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#4428014 - 06/28/18 01:15 AM James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again  
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Supposed to fly in 2007, now talking 2021.

I understand it's a high-risk project, everything has to work - no replacements, no chance of repair at Lagrange point.
But you can only engineer it so far. Like to see it's pictures. Should be quite amazing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/nasa%E2%80%99s-next-flagship-space-telescope-is-delayed-again/ar-AAzfsZ3?li=BBnb7Kz

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4428020 - 06/28/18 02:44 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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This is not a game. Oh sure we are paying for it, but they CANNOT mess this up. Failure would affect budgets for decades, if not generations. There is an anti-science movement happening in this country, and that movement doesn't need any more "raw meat" than it already has.

There will be no pretty pictures. This is not an upgraded Hubble. Assuming no failure it will study in frequencies we cannot see with our eyes. It's the telescope equivalent of quantum computing.

Many will say "Complete waste of money". And they'll say it via things like computers or phones, completely ignorant of the fact that their own little "voice" was brought to them by science.

#4428021 - 06/28/18 02:53 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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Anti-science movement? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should make a thread in PWEC and explain.

#4428024 - 06/28/18 03:21 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Anti-science movement? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should make a thread in PWEC and explain.


"If I have to explain you wouldn't understand". You know where that phrase came from, how are they doing now? And that's as far as I'm going to go there.

#4428040 - 06/28/18 10:11 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Anti-science movement? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should make a thread in PWEC and explain.



You know, dudes claiming that they are women and such.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4428041 - 06/28/18 10:27 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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Blah....blah....blah


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4428063 - 06/28/18 01:17 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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But back on the subject of the telescope. I say it should be cancelled. It was proposed as a 1 billion dollar project it is now 8 billion dollar project and it will likly be a 10 billion dollar project before it's is flown. Utter incompetence on the part of those in charge, I'm not even confident that it'll work once it gets into space.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4428068 - 06/28/18 01:45 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
But back on the subject of the telescope. I say it should be cancelled. It was proposed as a 1 billion dollar project it is now 8 billion dollar project and it will likly be a 10 billion dollar project before it's is flown. Utter incompetence on the part of those in charge, I'm not even confident that it'll work once it gets into space.



+1

It also wouldn't surprise me if the Congressional district where this telescope is being built was being prodded and manipulated into extending the project longer than necessary by its respective members of Congress.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 06/28/18 01:47 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4428073 - 06/28/18 02:50 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Anti-science movement? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should make a thread in PWEC and explain.



You know, dudes claiming that they are women and such.



Precisely. =)

#4428074 - 06/28/18 02:51 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Zamzow]  
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Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Anti-science movement? What are you talking about? Perhaps you should make a thread in PWEC and explain.


"If I have to explain you wouldn't understand". You know where that phrase came from, how are they doing now? And that's as far as I'm going to go there.


Take it to PWEC, lest you have no point.

#4428108 - 06/28/18 08:31 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
But back on the subject of the telescope. I say it should be cancelled. It was proposed as a 1 billion dollar project it is now 8 billion dollar project and it will likly be a 10 billion dollar project before it's is flown. Utter incompetence on the part of those in charge, I'm not even confident that it'll work once it gets into space.


No denial of cost overruns here, but that's usually part of reality whenever technological envelopes are pushed hard - just like with, say, the F-35.

But is THIS the first tree you'd bark up to cut back on government spending? Really? My "point" is being made right here in this thread...

What if we spent more money on sending men back to the moon, would you be happier with that? (as many would...)

#4428125 - 06/28/18 09:35 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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A very good friend of mine is a thermal engineer with Northrop and has been working on the JWST since '08. I talked to him recently, and he said that one of the reasons for the delay is that certain tests are taking longer than was previously thought, and they are finding things that need to be addressed. C'est la vie. I'd much rather my taxpayer money go to this project, even if it is over budget, than to certain other government programs. Once that thing gets into space and starts doing its job, it should be awesome. Super excited to see what it does.

#4428128 - 06/28/18 09:50 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Zamzow]  
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Originally Posted by Zamzow
Originally Posted by F4UDash4
But back on the subject of the telescope. I say it should be cancelled. It was proposed as a 1 billion dollar project it is now 8 billion dollar project and it will likly be a 10 billion dollar project before it's is flown. Utter incompetence on the part of those in charge, I'm not even confident that it'll work once it gets into space.


