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#4422682 - 05/25/18 08:40 PM Gifting System  
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From today's newsletter:
Quote
DCS World Gift System

A common request we've had from you, our customers, is a gift system to purchase DCS World products for others. It's here! The gift system allows you to purchase any product on the DCS World e-Shop and send them as gifts to other users registered on www.DCS-WORLD.COM.

When in the "My Shopping Cart" store page, you now have a "Buy as a gift" button. Upon selection, you can then enter a DCS World username or their e-mail address to gift them the purchase; you can also leave them a comment.

Your gift orders will also be listed in your DCS World Store page.

Note that when purchasing a DCS World product as a gift, no bonus points are earned, but you can use bonus points to purchase a gift.



Seems like it's only for new modules, you still can't gift your own used modules to someone else. Took them this long to implement a "gift" system (existed on Steam and Humble Bundle and other sites for YEARS!!) that's exactly like what every other site has and still screw their existing customers?

So if you buy a module for your acount, you get bonus points. If you're kind enough to buy a module for a friend, you do not get bonus points. How does that make sense? How does that reward a customer who goes the extra mile for both a friend and for DCS?

mycomputer


- Ice
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4422703 - 05/25/18 10:31 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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#4424025 - 06/01/18 06:56 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
From today's newsletter:
Quote
DCS World Gift System

A common request we've had from you, our customers, is a gift system to purchase DCS World products for others. It's here! The gift system allows you to purchase any product on the DCS World e-Shop and send them as gifts to other users registered on www.DCS-WORLD.COM.

When in the "My Shopping Cart" store page, you now have a "Buy as a gift" button. Upon selection, you can then enter a DCS World username or their e-mail address to gift them the purchase; you can also leave them a comment.

Your gift orders will also be listed in your DCS World Store page.

Note that when purchasing a DCS World product as a gift, no bonus points are earned, but you can use bonus points to purchase a gift.



Seems like it's only for new modules, you still can't gift your own used modules to someone else. Took them this long to implement a "gift" system (existed on Steam and Humble Bundle and other sites for YEARS!!) that's exactly like what every other site has and still screw their existing customers?

So if you buy a module for your acount, you get bonus points. If you're kind enough to buy a module for a friend, you do not get bonus points. How does that make sense? How does that reward a customer who goes the extra mile for both a friend and for DCS?

mycomputer


You're getting even more inconsistent and incoherent. If ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others or industry trends, then why are you bringing up Steam or GOG? What they do should have no effect on how ED operates.

Besides, you cannot gift games on Steam that you have already activated and played yourself. I don't know about GOG currently but the last time I checked, it was similar to Valve's implementation. Essentially, ED's system is very similar to Valve and GOGs (unless something changed with GOG).

#4424037 - 06/01/18 07:38 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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This is purchasing as a gift, not transferring. Transferring will never return. Their new DRM they don't want to deal with change of owner and their entire business model is to sell people hype and shrug their shoulders when it's not satisfying long term.The bonus points makes no sense. They're practically worthless as it is and it seems insulting to deny them arbitrarily.

#4424049 - 06/01/18 08:42 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You're getting even more inconsistent and incoherent. If ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others or industry trends, then why are you bringing up Steam or GOG? What they do should have no effect on how ED operates.

Still can't resist taking a jab at me, huh? Where did I say ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others? You made the claim, buddy, cite your source.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Besides, you cannot gift games on Steam that you have already activated and played yourself. I don't know about GOG currently but the last time I checked, it was similar to Valve's implementation. Essentially, ED's system is very similar to Valve and GOGs (unless something changed with GOG).

True, but aside from that, ED also used to allow transfer of used/activated modules, as you well know. Those that are disgusted with their modules and wish to give them away for free or for a fraction of the price can no longer do so, thanks to ED's change of heart. Please do not pretend to be unaware of this or to miss the fact that this was my point all along.


Originally Posted by Frederf
This is purchasing as a gift, not transferring. Transferring will never return. Their new DRM they don't want to deal with change of owner and their entire business model is to sell people hype and shrug their shoulders when it's not satisfying long term.The bonus points makes no sense. They're practically worthless as it is and it seems insulting to deny them arbitrarily.

New DRM? I thought that was only for the Harrier? Is it also the same for the Hornet now? I know ED stated that it will be the case for modules after the Harrier but I'm not sure if ED followed their own word on that.


