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#4427429 - 06/23/18 09:56 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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If the net code was any good it would prevent physically impossible things from displaying. Jumping up and down every other second at 1000 m/s when parked is not a net code that is advanced in any way but in years.

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#4427441 - 06/23/18 10:57 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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There is no point to discuss with some people, they will blindly, or on purpose, defend whatever is made by ED no matter what. Everything bad happens is not 100% ED fault. There is always an, IMO invalid, excuse. Everything will be either made more complex than they really are so it will somehow explain everything.....who cares if there are counter proofs.....

#4427452 - 06/24/18 01:32 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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To be fair, he did not say WHEN it was supposed to be considered advanced. It may be advanced in reference to 1995 tech? biggrin


- Ice
#4427611 - 06/25/18 01:15 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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I think that you don't read unless it fits your narrative. That the missile on the two different clients may not be displayed in the same position is a known thing, and has been known for a very long time. Heck, the mechanism for how/why this happens has been known for a long time, how smile

Originally Posted by - Ice
What do you think, GG? Is that close enough, do you think? wink


Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/25/18 01:17 AM.

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#4427657 - 06/25/18 11:22 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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In my book desync are one of the most critical error to be corrected in multiplayer games...........

#4427713 - 06/25/18 07:41 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I think that you don't read unless it fits your narrative. That the missile on the two different clients may not be displayed in the same position is a known thing, and has been known for a very long time. Heck, the mechanism for how/why this happens has been known for a long time, how smile

You've just confessed that the MP sync is broken and has been known to be broken for a very long time and yet nothing has been done about it. I didn't know you supported my narrative, GG! biggrin

For a game that is focused on COMBAT (or at least claims to be), isn't accuracy of unit and weapon position paramount? I guess ED thinks it's okay to show one guy that his missle went through the target while showing the other guy that the missile missed by miles? In a high fidelity COMBAT SIMULATOR?


- Ice
#4427744 - 06/25/18 10:11 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Hey Ice...
Maybe they should rush out the F4. That missile behavior would be almost just right for the missile technology back then!

#4427748 - 06/25/18 10:53 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Nah, I don't think ED should rush anything smile But yeah, aside from the clipping issue, weren't fuzes quite unreliable back then? biggrin


- Ice
#4427893 - 06/27/18 01:52 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
You've just confessed that the MP sync is broken and has been known to be broken for a very long time and yet nothing has been done about it. I didn't know you supported my narrative, GG! biggrin


Oh a confession! I haven't confessed anything - like I said, this has been known for a very long time. The missile 'sync' consists of sending the launch signal and then each client simulates the missile independently.

As for fuzes of that era, they were as reliable as the rest of the electronics. A lot misses at that time were due to lack of training and good DLZ display/knowledge as well.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/27/18 01:54 AM.

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#4427901 - 06/27/18 03:10 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
You've just confessed that the MP sync is broken and has been known to be broken for a very long time and yet nothing has been done about it. I didn't know you supported my narrative, GG! biggrin


'The MP sync is broken and has been a known issue for a very long time and nothing has been done about it'. Is this what you are trying to say Ice? Good point. A good starting point for interesting debate

I lose the goodness of your point when you make judgement statements re posters, that are a disconnect to the conversation about the flight sim smile



#4427903 - 06/27/18 05:26 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
The missile 'sync' consists of sending the launch signal and then each client simulates the missile independently.


Doesn’t that mean that the more clients that are present, the more likely it is that different sets of data with lag/latency and jitter will be formed and interpreted? It sounds like it would be impossible for one missile to guarantee the same coordinates are output as each client has different network properties and behaviours!


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4427918 - 06/27/18 12:46 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Paradaz]  
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I don't actually know the answer to to that because I don't know the exact mechanism of transferring the launch command, but that sounds like it would make sense. You are right, it is impossible to guarantee the same coordinates - this method depends on the two missiles behaving the same way on both clients. It all works fine _most_ of the time, but it would be nice if guided missiles (I suspect unguided rockets aren't as big a deal and given that MLRSs and other entities can put a LOT of those in the virtual air ... ) would be synced every second or five to ensure they're on track in both simulations.

I have seen significant desync even with a low number of players - it's rare, but very obvious when it happens. Guidance improvements can actually alleviate a bunch of it because it will smooth out missile reactions at longer ranges, but this is only one part of the puzzle as things happen as shorter ranges also.

