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#4423824 - 05/31/18 09:20 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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There isn't time in a lifetime to go proving for yourself everything you've been taught, learned and accepted as fact, or to verify everyone's credentials, much less read scientific journals to satisfy yourself.
You have faith, to one degree or another, that experts are the experts they claim to be and in the field they're discussing.

My point isn't so much comparing the late night charlatans to Einstein, but to compare that they each have people that are willing to take what they say as fact, because they have faith in them.


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#4423826 - 05/31/18 09:38 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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I agree with your first line there. Really, it's these two lines that I just find weird:
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Keep in mind that even scientific “fact” is still largely faith based.
“Trust” or “faith” is the cornerstone for much of our beliefs, religious, scientific, social or otherwise. Sometimes you just have to go with what you can accept as true, even if you can’t prove it.


The first line -- no it isn't. For the common person, probably, but step into any specialized field and there are just facts that are accepted not because of blind belief or faith or authority, but because to prove those facts again is just wasting time. You're supposed to move forward and explore new ideas, prove or disprove new and emerging theories, not re-hash the basics.

The second line -- again no. You have to go with certain things not because you can't prove it, you most certainly can! Want to prove the earth is round? Get rich enough to build your own rocket or find a way into NASA and become an astronaut and you can prove the earth is round. Learn enough of astronomy or geometry or some other field, take measurements, extrapolate on that, and you'll get your numbers to show the earth is round (or roughly spherical). As you said, you don't have time to verify everything, but the experts that you put your faith in tell you the facts not because of their own faith but because of their own experience, knowledge, and experiments.


For the third time now, how do YOU define faith?
1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something
2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.

There are two definitions from a quick search, but realize that #1 has nothing to do with #2. I could have faith in my doctor when he says this treatment is best for me. I have trust and confidence in his skills and knowledge. If I push him, I could get him to explain why he says this treatment is best and he would point me to a good number of research and trials and other forms of evidence. The spiritual definition of faith, #2, the belief in Jesus Christ, the supernatural, heaven and earth, is very different. So putting your faith in experts is only done so because you do not have the time, knowledge, or skill to verify what they are saying but if you did, you could very well do the verification for yourself, but this does not mean that scientific fact is faith-based.


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#4423837 - 05/31/18 10:35 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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The first definition covers it all IMO, including religion.

"but the experts that you put your faith in tell you the facts not because of their own faith but because of their own experience, knowledge, and experiments."

Ok. I doubt you learn everything from people like that though, but take others word for it too. Things get distorted the more people that are involved.
That's enough hijack for now.


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#4423852 - 05/31/18 11:15 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
"but the experts that you put your faith in tell you the facts not because of their own faith but because of their own experience, knowledge, and experiments."
Ok. I doubt you learn everything from people like that though, but take others word for it too. Things get distorted the more people that are involved.

Yes, in a way, you take others word for it but usually, your own work or research depends on what you've taken others word for, so if that word is untrue, then your own work would unravel and then you would take steps to figure out why. Perhaps take some other person's word, see if that holds true, and so on. Unlike religion, things in science are tested constantly so any "untrue word" is weeded out.

While the first definition covers it all, the second definition separates religion from science. You can have trust/confidence that the findings of different research teams are true, and you can have trust/confidence that your religious beliefs are true. However, you can dig up the research papers and methodologies of the research teams and if you want, do your own experiments to replicate/validate their findings (proof) but you cannot do so for religion.


Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
That's enough hijack for now.

Indeed, but I thank you for the interesting discussion! smile


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#4423866 - 06/01/18 12:08 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
I don't know whether this video is real or not, but I cannot believe that out of the billions of planets in the universe that just one -- Earth -- had intelligent life develop. They're out there. Somewhere. One day we may even meet them. That probably won't go well, since it seems the natural human reaction to things we don't understand is to fear it. And if we fear it we destroy it. Hope I'm wrong.

Maybe they will destroy us. Or maybe we'll play pick up basketball with them since they jump 10 feet high and have 6 arms.


What I've always found fascinating about this assumption is that it assumes that life simply "developed" on its own from nothing. What if it did not? I myself have a hard time fathoming the incredible complexities that comprise our biochemical mechanisms simply "happened" because a few chemicals sloshed together, and somehow those chemicals bargained amongst themselves and thought it was a good idea to first think, and then to reproduce, and to figure out a way to encode their blueprints into molecules that would examine themselves for errors and repair where needed, and then divide, and then further decide that it was probably best if only half the code was combined with another capsule because it was in the best interests of diversity and survival.

I have a really hard time with this.

So for me, for life to exist outside of Earth, it likely was created by something. What that is, I don't know. And the whole chicken in the egg paradox, well, to me, it doesn't matter. =)

And I do hope beyond hope life does exist beyond our dusty berm.

#4423894 - 06/01/18 04:14 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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#4424001 - 06/01/18 05:39 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
What I've always found fascinating about this assumption is that it assumes that life simply "developed" on its own from nothing. What if it did not? I myself have a hard time fathoming the incredible complexities that comprise our biochemical mechanisms simply "happened" because a few chemicals sloshed together, and somehow those chemicals bargained amongst themselves and thought it was a good idea to first think, and then to reproduce, and to figure out a way to encode their blueprints into molecules that would examine themselves for errors and repair where needed, and then divide, and then further decide that it was probably best if only half the code was combined with another capsule because it was in the best interests of diversity and survival.