No denial of cost overruns here, but that's usually part of reality whenever technological envelopes are pushed hard - just like with, say, the F-35.

But is THIS the first tree you'd bark up to cut back on government spending? Really?


First? No, but it's a good one to cut regardless. It is OBSCENELY over budget. F-35 doesn't come close. If you go back to its origin as the "Next Generation Space Telescope" it was actually supposed to only cost $500 million, that makes it TWENTY times over budget and a DECADE and a half late by the time it launches.

When would YOU decide enough is enough? $20 billion and not launching until 2035?


Originally Posted by Zamzow
My "point" is being made right here in this thread...


You think so? In that case I'm not the on lacking a "scientific" viewpoint here. JWST has sucked up funds that could have gone to other, better managed, space exploration uses. Throw in SLS / Orion and NASA has spendt $30-50 billion on 3 high profile projects since ~2000 with nothing to show for it AT ALL. Other than keeping key congressional districts happy.

Originally Posted by Zamzow
What if we spent more money on sending men back to the moon, would you be happier with that? (as many would...)


I suspect private companies are going to take care of that. At any rate, if recent history is any indication, it would take NASA until about 2050 to get back to the moon. At least when they got there they could stay in a SpaceX or Blue Origin hotel.


“Together, let us take up the challenge to reawaken America's religious and moral heart, recognizing that a deep and abiding faith in God is the rock upon which this great Nation was founded.” - Ronald Reagan, May 4, 1982
#4428141 - 06/28/18 11:36 PM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
But back on the subject of the telescope. I say it should be cancelled. It was proposed as a 1 billion dollar project it is now 8 billion dollar project and it will likly be a 10 billion dollar project before it's is flown. Utter incompetence on the part of those in charge, I'm not even confident that it'll work once it gets into space.


Obviously it has cost a heck of a lot of cash as these type of projects can't be done on the cheap. I sure hope it doesn't get cancelled.

Seeing the discoveries and new insights the Hubble made this will dwarf those and who knows what it will uncover.

Our generation had the Hubble so it is good that this will serve the next generation of astronomers.

I can remember being amazed by the pictures that Hubble produced and can't wait to see what the JWST will come up with.

Mick. smile


"An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile hoping he will be eaten last"

Winston Churchill

#4428143 - 06/29/18 12:06 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
It is OBSCENELY over budget. F-35 doesn't come close.


bs_sign

Last time I looked, F-35 is 163 BILLION over budget and seven years late, and the F-35B, the one for which everyone BUT the US is waiting for, still hasn't materialized. So the "nothing to show for" applies as well if you were, say, British.
Lockheed may not be "20 times" over the projected budget - in absolute figures James Webb is 7.5 BN over budget per your count (7 by others), which is about 5% of the overruns of the F-35. If you must compare the procurement of a weapon system with that of a major science instrument, at least get your numbers straight.

Comparing, say, the James Webb telescope with the large hadron collider (or Hubble, LIGO, the various dark matter or neutrino detection experiments) might provide a lot more insight when it comes to the (mis)management of big science projects with innate project risks - especially the need to push the boundaries of technology in order to generate data that are otherwise just not available. Hubble, for example, was projected for $1BN (inflation-adjusted for 2006 Dollars), was delivered at 4BN, and further instrument upgrades let the total budget balloon to 9BN. Was it worth it? Depends on your perspective.
The James Webb telescope will observe far-infrared wavelengths that cannot be observed in proximity to the earth. Since it can't be maintained, once that it's up there no further cost increases can happen (unlike Hubble). It's ground-breaking not only because it's a space telescope, but because it will open a segment of the electromagnetic spectrum that we KNOW to provide really good information about the oldest and farthest observable objects (the earliest galaxies), we also KNOW it to provide direct observation capability of planets outside of the solar system. This will allow us much better chances to estimate how prevalent planets really are (the current indirect methods can only detect planets that are above earth size). In short, JWT WILL be a game changer in electromagnetic astronomy. Maybe not as much as gravity wave observatories (and again, we'll need a space based contraption for optimal performance), but nevertheless it's not just a bigger version of what we already have, but open an entirely new dimension for infrared based surveys.

What are those other projects that you suggest could have been financed, had the money not gone into JWT, and what would be their contribution to science?