Originally Posted by Paradaz
Doesn’t that mean that the more clients that are present, the more likely it is that different sets of data with lag/latency and jitter will be formed and interpreted? It sounds like it would be impossible for one missile to guarantee the same coordinates are output as each client has different network properties and behaviours!


Last edited by GrayGhost; 06/27/18 12:48 PM.

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#4427933 - 06/27/18 03:10 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Oh a confession! I haven't confessed anything - like I said, this has been known for a very long time. The missile 'sync' consists of sending the launch signal and then each client simulates the missile independently.

You must be confused as to what "confession" means. Would "admitted" be a better term?

"each client simulates the missile independently" -- I'm no coder but that doesn't sound like the best way to do it. What if you fire a missile at me and in your client, your missile hits me but in my client, the missile doesn't? What happens then?

I suppose each client also simulates the FM of aircraft independently?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
I don't actually know the answer to to that because I don't know the exact mechanism of transferring the launch command, but that sounds like it would make sense. You are right, it is impossible to guarantee the same coordinates - this method depends on the two missiles behaving the same way on both clients. It all works fine _most_ of the time, but it would be nice if guided missiles (I suspect unguided rockets aren't as big a deal and given that MLRSs and other entities can put a LOT of those in the virtual air ... ) would be synced every second or five to ensure they're on track in both simulations.

I wonder if it works this way for shooter games? Each individual client calculates ballistics and penetration values of each projectile individually? Must deal with a lot of inaccuracies and no matter how small, it will all build up to some messed up results!


Originally Posted by bisher
'The MP sync is broken and has been a known issue for a very long time and nothing has been done about it'. Is this what you are trying to say Ice? Good point. A good starting point for interesting debate
I lose the goodness of your point when you make judgement statements re posters, that are a disconnect to the conversation about the flight sim smile

Not sure what you're trying to say here, bisher.


- Ice
#4428177 - 06/29/18 04:28 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
You must be confused as to what "confession" means. Would "admitted" be a better term?


I'm not. 'Confession/Admitting' has a negative connotation, as in someone was doing something bad or trying to hide something. Neither of those is true.

Quote
"each client simulates the missile independently" -- I'm no coder but that doesn't sound like the best way to do it. What if you fire a missile at me and in your client, your missile hits me but in my client, the missile doesn't? What happens then?


In the case of THIS game, the missile on the shooting client's machine is taken as correct. In your scenario, you watch the missile not track or barely miss or explode far from you, but you take damage assigned from the detonation distance on my client.

Quote
I suppose each client also simulates the FM of aircraft independently?


They do ... kind of a strange question. smile FMs might not be super-heavy things to simulate (not simple either) but if you can avoid running them all in one place, you probably should.


Quote
I wonder if it works this way for shooter games? Each individual client calculates ballistics and penetration values of each projectile individually? Must deal with a lot of inaccuracies and no matter how small, it will all build up to some messed up results!


In ARMA3 the standard way of dealing with someone close up was to run circles around them while reloading your gun. I haven't played for a while, but it was an effective way of avoiding hits. It always struck me as strange that I could put a stream of bullets in someone's way, they'd run through that stream and not take a hit. There is no game that isn't affected by these MP issues. It's just that some are affected more, others less, IMHO.
You can say what you want about a given solution being good or bad ... there's no perfect solution. In the case of this game, we appear to be using an older solution that reduces network traffic but results in the aforementioned artifacts some times.


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#4428244 - 06/29/18 04:11 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Originally Posted by - Ice
You must be confused as to what "confession" means. Would "admitted" be a better term?

I'm not. 'Confession/Admitting' has a negative connotation, as in someone was doing something bad or trying to hide something. Neither of those is true.

Sure. Suggest a better, more fitting term? Either way, you've already helped me prove my point. Thanks!


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
In the case of THIS game, the missile on the shooting client's machine is taken as correct. In your scenario, you watch the missile not track or barely miss or explode far from you, but you take damage assigned from the detonation distance on my client.

So in THIS game, it's possible for me to watch me do a successful missile avoidance maneuver but still blow up from a direct hit (your client) even though I just saw it fly past me (my client). Wow. Such advanced MP netcode. Why not simply use the firing client's calculations to extrapolate missile coordinates and use those coordinates to show the defensive client where the missile is? One calculation, done. Why do two only to ignore the other and when the other is also totally unneeded?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Quote
I suppose each client also simulates the FM of aircraft independently?

