Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
#4428091 - 06/28/18 05:43 PM Ailerons are overrated...  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
IceecI Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
IceecI  Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
...as we can clearly see in the video. An airplane can do well without them and the question is: How could have this been overlooked by airplane manufacturers all these years.



Give a man fish and he gets food, give a man a fishing rod and he asks for another one.
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4428109 - 06/28/18 08:32 PM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
I thought my speakers were broken there. Is the Harrier cockpit really that quiet? As for the rest of your concerns, it's either "it's a beta!" or "working as intended!!" biggrin


- Ice
#4428167 - 06/29/18 02:54 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,781
bisher Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
bisher  Offline
I'll be your Huckleberry
Veteran

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,781
Manitoba, Canada
What's with that?

My Harrier does not roll with rudder input. It slips to the side



#4428185 - 06/29/18 08:01 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
IceecI Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
IceecI  Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
Cockpit seemed very quiet, no doubt that he had the option, hear like in helmet on. But you still should hear louder than that I think.

Originally Posted by bisher
What's with that?

My Harrier does not roll with rudder input. It slips to the side


If yours doesn't do that, good. It might be that the video maker has some control issues then, actually I hope he does so it wouldn't be bug in FM or sum.


Give a man fish and he gets food, give a man a fishing rod and he asks for another one.
#4428193 - 06/29/18 09:33 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
QLD
Rather than refer to pages from my old flight training manual and give a detailed description on what is not right here....

Unless of course, Sobek, Nate and the like want the actual paper copy reference material smile




[Linked Image]

About the only thing half correct and even then it is pushing the variables is the shudder experienced near the end from moving the rudder left and right through maximums....and even then minutely experienced unless at a much lower speed.


#4428207 - 06/29/18 11:33 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
I think someone types an extra zero in the directional stability field. Rudder deflection should have a roll moment sure, but you'd think it's have a yaw moment too.

#4428239 - 06/29/18 03:56 PM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: Frederf]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Oh, it's not your video IceecI?? I thought you were the one that recorded it.

Originally Posted by Frederf
I think someone types an extra zero in the directional stability field. Rudder deflection should have a roll moment sure, but you'd think it's have a yaw moment too.

Looks like there's a little bit of yaw movement but for rudder deflection to have more roll effect than yaw effect?


- Ice
#4428258 - 06/29/18 05:55 PM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
IceecI Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
IceecI  Offline
1975-1997 R.I.P.
Member

Joined: May 2011
Posts: 258
Originally Posted by - Ice
Oh, it's not your video IceecI?? I thought you were the one that recorded it.

Originally Posted by Frederf
I think someone types an extra zero in the directional stability field. Rudder deflection should have a roll moment sure, but you'd think it's have a yaw moment too.

Looks like there's a little bit of yaw movement but for rudder deflection to have more roll effect than yaw effect?


I don't have Harrier, I'd like to try it, but when I see videos like that I feel that even 35$ is too high price for it.


Give a man fish and he gets food, give a man a fishing rod and he asks for another one.
#4428309 - 06/30/18 04:57 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 46
Mokkeri Offline
Junior Member
Mokkeri  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 46
Fake video or made with game flightmodel.

#4428312 - 06/30/18 05:17 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: Mokkeri]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 96
GrimLeo Offline
Junior Member
GrimLeo  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 96
On some older jet fighters, pilots would use rudder to roll the aircraft. The problem with the ailerons was that in certain speed ranges the ailerons flap going down would not generated the same force as the flap going up so the roll would be unbalance. See Rudder roll.

Last edited by GrimLeo; 06/30/18 05:18 AM.
#4428407 - 07/01/18 10:18 AM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: GrimLeo]  
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
Winfield Offline
model citizen
Winfield  Offline
model citizen
Member

Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 814
QLD
Originally Posted by GrimLeo
On some older jet fighters, pilots would use rudder to roll the aircraft. The problem with the ailerons was that in certain speed ranges the ailerons flap going down would not generated the same force as the flap going up so the roll would be unbalance. See Rudder roll.


after seeing that link, how old of an aircraft are you referring to here? The "rudder roll" from the link still implies stick pressure (forward or back) I tested this theory this morning in the Texan and holding full right rudder with no stick input at an altitude of 3000 eventuates into lift of the left wing followed by a very slight slight nose up, then nose down with more left wing lift and eventual "spiral dive". usually a left stick pressure with full right rudder will hold the aircraft in a "crab walk" however the theory is as I tested this morning that a full rudder will end in a spiral dive and wing over whilst the nose is pointing toward the ground in a negative format.

as for a Jet as you have stated, I believe it will have the exact same result as you have stated "unbalanced" which requires stick input. the video has absolutely no stick input and there lies the issue.

Edit In my previous response to this a couple of posts back, I overlooked the IAS of the aircraft.

Whilst I write this, I have now just rewatched the video again, the poster is asking "where is the side slip"....side slip will not occur at 330IAS but more so around 150 or less IAS (which would still require left bank of the stick to keep the aircraft from rolling over). perhaps the author of the video has not taken into consideration that you can not "crab walk" an aircraft over 150IAS or what ever the rated IAS is in that rated jet aircraft unless an opposing force on the stick is applied to keep the aircraft level, then again......what would I know I've never flown a harrier before




#4428467 - 07/01/18 08:50 PM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: IceecI]  
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Frederf Offline
Member
Frederf  Offline
Member

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,598
Lots of airplanes have roll on rudder that has a useful purpose. F-4/MiG-21 are like this. It's not surprising that rudder has roll component. What is surprising is the lack of yaw component. Stomping on the pedals should result in in the range of 5-15° beta. There should be a larger yaw response than roll response.

#4428502 - 07/01/18 11:51 PM Re: Ailerons are overrated... [Re: Winfield]  
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 96
GrimLeo Offline
Junior Member
GrimLeo  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 96
Originally Posted by Winfield
after seeing that link, how old of an aircraft are you referring to here?

The unbalanced aileron problem was found in 2nd generation jets. The F-100 was an example (see second paragraph in link).

I tried some rudder rolls on some DCS jets. The F-15 had a big rudder roll response at 450 kts. At that speed, the F-5 would yaw about 10 degrees then slowly roll. The F/A-18 had no roll response at all only yawing about 5 degrees. The FCS was on so maybe I needed to turn it off to get a roll response.


Moderated by  Force10, RacerGT 

Quick Search
Recent Articles
Support SimHQ

If you shop on Amazon use this Amazon link to support SimHQ
.
Social


Recent Topics
Are we having too many children?
by NoFlyBoy. 12/12/19 03:03 AM
Arrowverse Crisis crossover special
by Raw Kryptonite. 12/12/19 12:17 AM
Highest Scoring Aces Still Living
by F4UDash4. 12/11/19 02:18 PM
Ghostbusters : Afterlife
by Khai. 12/09/19 02:33 PM
Honey Badger doesn't give a #%&*$#
by Chucky. 12/09/19 01:51 PM
Pin-Up: World of Warships musical
by Sokol1. 12/09/19 01:40 PM
Current state of "Study" sims
by Andy T. 12/09/19 03:32 AM
René Auberjonois was 79
by F4UDash4. 12/09/19 03:23 AM
The movies coming soon thread.
by NoFlyBoy. 12/08/19 09:18 PM
Victoria Falls dead dry
by Red2112. 12/08/19 07:13 PM
Copyright 1997-2016, SimHQ Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0