- Ice
#4424087 - 06/02/18 12:15 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You're getting even more inconsistent and incoherent. If ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others or industry trends, then why are you bringing up Steam or GOG? What they do should have no effect on how ED operates.

Still can't resist taking a jab at me, huh?


It isn't really a jab considering you make these claims yourself. Essentially you're saying you find your own reasoning offensive. biggrin

Originally Posted by - Ice

Where did I say ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others? You made the claim, buddy, cite your source.


Numerous times when talking about early access. Here is one example:
[Linked Image]

Your position flip flops depending on whether it paints ED in a good or bad light / supports your own argument.

But you'll probably ignore that quote, it is a common trend in your posts.

Another example: A few times you asked if there was any type of simulator similar to DCS with extremely long early access, missing features, bugs and optimizations that lagged many months or years post release and I gave you an example. Read the part underlined:


[Linked Image]

You entirely side stepped a legitimate comparison that is actually very similar to DCS.

At a later date you pretend that I never gave any examples when asking a similar question:

[Linked Image]

Answer is in the 2nd image. Shame you ignored it the first time.

Just some examples of why it is hard to take your rants seriously. smile

Originally Posted by - Ice

True..


End of that debate. Essentially, ED is following an industry trend but they're meanies for not going above and beyond the industry standard when it comes to gifting. rofl

Originally Posted by - Ice

Originally Posted by Frederf
This is purchasing as a gift, not transferring. Transferring will never return. Their new DRM they don't want to deal with change of owner and their entire business model is to sell people hype and shrug their shoulders when it's not satisfying long term.The bonus points makes no sense. They're practically worthless as it is and it seems insulting to deny them arbitrarily.

New DRM? I thought that was only for the Harrier? Is it also the same for the Hornet now? I know ED stated that it will be the case for modules after the Harrier but I'm not sure if ED followed their own word on that.


All the new modules have a new DRM scheme. I believe the thing they changed was the three day online check requirement.

Bonus points are indeed pretty much worthless, but legally they're not required to offer bonuses or sales. If you can take advantage of it great, but for most it is essentially worthless. The same can be said for most programs with reward / bonus money. Take eBay bucks as an example. Limited time frame to spend it, partial refunds or returns void the entire coupon amount and many other fine print details. Just wait for a proper sale if you don't feel like using a reward / bonus system with many limitations on it.

#4424120 - 06/02/18 08:36 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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Crikey, where to start on this one.......

You seem to have taken a lot of care and time taking screengrabs, moving them into an image editor etc. only to to take a previous discussion about EDs development practices and processes but then overlay it into a 'gifting' argument.

I'm not sure why Bohemia even crops up into this at all either......you seemingly imply that it's a standard practice for devs to offer early access like ED do with a lot of their products but that isn't correct at all. I think you're confusing the full release of a game that is present with bugs and needs fixes on day 1 (which is common now) against EDs early access process which is to release an unfinished game that isn't feature complete and doesn't get anywhere close to what other devs are releasing on day 1 until many years later.

I'm not sure how you're relating Bohemia and Arma 3 into the EDs early access mess. BIS released a full game that did need bug fixes and patching, however they did this before releasing paware modules. Their baseline game and supporting engine was worked on from the games release until it was on a very solid state......and it didn't take multiple years to get there either. BIS have since released free and payware modules that include additional maps and functionality.......none of these were 'early release'

As a side note, Arma 3 was released in 2013, it has gone from strength to strength with highly acclaimed playability and support from the devs. ED on the other hand released their first DCS module in 2008 (KA50) which included the Caucasus map. In 2018, that Caucasus map is still unfinished along with a lot of additional modules still carrying the EA tag released before, during or just after 2013 with no clarification on when these modules will ever be finished to an acceptable level.

The fact is that ED release 100% of their products as 'early access' and take many many years to reach a feature complete/acceptable state........or they never reach that state at all. I can't think of any other established dev that uses the same process. Star Citizen is the closest comparison however I would suggest that is a different process altogether based on the Kickstarter, intent and end goal.

As for the entire 'gifting argument'......you appear to be pulling at straws having moved the goalposts from the development discussion and seem more interested at having a go at forum members than the actual issue.



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#4424123 - 06/02/18 09:34 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Crikey, where to start on this one.......
You seem to have taken a lot of care and time taking screengrabs, moving them into an image editor etc. only to to take a previous discussion about EDs development practices and processes but then overlay it into a 'gifting' argument.


