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#4426632 - 06/18/18 03:09 PM Early build plans and ideas  
Joined: Jan 2001
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Hi Guys,

Since I know you love taking builds apart and analyzing components... here's my plan for summer. Going to be at least another month before I purchase anything, but I'm already grateful for all suggestions.

Core Components:

CPU: Intel Core i7-8700K (6 Cores Hyperthreading to 12)
RAM: 16GB DDR4 (Corsair)
GFX: Nvidia GTX 1080Ti
Storage: 1TB Samsung Evo 860

Basically: Going for a 4K capable GFX card with a fast hyperthreading CPU, though I don't see the need for an 8-Core / 16-Threads CPU yet. Since I don't store a lot of music or videos a Terrabyte SSD will do, bringing over my 512GB Samsung Evo 850 from the current machine as well.

Unsure about what's a good Motherboard these days. Z270 or Z370 chipset seems to be what Tom's Hardware likes, so I have an MSI Z270 Gaming in mind for about 80 bucks. I don't need SLI or overclocking support or any other fancy features.

Wattage: 250W seems to be the most the card will need, and the CPU comes in at about 100W TDP. So I'm planning for a Corsair 750W PSU - since 650 and 750 cost almost the same.

Cooling: I've never done water, but seeing that there are now complete closed-circuit systems for a reasonable price (Corsair Hydro series...) it seems a tempting way to get the noise down. Wondering though - my current system is nine years old, not sure if liquid cooling would have survived such a long time.


Any thoughts and feedback welcome.

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#4426655 - 06/18/18 06:29 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Allen Offline
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Allen  Offline
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I like water cooling now. It is quieter and more effective than a large air cooler. I tend to put it on any build that is not a "budget build". Ryzen 7 2700X comes with a game-quality air-cooler as part of the price tag (but, AMD might change coolers -- they have before).

Moreover, recent Intel CPUs have been said to need extra cooling because they do not have the best material between the metal-outside and the chip inside (in fact one on-line seller sells high end gaming Intel CPUs they have taken apart and re-assembled correctly). One needs water cooling or re-assembled Intel CPUs for long times at max-boost which adds heat. I don't know which, if any, newer Intel CPUs use the better construction from the factory.

You might consider m.2 SSD that fits directly on the motherboard. Up to date motherboards will accept two of them. I have two 500MB units (total 1TB). I use one for everything -- except games. I use the second for Games that load slowly (only one really needs it for me -- it can save 30s to 60s vs a hard drive when changing locations in a game). An m.2 SSD is nominally 5 or 6 times as fast as a normal SSD -- however, one of mine is only 3 times as fast for reads. Downside -- they cost more than a standard SSD. Not all m.2 are actually faster -- some are merely standard SSD reconfigured for the m.2 attachment point. The best full speed m.2 is the Samsung 970 (or older 960) -- I use the non-pro version (my opinions).

One can consider a fast 1 or 2TB hard drive for most games and file saves -- because they don't need the speed. But, I know you have a plan -- and I'm not trying to change it. I like to use one of my HD for Windows 10 images and general file saves.

Yes, many older games still only use 2 threads well. I've read some recent ones (ones I do not own) use 4 or 6 threads. X Plane 11 was said to use 20 threads -- I have not checked that while running XP 11 -- but, they don't add FPS at this point (I guess they are preparing for the future). Long term (next few years) its going to come down to cores and threads on CPUs -- because 5GHz (or maybe 6GHz someday) is about all we'll get from Silicon chips . Games will have to go to more threads to add significant extra content. I understand the PS5 console (in development) may be heading that way (but, that's speculation).

Just thoughts, FWIW. I realize you are heading in a different direction than some of my comments. To the extent your build saves money, that money can go towards what matters most -- GPU, CPU, and Monitor. So, these really are just thoughts FWIW.


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4426660 - 06/18/18 07:00 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Paradaz Offline
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I'll also add that closed loop water coolers aren't just about low temps......the majority of the better air coolers are large and bulky due to the amount of surface fins needed and then some will also utilise push/pull configs and therefore 2 x fans. Closed loop coolers mean that the area around your CPU can be kept free of objects/clutter and therefore you get good airflow through the system from the case fans through to the exhaust. Another benefit is that the RAM slots aren't covered up by a massive cooler.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4426666 - 06/18/18 07:45 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Whoohoo! New build! I can't help but feel excited for you and hope that the Price Gods treat you well!

