for all the evil Londo was responsible for throughout the show I hated how he ended up a slave to the neck creature.

I really don't like series ending on a down note so Sheridan not finding a way around the 20 year time limit on his life was a downer too. And were was Bester in the end? Did Garibaldi ever get his revenge? What became of Lennier?


Great series, yes. Best scifi ever, no. But well worth the watch.


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#4432443 - 08/01/18 03:03 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Thanks for the update. I found season 5 to be a little weak, and I think that's because, if I recall correctly, JMS was told that there wouldn't be a fifth season so he started wrapping the story up, but then found out during season 4 that a 5th season had been approved, so he had to fill it in.

I actually appreciate a show that's willing to stick to its story and go for an ending that's not all rosy, especially back then, when it wasn't as common. It keeps the impact of events as more significant, in my opinion. In the old Star Trek series, a major character would die, or be given a terminal diagnosis, but we all knew the they would never really die, so there wasn't a lot of tension in the story. In B5, major characters were killed, so it you were never sure if some character might actually get killed off, adding a lot of excitement to the show for me. And they would do stuff that they would probably never do in ST:TNG, like get revenge on someone ("Walk into the garden, you will see.").

I'm glad you enjoyed it!


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#4432446 - 08/01/18 03:19 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I'm not against major characters dying in a series, just not in the last episode. Like how they killed Trip in the last episode of "Enterprise", just unnecessary. Of course with Sheridan it was different because it was predicted.


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#4432451 - 08/01/18 03:43 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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They mentioned a couple of times predicting his “end”, with Kosh sending him a message on day of the dead telling him where to go. Plus no body was found. Either they’re going for a Christ figure...a stretch with Sheridan...or they left it open for the mythology if not an actual following story. If all that was going to happen was literally he’d “just stop” there wouldbe no point in his instructions. Who knows. Makes for a more interesting story.

They were dropped by the channel, UPN, IIRC, so had to rush an ending at season 4. Then TNT picked them up. Claudia had already made a commitment so had to be written out. With the way season 4 ended for her, it was kind of fitting. I agree she was missed. Scoggins wasn’t bad, but it’s hard to walk in on the final season of a complex show and blend in.

In S5, I notice Londo lost the gray hair, at least at the point I’m at. For some reason Sheridan has red hair. LOL I’ve only seen this season twice, I usually stop at the end of season 4 when I’ve watched before.


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#4432461 - 08/01/18 10:35 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite


They were dropped by the channel, UPN, .



It was PTEN not UPN.

PTEN was going under so it was all of their shows which got dropped.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4432469 - 08/01/18 01:05 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Oh and the Lennier trying to kill Sheridan thing, totally unbelievable to me. That just wasn't in his character, not from what was seen of him for the previous 5 years.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4432472 - 08/01/18 01:07 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Oh and the Lennier trying to kill Sheridan thing, totally unbelievable to me. That just wasn't in his character, not from what was seen of him for the previous 5 years.



Agreed. It just seemed to be a very sudden and "out there" thing for Lennier to do.

Ok, so he was jealous that Delenn didn't have romantic feelings for him but she had them for Sheridan. Big whoop. Someone like Lennier would not have lost it like that and gone so far as to let Sheridan die.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4432482 - 08/01/18 02:30 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
And were was Bester in the end? Did Garibaldi ever get his revenge?

And to quote the B5 Wiki entry about Bester...

Quote
Following the Telepath War, Alfred Bester was wanted for war crimes that he committed. He was planned to appear in the Crusade episode "Value Judgments", written by Fiona Avery, on the run from the authorities and being sought by Garibaldi's agents. The episode would have shown him encountering the crew of the Excalibur, who require a powerful telepath to open a lock that responds to powerful telepathy. The episode would have ended with him escaping once again.

He spent several years on the run before moving to Paris, France, where he fell in love with a local businesswoman named Louise. But Michael Garibaldi was relentless in his pursuit, and eventually tracked him down. Bester was brought before the war crimes tribunal, and was tried in France for his crimes. He was sentenced to life in prison and subjected to the Sleeper drugs that deprived him of his telepathic abilities. During that time, a statue was even made of the lost child of Fiona. He then spent the next 10 years in a maximum-security prison, and died shortly after the death of John Sheridan in 2281. The very day before his death, he finally accepted that he was indeed the 'lost child' of Matthew and Fiona Dexter, and his left fist finally reopened as a result. Even in death, Garibaldi pursued him. After Bester's funeral, Garibaldi went to the gravesite and hammered a wooden stake into the ground above Bester's coffin. This quite amused a departing watcher, who was fully aware of what Bester had done and been in life.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Bester_%28Babylon_5%29

A fitting end smile


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#4432499 - 08/01/18 03:50 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Oh and the Lennier trying to kill Sheridan thing, totally unbelievable to me. That just wasn't in his character, not from what was seen of him for the previous 5 years.