That was my 1st thought.

Originally Posted by Paradaz
As for the entire 'gifting argument'......you appear to be pulling at straws having moved the goalposts from the development discussion and seem more interested at having a go at forum members than the actual issue.


that was about all I got out of it.

#4424134 - 06/02/18 10:18 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by Winfield
Originally Posted by Paradaz
Crikey, where to start on this one.......
You seem to have taken a lot of care and time taking screengrabs, moving them into an image editor etc. only to to take a previous discussion about EDs development practices and processes but then overlay it into a 'gifting' argument.


That was my 1st thought.

Originally Posted by Paradaz
As for the entire 'gifting argument'......you appear to be pulling at straws having moved the goalposts from the development discussion and seem more interested at having a go at forum members than the actual issue.


that was about all I got out of it.

That and I'm a bit lost on the whole GoG and Steam thing since they don't develop products, they just distribute them. Urinary Olympics.


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#4424157 - 06/02/18 02:04 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You're getting even more inconsistent and incoherent.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
It isn't really a jab considering you make these claims yourself.

That first line isn't a personal attack? Please convince me how that is the epitome of politeness and civility.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Essentially you're saying you find your own reasoning offensive.

For the nth time now, I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth, especially when you have trouble understanding what I'm saying (or maybe not?) and then twist what I'm saying to fit your agenda.




Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by - Ice
Where did I say ED is to be judged alone and cannot be compared to others? You made the claim, buddy, cite your source.


Numerous times when talking about early access. Here is one example:



And are we just ingoring the fact that right after that, I was asking for comparison of sequence of events regarding ED and other game developers? Or do you just read what fits with your narrative and ignore all else?

[Linked Image]


The fact that your supposed evidence just showed you what a major fail looks like, I won't be dealing with the rest of your post. I've never flip flopped, I used your own "source" to counter your claim, and Paradaz has more knowledge of ARMA than I do and he's put it quite nicely. But tell you what? I'll humor you. Let's compare ED to ED....

ED used to allow people to transfer modules from one account to another which was great! I managed to transfer my copy of FC2 to my brother back home so he can enjoy it; I didn't care, I wasn't flying it anyway. Now ED does not allow transfer of modules from one account to another. You have to buy a whole new module instead! And no bonus points for your kindheartedness as well!! biggrin Past ED is way more awesome than Present ED!! DCS A10C released in such a good state and even the early Beta versions were quite feature-complete. How's the Hornet faring? Past ED is way more awesome than Present ED!!

So again, please let's not start comparing ED to other developers when ED itself cannot compare to how good it was in the past, when ED itself cannot even meet it's own deadlines, when ED itself cannot even mask the fact that it's desperate for cash, any cash, and will even use subterfuge to get it (re: recent newsletter) or do so in the laziest way possible (re: FC4 aircraft selection). That doesn't mean to say never compare ED to others; it simply means if ED cannot even play well in its own backyard, don't go out asking to compare it to other devs who actually do know what they're doing. ED can't even look good compared to it's own goals, how do you think it'll do when compared with the big boys and those who actually know what they're doing?



Oh look!! Here's a recent one where I even agreed about comparing ED to other companies and even said that the industry standard of pre-orders/pre-purchase for early access is in itself not an issue.

[Linked Image]
Source




Originally Posted by Flogger23m
End of that debate. Essentially, ED is following an industry trend but they're meanies for not going above and beyond the industry standard when it comes to gifting. rofl

rofl indeed, as you missed the point entirely. When following the industry trend is actually a STEP BACKWARD from how you previously did things, what does that say to the customers?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
All the new modules have a new DRM scheme. I believe the thing they changed was the three day online check requirement.

Source? And what is the new online check requirement?


- Ice
#4424161 - 06/02/18 02:17 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
You seem to have taken a lot of care and time taking screengrabs, moving them into an image editor etc. only to to take a previous discussion about EDs development practices and processes but then overlay it into a 'gifting' argument.

I think we're grasping at straws at this point, hence the long reach to tie stuff together.

He thinks I side-step or ignore a "legitimate comparison" and it doesn't occur to him that it wasn't legit to start with, hence it was an invalid argument. He was trying to justify ED's broken release state to ARMA, FSX, and the like, but that only works if you cherry-pick your instances; as a whole, these games still got developed better than ED could ever hope for.