1TB SSD - I usually prefer 1 SSD for my OS and 1 SSD for my games as that allows me to reformat my OS drive safely without worrying about my games. I was going to say 1TB SSD is expensive and suggest two drives but it looks like a 1TB SSD is now only £220 whereas my recommendation of 250GB (£64) + 500GB (£115) is more expensive (£0.24/GB vs £0.22/GB). I guess what's left is just to remind you not to forget about old-school HDDs for storage and other games that don't require SSD speeds or can benefit from short-stroking your HDD. I'm guessing your old SSD is going to store the OS?

Motherboard - I'd spring for the newer one for the reason that it's... new smile I'm sure there's little difference in price and you can find a Z370 that's at the same price range.

Cooling - I'm a strong proponent of air coolers, specifically the Noctua NH-D15 (£80) as it performs great compared to the Corsair H105 (£110) if you look at this review with a 2-4C difference between the two coolers but with 3-11dBA more quiet than the AIO cooler. The fans spin at a lower RPM and thus less noise (1521rpm vs 2598rpm at 100%) but then you can see how efficient of a cooler the Noctua is. Another benefit of air coolers is that in the event of a catastrophic failure, you're still left with a passive air cooler and all you need to do is get new fans. In a water cooler setup, I'm sure you can imagine how many points of failure there are. frown

Of course, the downside is that you have a MASSIVE cooler and you can't go for the fancy RAM kits as they might not fit under the cooler or your RAM LEDs and motherboard lighting may not be visible, but I'm the kind of guy that likes to USE the computer, not look at all the fancy lights smile Another issue may be space so if building a small form factor PC, then AIOs have a great advantage.

If anyone has a review that shows the Noctua NH-D15 getting stumped by an AIO, I'd love to see it!



One thing you've not mentioned is your case. IMHO, this needs careful consideration as well! Good airflow, good cable management space, and easy maintenance are factors that can determine whether your build and maintenance time would be enjoyable or not.


- Ice
#4426689 - 06/18/18 09:22 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Thanks guys.

Allen, I was looking at m.2 SSDs but to be honest right now even the speed I'm getting off my seven year old 120GB Crucial OS Disk is brilliant enough. If I can get more storage for the same price at a little less speed that works better for me.
Thanks for the information regarding Intel CPUs which I hadn't heard.

I'm going to use the new SSD for OS, because my current one is preinstalled with a lot of games - and even 512GB is too large for a system drive. I utilize only 40GB of my 120GB System SSD right now. So the idea is to format the 1TB at 100/900 GB. I figure the OS disk gets the highest amount of writes, so the largest SSD will have the biggest write lifetime. Mechanical disks just aren't a consideration for me anymore - I'm frugal with space usage, I'm even rotating games sometimes if I don't play them for a while. My backup system consists of two 1.5TB external drives that share the same content (mostly an image of the system each, and all my game installers), so if I have 1,5TB SSD storage in the new system that's a good match.

What Ice writes about Water vs. Aircooling I didn't believe possible - I'm also always a bit cautious about these huge metal weights at a long lever point on a vertical motherboard... but it certainly does seem to win the quiet price. So okay, I'm putting a huge air fan into the consideration, thanks for that! Guess it depends on the mobo layout.

I believe the noise maker here is going to be the 1080Ti anyway - unless I want to pay about 50 bucks extra for a non-factory design the normal blower type will be noisy enough.

Thanks for the feedback, it definitly helps to look at it from different angles. I'm still a bit stumped to spend 3000 bucks on PC Gaming Hardware (including the 43" 4K screen) which right now feels wrong (because I'm hardly gaming these days) but I know that as the cooler time of years comes it's the place I spend the most time at when I'm home alone. And I figure replacing the nine year old system in time is better than an emergency job if something goes - which it eventually will.

#4426692 - 06/18/18 09:45 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Yes, M.2 is faster than SATA and NVMe is faster than M.2 but only if you sit by your PC with a stopwatch smile

As for your current SSD with games, well, I guess you could give it the same drive letter and let Steam or whatever just install whatever files are missing and would save you a lot of downloading. I also "rotate" games but it's easy now even with Steam to move games into the SSD or back on the HDD.