#4428152 - 06/29/18 01:28 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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My only hope with all the delays, is that nasa has upgraded the design to current technology standards. Remember, this instrument was design in late 90's.

In fact, I would go for a whole redesign at this point in time. Except for the optics of course. This thing has to fold up like a transformer to fit in the rocket. All those
actuators and motors have to be a reliability nightmare. Should be a better way in 2018.

And as far as tax payers money goes. This is money that you should be willing to pay to the government as it's for something worthwhile, versus all the rest of
the ways they spend money on. I'd list it out for you, but you already know, and it would get this thread locked in a heartbeat.

#4428155 - 06/29/18 01:58 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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Originally Posted by piper
My only hope with all the delays, is that nasa has upgraded the design to current technology standards. Remember, this instrument was design in late 90's.

In fact, I would go for a whole redesign at this point in time. Except for the optics of course. This thing has to fold up like a transformer to fit in the rocket. All those
actuators and motors have to be a reliability nightmare. Should be a better way in 2018.



You mean just ditch the whole thing and start over from scratch?? The "optics" as you put it, that was probably nowhere near the highest technological challenge with this project...

#4428156 - 06/29/18 02:05 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
Since it can't be maintained, once that it's up there no further cost increases can happen (unlike Hubble).


Well to be fair that could happen to some degree, but probably nowhere near as much as the Hubble servicing mission. You could someday down the road have a mission extension (if the thing works beyond expected). You could have glitches that have to be worked out (or worked around) via software. There could be discoveries made that require (and justify) throwing more brainpower into the analyses than expected. There could be data obtained that justifies new types of experimentation here on Earth (I guess that's getting a bit indirect though). That's just off the top of my head...



#4428158 - 06/29/18 02:22 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: piper]  
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Originally Posted by piper
My only hope with all the delays, is that nasa has upgraded the design to current technology standards. Remember, this instrument was design in late 90's.

In fact, I would go for a whole redesign at this point in time. Except for the optics of course. This thing has to fold up like a transformer to fit in the rocket. All those
actuators and motors have to be a reliability nightmare. Should be a better way in 2018.

And as far as tax payers money goes. This is money that you should be willing to pay to the government as it's for something worthwhile, versus all the rest of
the ways they spend money on. I'd list it out for you, but you already know, and it would get this thread locked in a heartbeat.


Please no. This is the Daikana theory of development, where one keeps chasing the changes in technology to the point where one is constantly striving to improve the wheel....only to find out that the old saw that Perfect Is The Enemy Of Good.

While we all liked to snicker that the Space Shuttle was running 1970's computers on its flight deck, the truth is that they worked, and worked well - which is why they didn't need an upgrade. The experiments and modules could be upgraded, and were.

Indeed, one of the reasons the US doesn't have rockets to bring astronauts up to and back from the ISS is that we're too proud to dust off the plans to the Saturn V rocket and build those - because they're woefully out of date. Well, it might be "ancient tech," but the darned things worked and were pretty damned reliable.

The thing about space exploration is that the benefits are almost always secondary effects through the application of tech learned. What did we gain from going to the Moon? Not a lot, really, other than a bunch of pride and a few clues about how our planet formed.

But the technology that had to be developed to get us there and back again? Whoa, Nellie, welcome to the dawn of the Information Age, courtesy of NASA and the US taxpayer. Mercury and Apollo were a tiny, tiny investment compared to the amount of economic activity generated via the research and technology breakthroughs.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.com

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"The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
#4428163 - 06/29/18 02:27 AM Re: James Webb Space Telescope...delayed again [Re: Dart]  
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Originally Posted by Dart
Originally Posted by piper
My only hope with all the delays, is that nasa has upgraded the design to current technology standards. Remember, this instrument was design in late 90's.

In fact, I would go for a whole redesign at this point in time. Except for the optics of course. This thing has to fold up like a transformer to fit in the rocket. All those
actuators and motors have to be a reliability nightmare. Should be a better way in 2018.

And as far as tax payers money goes. This is money that you should be willing to pay to the government as it's for something worthwhile, versus all the rest of
the ways they spend money on. I'd list it out for you, but you already know, and it would get this thread locked in a heartbeat.


Please no. This is the Daikana theory of development, where one keeps chasing the changes in technology to the point where one is constantly striving to improve the wheel....only to find out that the old saw that Perfect Is The Enemy Of Good.

.


Ha! Duke Nukem Forever comes to mind.......

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