Originally Posted by Paradaz
The fact is that ED release 100% of their products as 'early access' and take many many years to reach a feature complete/acceptable state........or they never reach that state at all.

He thinks that since other game studios sell early access to their products, this justifies ED doing the same........ and it would, if ED also copied their work ethic, professionalism, and release schedule. He cannot seem to grasp that to copy one aspect (selling early access/pre-release) but then to bastardize the rest of it (years to complete, if at all) makes the excuse of "but other studios are doing it too!!" null and void.


Originally Posted by Paradaz
seem more interested at having a go at forum members than the actual issue.

popcorn


- Ice
#4424162 - 06/02/18 02:18 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: DaveP63]  
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Originally Posted by DaveP63
That and I'm a bit lost on the whole GoG and Steam thing since they don't develop products, they just distribute them. Urinary Olympics.

In the sense that they too have gifting options. smile


- Ice
#4424222 - 06/02/18 07:47 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
you seemingly imply that it's a standard practice for devs to offer early access like ED do with a lot of their products but that isn't correct at all. I think you're confusing the full release of a game that is present with bugs and needs fixes on day 1 (which is common now) against EDs early access process which is to release an unfinished game that isn't feature complete and doesn't get anywhere close to what other devs are releasing on day 1 until many years later.

It is correct. ED does exactly this. Furthermore ED has deliberately eroded the distinction between early access and normal release with bugs. The line is not just blurred, it's erased. Testing version downloads are advertised in 1000px tall banners on the main page with download link without any hint it isn't the real branch. Modules which are labeled beta in the store page have their beta labels erased without reason from the module listing in the software. ED has achieved the ability to have a beta product for the alibi but a final product for marketing simultaneously.

#4424253 - 06/02/18 11:08 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
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Ties in perfectly with my thread here.


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#4424287 - 06/03/18 07:10 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Crikey, where to start on this one.......

You seem to have taken a lot of care and time taking screengrabs, moving them into an image editor etc. only to to take a previous discussion about EDs development practices and processes but then overlay it into a 'gifting' argument.


That was to point out Ice's inconsistent ramblings. The OP was a rant. Which is okay, but humorous that the same logic he used in the past to make arguments have gone out the window with this most recent one. smile

Originally Posted by Paradaz

I'm not sure why Bohemia even crops up into this at all either......you seemingly imply that it's a standard practice for devs to offer early access like ED do with a lot of their products but that isn't correct at all.


ArmA 3
DayZ
PUBG
Fortnite

Some of the biggest names in PC gaming have been in extended Early Accesses for months, if not years. It seems as if you are not too up to date with the shifting game industry (not that I like many of the trends). As I mentioned, it is a growing trend.

Originally Posted by Paradaz

I'm not sure how you're relating Bohemia and Arma 3 into the EDs early access mess.


Maybe you should have read the screen grabs.

Originally Posted by Paradaz

BIS released a full game that did need bug fixes and patching, however they did this before releasing paware modules. Their baseline game and supporting engine was worked on from the games release until it was on a very solid state....


Wrong. They did not release a full game at launch. It took months (almost a full year) to go from Alpha to Beta, and then many more months for the campaign parts. The game engine is not in a "solid state". ArmA 3's engine is about as good as EDGE, if not worse. So-so performance, single threaded, can't properly take advantage of GPUs - far too CPU bound to the point upgrading to a current gen GPU has little to no effect. The more units you place in a mission the more performance of the AI degrades to the point of uselessness. AI still walks through buildings, MBTs still flat spin out like Mario Kart occasionally, hands still clip weapon models in the first person. The list of issues is endless. To say the game and engine is in a "solid state" is utter nonsense. It very much resembles DCS in its current state years post release.

BIS has drug their feet on serious shortcomings for well over a decade and they side track with Go Karts DLC and scuba diving. Ignore the fact that reloading an ATGM is just as quick as reloading a pistol. If you hate what ED is doing, you should hate BIS as much if not more.

Originally Posted by Paradaz

..and it didn't take multiple years to get there either.


Yes it did. And the major issues are still present, as they were in ArmA 1.

Originally Posted by Paradaz

BIS have since released free and payware modules that include additional maps and functionality.......none of these were 'early release'


Yes, they cut a number of features from the release and later rolled them out as free updates because they could make release. The EDEN editor comes to mind. Yeah they do give some free content, so does ED. Your point?

Originally Posted by Paradaz

As a side note, Arma 3 was released in 2013, it has gone from strength to strength with highly acclaimed playability and support from the devs.