As for the cooling, the air cooler comes with a bracket that you'll put on your motherboard plus I'm sure these are all spec'd to a certain weight so you should be alright. I've heard of people damaging their components with liquid, I've yet to come across one where they lost their motherboard due to excessive cooler weight smile

A 1080Ti with the reference fan design? Say it isn't so! Those things are not only noisy, they're less efficient at cooling too! Spending 3000 bucks on a PC build and saving 50 bucks to avoid getting a 2- or 3-fan design? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me wink


9 years is a good time to upgrade. Surely you jest? I upgraded mine after 5 years, but then again it really was only due to the fact that my son's PC gave up. I probably would've kept that PC for another 2-3 years to be fair, but that's only with regards to the CPU/mobo/RAM; everything else on that build was upgraded slowly.


- Ice
#4426758 - 06/19/18 10:24 AM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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Allen Offline
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Originally Posted by RSColonel_131st
Thanks guys... I figure replacing the nine year old system in time is better than an emergency job if something goes - which it eventually will.


You have a sound plan -- to my mind.

Yes, my "system C:" 500GB m.2 SSD only has 90GB on it (W10 and all my applications -- no game code). So, that's not the most economical use of 500GB smile

I upgrade for the fun of it these days. I used to last much longer between upgrades. And I used to use mid-range components and found them plenty good enough. Now, I go more towards the top -- and give the wife and grandkids the "old" stuff. But, the "top" components are overkill.

My upgrades rarely make a difference I can "see or feel" (only measure). Recently, the exception is a fast SSD (one that's 2 or 3 times or more faster than what I'm using), I can feel the speed up -- for a few days -- then, I get used to it and don't notice it.

On paper, I'm set for a while with my system listed below. Nothing I want to do that it won't do for the next few years. Nothing I more I want now. However, if/when a Ryzen 7 2800X or 7nm GPU hits the market -- I may jump. Who am I kidding -- I will jump for the fun of it smile


Sapphire Pulse RX7900XTX, 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + SAMSUNG 32" Odyssey Neo G7 1000R curve (4K/2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD R9-7950X (ARCTIC Liquid Freezer II 420), 64GB RAM@6.0GHz, Gigabyte X670E AORUS MASTER MB, (4x M.2 SSD + 2xSSD + 2xHD) = ~52TB storage, EVGA 1600W PSU, Phanteks Enthoo Pro Full Tower, ASUS RT-AX89X 6000Mbps WiFi router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, G.Skill RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W11 Pro
#4426790 - 06/19/18 07:25 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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Exactly. My last two upgrades were the NVMe drives. My next upgrades will either be the next-gen GPU or bigger-capacity NVMe drives and selling the old ones. Not really needing to upgrade much. Maybe buy a 32GB RAM kit to replace my 16GB kit if the price comes down a bit more, but nothing really that will be a big upgrade or improvement in performance compared to what I have now.

My wallet's not complaining about that though!


- Ice
#4426867 - 06/20/18 02:12 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

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Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
I actually hate upgrading. I love me a nice, stable system, predictable behaviour....

Ice, the point you made about not saving on the GFX Design was a really good one. The way you put it you are right - I'd be perfectly stupid to accept more noise and heat for that small a price difference.

#4426894 - 06/20/18 07:16 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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i would check on what chipset the I7-8700K will work with i think its only the Z370 at the moment


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#4426896 - 06/20/18 07:35 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
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Lifer

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Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Oh, you're right.
https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-coffee-lake-z270-z370-motherboard,35554.html

I figured it's just a matter of socket, and 370 was just a newer or bigger version of 270. In this case Intel really didn't go for backwards compatibility.

Thanks, that is good to know. I hope Z370 boards won't break the bank...

Last edited by RSColonel_131st; 06/20/18 07:36 PM.
#4432605 - 08/02/18 02:33 PM Re: Early build plans and ideas [Re: RSColonel_131st]  
Joined: Jan 2001
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RSColonel_131st Offline
Lifer
RSColonel_131st  Offline
Lifer

Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 25,138
Vienna, 2nd rock left.
Sooo...

Sent out request for proposal to two small shops/builders I know personally.

I requested an Intel i7-8700K, Z370 Chipset Mobo of some kind or other, GTX 1080ti (preferable MSI GeForce GTX 1080 Ti Gaming X Trio), 16GB RAM and a Samsung 860 EVO 1TB Solid State Disk. Didn't specify the PSU, Case or other details.

The 4K screen I want is currently at 600EUR, so I can spend 2400EUR on the build (including the Win10 license and all service fees for assembly and installation).

Let's see what I can get for that amount of cash. Part of me is saying to go for a 2K Gaming build and save some of that on the screen and GFX card, but I've put decent savings aside this summer either way...


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