I have a really hard time with this.

Maybe it's because it's not like that. I think the early organisms first really reproduced before doing any thinking, at least as how we define "thinking" nowadays. There are excellent videos on this on YouTube. Are you trying to argue that life on Earth has been "designed"? There's a few good videos by Mr. Dawkins explaining about how the eye developed. Just use that and imagine how the organism developed from single-celled to multi-celled.


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
And I do hope beyond hope life does exist beyond our dusty berm.

I do believe (faith, with no evidence) that it does, simply because of probabilities. Whether that life is intelligent or not, whether it is capable of space travel or not, whether it is even as advanced as us, less advanced, or more advanced, doesn't matter to me. I believe they are out there.


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#4424003 - 06/01/18 05:44 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

I do believe (faith, with no evidence) that it does, simply because of probabilities. Whether that life is intelligent or not, whether it is capable of space travel or not, whether it is even as advanced as us, less advanced, or more advanced, doesn't matter to me. I believe they are out there.



You've hit on exactly the point I was trying to make in my initial post in this thread! We have no hard evidence so all we can really say to the question of whether or not life exists outside of Earth is "maybe". And while the mathematical probability indicates that there's a good chance it does exist, it's still not the same thing as having direct evidence.


And besides, all of this is really just mental masturbation until if and when the day comes that humanity actually has CONTACT with that extra-terrestrial life.


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#4424014 - 06/01/18 06:12 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Well, what happens if we do find evidence that life did exist on Mars, but no longer do so today? What if by the time we make contact with extra-terrestrial life and we develop the tech to go to them, we're a good thousand years too late as they've nuked themselves into oblivion or their planet got hit by a meteor? Do we have to make contact with life that exists at the time of contact or is evidence of previous life enough?


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#4424015 - 06/01/18 06:20 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Well, what happens if we do find evidence that life did exist on Mars, but no longer do so today? What if by the time we make contact with extra-terrestrial life and we develop the tech to go to them, we're a good thousand years too late as they've nuked themselves into oblivion or their planet got hit by a meteor? Do we have to make contact with life that exists at the time of contact or is evidence of previous life enough?



If we find actual hard evidence that intelligent life used to exist on Mars or some other planet then that would definitely be major worldwide news. It just wouldn't be nearly as big as humans encountering a live alien species. smile


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#4424024 - 06/01/18 06:53 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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I think timing comes into play. Just how long does an intelligent species last? There might be all kinds of life, but the window where that life is conscious, much less space faring, would be hard to line up with ourselves. Then distance and detection, but what if we missed life on Mars by a few million years? Some other life might come after us in our own solar system a few million after us.
I really like the way the Cosmic Calendar lays things out like that. The history of the universe, expressed as a calendar. Big Bang the first second of Jan 1. Humans as we know it just appeared in the last seconds of 12/31. Our time here has been very short.
What if other life anywhere near us existed on "12/30", or earlier? Maybe we were slow to develop? Maybe we were faster and other life hasn't happened yet? Someone has to be first. A few million years makes a big difference, but in the life of the universe, it's nothing.



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#4424052 - 06/01/18 08:48 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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There's even a theory that we must've come from Mars! smile


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#4424070 - 06/01/18 10:28 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Sagan was wise beyond his years, and I too have always loved the calendar. Damn shame he left us at such a young age.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 06/01/18 10:29 PM.
#4427883 - 06/26/18 11:29 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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#4427891 - 06/27/18 01:34 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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From this perspective:

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#4427898 - 06/27/18 02:25 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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#4427900 - 06/27/18 02:57 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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So let's get this straight:

Every government that has the moxie to garner attention from outer space secretly knows about the Space Aliens that have been visiting us for (at least) a hundred years on the regular.

And not a one of them, regardless of peace or war, change of governments, and time itself, has ever broken the secrecy that they hold together about it. Every single government worker, researcher, and politician that would be required to be in the know of this has kept the secret of this right on into their graves, no matter their personal situations. They never, ever have a change of heart and reveal their secret. Ever. Over the course of multiple governments in the span of at least 100 years.

This in light of the fact that some governments have leaped ahead of others in technology in a rapid fashion, hinting at the possibility of working with said Space Aliens. Those lagging behind might spy on each other, might steal technologies, might even resort to proxy wars to gain it, but would never reveal that the other side was working with Space Aliens.

Because, you know, it's a secret.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4427902 - 06/27/18 04:06 AM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Article assumes abiogenesis. I can't buy that theory, though, given the complexities demonstrated even in the tiniest of cellular organelles. Assuming life did not form spontaneously, and was engineered and spread either by hand or by panspermia, then quite possibly there isn't much out there to observe.

And, assuming we may have been created rather than distilled randomly from nothing, whatever designed us may have also figured out how to exit our Universe, entirely. Hence nothing seen, nothing found.

Or perhaps the Universe is a hologram, after all, and we're being observed and tested from afar, inside a perfectly designed simulation made to trick us into believing we ourselves are our own gods, and once the nonsensical human power complex gets too big, our master pushes the delete button and flushes us down the bitbucket drain, starting over again.

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