And here you are, slapping them on the back when they're no better than ED. Never mind the fact that infantry can still walk through damn walls three games, various expansions and years of support later! rofl

Originally Posted by Paradaz

ED on the other hand released their first DCS module in 2008 (KA50) which included the Caucasus map. In 2018, that Caucasus map is still unfinished...


What? The map was finished in 2008. They're updating it for free. You seem to be okay with BIS updating decade old maps but not ED for some reason. Makes you wonder...

Originally Posted by Paradaz

along with a lot of additional modules still carrying the EA tag released before, during or just after 2013 with no clarification on when these modules will ever be finished to an acceptable level.


No doubt about it, some of the 3rd party modules were nowhere near the quality they needed to be. Very glad I got a refund on the Hawk. I can't think of any in house ED module from 2013 that is still in early access. Which one am I forgetting?

Originally Posted by Paradaz

The fact is that ED release 100% of their products as 'early access' and take many many years to reach a feature complete/acceptable state........or they never reach that state at all. I can't think of any other established dev that uses the same process.


Then you're not thinking very hard are you?

DayZ still in Early Access five years later! Thanks BIS.

Don't forget ArmA 3.

Going off topic here, but this is an unpopular opinion I've posted more than once in the past. The eastern European sim developers do an excellent job at making certain things realistic, but the polish and immersion is often lacking. ArmA, DCS, IL-2. Compare those to Jane's, SWAT 4 or early Rainbow Six games. The western games always had much more polish and really excelled at everything they did, even if the scope limited by comparison. I'd like some of the polished and focused development to return rather than buggy scuba diving and the ability to take your pants off (thank you for this excellent feature BIS).

Originally Posted by Paradaz

As for the entire 'gifting argument'......you appear to be pulling at straws having moved the goalposts from the development discussion and seem more interested at having a go at forum members than the actual issue.


The inconsistency is the problem here. You whine that ED cannot be compared to similar products in the industry. Then you whine and support your argument by comparing their policies with others in the industry. Be consistent.

If you want to talk about grasping at straws, read the OP. Literally the "discussion" is that ED are being meanies because they aren't going above and beyond everyone else in the industry. If you think you'll be able to send licenses freely to accounts for any digital service, you're mistaken. Steam doesn't allow it, Origin doesn't, Uplay doesn't. The only reason I can think of as to why ED allowed it in the first place is because they lacked a proper gifting system. Now they have one. Whining about something that petty is simply that, petty. smile

So I do ask, what is the issue presented in the OP? I don't see one. ED being meanies isn't a good argument.

Originally Posted by DaveP63

That and I'm a bit lost on the whole GoG and Steam thing since they don't develop products, they just distribute them. Urinary Olympics.


It is a fair comparison because the OP is not talking about the product, but rather gifting policies for digital licenses.

Ignoring that, you're wrong. Valve (Steam), EA (Origin) & CD Projekt (GOG) do in fact make games. Ever hear of Half Life or The Witcher? smile

Originally Posted by ICE

That first line isn't a personal attack? Please convince me how that is the epitome of politeness and civility.


Politeness is a two way street. If you write in an aggressive, over the top, off the rails tone expect the responses to be of the same kind. smile

Originally Posted by ICE

For the nth time now, I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth...


You're the one who wrote what was quoted in the screen shots. smile

Originally Posted by ICE

... I used your own "source" to counter your claim...


You didn't. The part circled in green is a claim you made. You asked a question that had nothing to do with my point, as usual.

Originally Posted by ICE

...Paradaz has more knowledge of ARMA than I do...


Which clearly isn't that much. A quick google search of "ArmA 3 poor optimization" would show you how terrible the game runs. Very much like DCS; although at least DCS can take advantage of a modern GPU. smile

Originally Posted by ICE

ED used to allow people to transfer modules from one account to another which was great! I managed to transfer my copy of FC2 to my brother back home so he can enjoy it; I didn't care, I wasn't flying it anyway. Now ED does not allow transfer of modules from one account to another. You have to buy a whole new module instead!


Those meanies! They just as mean as Valve! hahaha

Although it was nice of them, your brother wasn't entitled to your used copy of FC2.

Originally Posted by ICE

And no bonus points for your kindheartedness as well!!


They're so mean! They aren't giving you bonus credit? That is illegal! No wait, it isn't. Big deal over nothing like usual.