Agreed. It just seemed to be a very sudden and "out there" thing for Lennier to do.

Ok, so he was jealous that Delenn didn't have romantic feelings for him but she had them for Sheridan. Big whoop. Someone like Lennier would not have lost it like that and gone so far as to let Sheridan die.


Same thoughts here. I thought that his feelings toward Delenn made sense, as did his putting distance between them, but I didn’t think he would have any real animosity towards Sheridan. He’d gotten along well with him, spending a lot of time on the white star etc. where they got along fine. It was a grab at drama, and a cheap one. Season 5 has a lot of the same feeling as season 1, just kind of floating around although you know it’s building up to something.


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#4625068 - 04/19/23 01:01 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Well it has been almost 5 years and we're watching it again. 3/4 into season 2.

Still a great show!


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4625077 - 04/19/23 01:34 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Well it has been almost 5 years and we're watching it again. 3/4 into season 2.

Still a great show!



B5 is one of my top 5 greatest sci-fi shows of all time even with the production flaws and spotty acting in season 1.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4625154 - 04/19/23 11:12 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Morden was a fantastic character and it’s a shame that the actor who played the role seems to have disappeared. I haven’t seen him at all since B5 ended its run.



I was rereading this thread and also saw Morden in an episode this evening and I looked him up:

https://waterstoneconstruction.net/about-us/


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4625162 - 04/20/23 02:50 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Great find, looks like he is probably doing well, if not in show business.


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#4625164 - 04/20/23 03:05 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
Great find, looks like he is probably doing well, if not in show business.



Wow, great find indeed!! It's too bad his acting career didn't really pan out for the long term considering that he showed quite a lot of talent on B5.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 04/20/23 10:34 AM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4625508 - 04/26/23 02:47 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Londo Mollari is one of the most fascinating characters ever portrayed on TV, IMO.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4625509 - 04/26/23 02:54 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Londo Mollari is one of the most fascinating characters ever portrayed on TV, IMO.



Agreed. That role was Peter Jurasik's "tour de force" in my opinion and he had a very long acting career. HIs 5 year character arc is nothing short of amazing and compelling.


I think G'Kar also falls under that category as well as far as I'm concerned. It was really Londo and G'Kar which hooked me when I watched "The Gathering" for the first time.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4625512 - 04/26/23 03:08 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I caught part of an interview of Jurasik and one of the interviewers stated "without Londo and G'Kar we wouldn't be here talking about B5 20 plus years later"

Very true.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4625726 - 04/29/23 02:31 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The guy who played Emperor Cartagia is also no longer acting, he's a lawyer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Krimmer


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4625742 - 04/29/23 10:45 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The guy who played Emperor Cartagia is also no longer acting, he's a lawyer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Krimmer



Nice find. I have no clue about his other roles that he may have done but he did a great job as Cartagia.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4626085 - 05/06/23 11:57 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Another B5 cast who died far too young, "Zathras" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Choate


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626102 - 05/06/23 03:02 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Another B5 cast who died far too young, "Zathras" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Choate



Yeah, a very tragic motorcycle accident. At the other end of the spectrum, the main cast of ST: TOS has had much better luck with longevity. Deforest Kelley was the first to go and he was 79.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4626175 - 05/08/23 01:23 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Lochley is ok to look at but what an underwhelming character otherwise.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626187 - 05/08/23 10:34 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Lochley is ok to look at but what an underwhelming character otherwise.



I think the main factor there is that the character was a last minute/rushed creation by JMS when it became official that Claudia Christian would not return for season 5. I agree with your assessment though and will say that the Lochley character was just "meh".


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4626227 - 05/08/23 07:04 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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How would you rate the B5 TV movies?

My rankings:

1. In the Beginning

2. A Call to Arms

3. Third Space

4. River of Souls

5. The Gathering


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#4626229 - 05/08/23 07:23 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I've not watched any of them yet.


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#4626235 - 05/08/23 08:14 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I think it's been too long since I've seen them. I'd probably move River of Souls to last place. It had a cool premise, but I don't recall much about it so it gets relegated to mostly last. Mostly on the basis that I forgot about it. Only beating out the one other movie that shall not be named.
A Call to Arms setup the spinoff Crusader series.
Third Space was a cool one off idea that I guess didn't really fit into any season or the serialized nature of the show. I liked it. I'd consider bumping this to second.
In the Beginning rehashes a bunch of stuff anyone who's seen the series before and it spoils stuff you don't usually find out until well into the second season or so. Probably not a big deal, but it makes it hard to recommend someone to start with it. That's just nitpicking though.
That leaves The Gathering in 4th, which doesn't seem right. It introduced a lot and was a bit slow at times but there wasn't too much wrong with it. Maybe I need to rewatch all this.