They do ... kind of a strange question. smile FMs might not be super-heavy things to simulate (not simple either) but if you can avoid running them all in one place, you probably should.

No, you claimed each client simulates each missile independently.... so does each client simulate the FM of each aircraft independently as well? ie, in a dogfight, your client simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft and my client separately simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft? It was kind of a rhetorical question, obviously if each client calculates the FM of each asset in the air --- aircraft, weapons, missiles, etc, then the game is doing a lot of work it does not need to.


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
In the case of this game, we appear to be using an older solution that reduces network traffic but results in the aforementioned artifacts some times.

I agree! Like you said, it's been broken for some time, ED knows it's been broken for some time, and has simply been accepted as the norm rather than be a priority fix. Who wants accurate positioning of missiles or correct simulation of fuzes if the community has already made up excuses for this behavior? Now let's go back to ensuring accurate wing vapors and correct water droplet behavior on the canopy!! banghead mycomputer


- Ice
#4428298 - 06/30/18 12:27 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Sure. Suggest a better, more fitting term? Either way, you've already helped me prove my point. Thanks!


What have you proven that we didn't know? As for a more fitting term? You've been informed of the facts I guess? smile


Quote
So in THIS game, it's possible for me to watch me do a successful missile avoidance maneuver but still blow up from a direct hit (your client) even though I just saw it fly past me (my client). Wow. Such advanced MP netcode. Why not simply use the firing client's calculations to extrapolate missile coordinates and use those coordinates to show the defensive client where the missile is? One calculation, done. Why do two only to ignore the other and when the other is also totally unneeded?


It's more likely you'll never perform a missile avoidance maneuver smile
Calculations are done at all times - there's just no coordination.


Quote
No, you claimed each client simulates each missile independently.... so does each client simulate the FM of each aircraft independently as well? ie, in a dogfight, your client simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft and my client separately simulates the FM of the missile and the FM of both our aircraft? It was kind of a rhetorical question, obviously if each client calculates the FM of each asset in the air --- aircraft, weapons, missiles, etc, then the game is doing a lot of work it does not need to.


Right.


Quote
I agree! Like you said, it's been broken for some time, ED knows it's been broken for some time, and has simply been accepted as the norm rather than be a priority fix. Who wants accurate positioning of missiles or correct simulation of fuzes if the community has already made up excuses for this behavior? Now let's go back to ensuring accurate wing vapors and correct water droplet behavior on the canopy!! banghead mycomputer


It isn't broken ... what it is, is old.


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#4428301 - 06/30/18 12:47 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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What we're looking at here is an API problem. The only API I care about though, as well as with other sims, is that their game engines are being updated to use Vulkan tm.

#4428306 - 06/30/18 02:36 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Who wants accurate positioning of missiles or correct simulation of fuzes if the community has already made up excuses for this behavior?


Okay Ice. What community has an ear to ED and is ruining this game by making excuses? I would like to kick their ass smile





#4428308 - 06/30/18 04:24 AM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: - Ice]  
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Quote
"each client simulates the missile independently"

I do not have a dog in this fight and I will not be following at any regular bases, but what you have described is the client / client protocols of the Y2K era ( ie DX6 and DirrectPlay). With server / client protocols, the firing unit should send the time / action to the server. The server then updates the other clients and adds the entity to the servers 'world'.

There are two types of MP code. Client/Client and Server/Client. I would hope that a modern PC simulation is not using Client/Client.

a quick google for client/client found this explanation.
https://gafferongames.com/post/what_every_programmer_needs_to_know_about_game_networking/

Last edited by Brit44 'Aldo'; 06/30/18 04:31 AM.

TPA who TWI
#4428335 - 06/30/18 01:59 PM Re: Is ED deliberately misleading potential customers? [Re: Brit44 'Aldo']  
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I know, the concept is oldish. I don't know the guts of the implementation, but the server is definitely involved. I don't think this thing has been client/client since Flaming Cliffs came to be.

Originally Posted by Brit44 'Aldo'
Quote
"each client simulates the missile independently"

I do not have a dog in this fight and I will not be following at any regular bases, but what you have described is the client / client protocols of the Y2K era ( ie DX6 and DirrectPlay). With server / client protocols, the firing unit should send the time / action to the server. The server then updates the other clients and adds the entity to the servers 'world'.


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