#4626238 - 05/08/23 08:38 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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The last time I searched on Roku none of the B5 "movies" were available to stream


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626249 - 05/09/23 01:26 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The last time I searched on Roku none of the B5 "movies" were available to stream


That's why the best options are always physical copies or the high seas. ahoy

#4626254 - 05/09/23 10:45 AM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
The last time I searched on Roku none of the B5 "movies" were available to stream


I was under the impression that you bought all of the B5 DVD sets that came out in the early 2000's. I have my sets and will guard them closely until I die. biggrin

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/09/23 10:45 AM.

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#4626365 - 05/11/23 12:49 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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We finished the series last night. Found that Roku does have "The Gathering" so we will probably watch it tonight.


I swear there were several episodes I must have missed the first time 5 years ago, because I never remembered anything about them this time.

But I am left with several questions:

Is Vir being controlled by the Drakh?

Did Sheridan give his son the "gift" from Londo when he turned 16?

Did G'Kar / Lyta ever return? Obviously G'Kar came back long enough to kill Londo, if Londo's vision of his own death was true.


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626367 - 05/11/23 12:58 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4

Is Vir being controlled by the Drakh?

Did Sheridan give his son the "gift" from Londo when he turned 16?

Did G'Kar / Lyta ever return? Obviously G'Kar came back long enough to kill Londo, if Londo's vision of his own death was true.




It's been like 5 years since I've seen the series but I seem to remember that it was only Londo who was under the control o the Drakh. Once he died and Vir took over the Drakh no longer had control since the assumption is that the Drakh parasite died when Londo died.

I distinctly remember the scene where Londo gives the urn with the "gift" to Sheridan but I don't think we ever see or hear anything about Sheridan giving it to David later on. If it happened, it definitely happened off-screen.

Lyta's exile and subsequent return is fully explained in the Telepath War novels that came out in the late 90's but it is never explained in the tv series itself.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4626368 - 05/11/23 01:08 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
The first season is better once you’ve seen the rest of the series, on a second viewing, since you pick up on things that you didn’t know would be relevant.



True!


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626370 - 05/11/23 01:45 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I hope Raw Kryptonite is doing well. He disappeared a long time ago.


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#4626371 - 05/11/23 01:59 PM Re: Babylon 5........ when does it get good? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I hope Raw Kryptonite is doing well. He disappeared a long time ago.



There's a lot of that going on here


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626396 - 05/12/23 12:31 AM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I started a couple of episodes of B5 on the PC to get some screen grabs showing the difference in CGI from season 1 to season 5. The difference actually seems more pronounced on my 60" TV, I don't think I am getting full res on the PC. Anywho...


Season 1 episode 1
[Linked Image]


Season 5 episode 1
[Linked Image]

Attached Files S1E1.jpgS5E1.jpg
Last edited by F4UDash4; 05/12/23 12:32 AM.

"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626412 - 05/12/23 11:20 AM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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I fully admit that when I first watched B5, I was struck by the really crappy looking special effects but both the story and the characters eventually turned out to be so compelling that I actually ignored the crappy looking effects after a while.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4626422 - 05/12/23 04:52 PM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
I fully admit that when I first watched B5, I was struck by the really crappy looking special effects but both the story and the characters eventually turned out to be so compelling that I actually ignored the crappy looking effects after a while.

Yes, it's the same reason the original Star Trek holds up.


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#4626490 - 05/13/23 06:02 PM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Watched "The Gathering" last night.

The changes in makeup for Delenn, G'Kar and Londo were all for the best. Delenn in particular looked horrible.

Peter Jurasik is just a phenomenal actor. The Londo arc is both awesome and heartbreaking. His "speech" on the downfall of the Centauri Republic ("There was a time when this whole quadrant belonged to us! What are we now? Twelve worlds and a thousand monuments to past glories. Living off memories and stories, and selling trinkets. My god, man! We've become a tourist attraction. "See the great Centauri Republic - open 9 to 5 - Earth time."") is great and delivered perfectly.

On the downside I didn't buy Takashima as second in command. Ivanova defined that role.

I did like Dr Kyle as chief of medicine.

I liked the weaponry, the "phaser" like guns, better than "PPG's".


"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
#4626549 - 05/15/23 02:53 AM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4


I did like Dr Kyle as chief of medicine.



Based on what I've read the actor who played Dr. Kyle had to back out of doing B5 due to health problems he was having at the time. He was indeed pretty good in the role but I'm glad we ended up with Richard Biggs.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4628985 - 06/16/23 01:00 PM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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CyBerkut Offline
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#4628989 - 06/16/23 02:16 PM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Arthonon Offline
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Arthonon  Offline
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Hey, cool, thanks! I had not heard of that. I'm not that into animation, but I may have to pick this up on disc.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4631476 - 07/18/23 10:59 PM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Arthonon Offline
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Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4631493 - 07/19/23 10:49 AM Re: Babylon 5.... YES it does get good! [Re: Arthonon]  
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PanzerMeyer Offline
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PanzerMeyer  Offline
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Originally Posted by Arthonon



That's great news indeed. I'll be buying it.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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