Originally Posted by ICE

Past ED is way more awesome than Present ED!! DCS A10C released in such a good state and even the early Beta versions were quite feature-complete.


I'm not sure about ED, but I'd agree with you if you were referring to DCS. It has seen better days. cheers

Complain about the the obscenely accurate BMP-2s sniping Flankers out of the sky and I'll stand right beside you. Getting upset because you can't gift your digital license to another person's account is downright petty.

Originally Posted by ICE

So again, please let's not start comparing ED to other developers when ED itself cannot compare to how good it was in the past...


That makes absolutely zero sense. You can't compare the quality to another product / service because it was better in the past? If that is your opinion on comparing different items then so be it, but don't expect the rest of the world to bend to that view. That is the first time I've heard anyone support such a philosophy to comparing products, services or trends. It is so awkward I'm just going to have to chalk it up to a cultural difference, because I can't quantify it in any other way.

Originally Posted by ICE

indeed, as you missed the point entirely.


Sorry, the point was simply not a good one.

Originally Posted by ICE

When following the industry trend is actually a STEP BACKWARD from how you previously did things, what does that say to the customers?


Making a straight forward gifting system isn't "screwing their existing customers". An easier process is certainly a step forward.

Too bad about the loss of the other aspect, but it is expected. It comes down to the debate of selling digital licenses. There is no quality loss from transferring a digital item. I can play a digital game, sell it as "used", but the condition of the item does not degrade. If they allowed such a practice users would sell their digital licenses as "used" and in theory, the sales for "new" copies would come to a halt because there is literally no difference between a "new" and "used" download. This opens up a huge debate, but that is the reason why Valve, EA, and now ED do not support such practices. If I recall the main reason behind ED disallowing giving away of modules was because the majority were selling, and not giving it away, their old modules. Whether that is good or bad is up to each individual's opinion, but that is the reason for their decision (same with Valve, ect.).

Originally Posted by ICE

Source?


The main difference is you no longer have a CD key, but the license is tied to your account log in.

Originally Posted by ICE

And what is the new online check requirement?


I believe it was once every three days, but if I recall ED decided to increase the duration between checks after a big back lash. Don't exactly recall what they did though. Essentially you don't have to use the ridiculous activation / deactivation scheme, but now have online checks. Depending on how long the duration is, I might prefer the new scheme more.Although I think both are too restrictive...

#4424324 - 06/03/18 03:26 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Flogger23m]  
Joined: Jun 2002
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KeyCat Offline
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Sweden
Originally Posted by Flogger23m

Wrong. They did not release a full game at launch. It took months (almost a full year) to go from Alpha to Beta, and then many more months for the campaign parts. The game engine is not in a "solid state". ArmA 3's engine is about as good as EDGE, if not worse. So-so performance, single threaded, can't properly take advantage of GPUs - far too CPU bound to the point upgrading to a current gen GPU has little to no effect. The more units you place in a mission the more performance of the AI degrades to the point of uselessness. AI still walks through buildings, MBTs still flat spin out like Mario Kart occasionally, hands still clip weapon models in the first person. The list of issues is endless. To say the game and engine is in a "solid state" is utter nonsense. It very much resembles DCS in its current state years post release.


A3 is not single threaded and at least it utilize my GPU fully but you need a fast CPU and fast RAM to get that, "So-so" performance depends on your hardware just like every other game. I run A3 at max settings (some things like BLUR etc. is off since I can't stand it) at VD 4800 m as infantry and get 45-60 fps (V-sync on) @ 1440p resolution depending on action with my 2.5+ year old computer. I have pretty much the same performance in DCS OB while playing SP so no complaints there from me. MP is unfortunately a no-go and I've been given up trying until it's fixed.

Don't know exactly what you mean with "solid state" but if you are referring to game stability and crashes I can tell you it's been solid for years and never been in the state EDGE 2.5 currently is, just check ED forums, ppl crashes left and right! I actually feel a bit sorry for the dev's since I'm sure they want things to work as intended more than anyone else.

What you say about AI is true but since A2 BIS given us the "Headless Client" workaround so if you want to you can set up your own dedicated server and as many headless clients you want to share the AI load across all of them allowing for quite a few AI, think I've seen tests done with 800-1000 AI's using 1 DS and 2 HC IIRC (search YT if interested).

On top of that you can use various script/addon solutions that spawns/de-spawns AI depending on distance from you making it possible to have even more AI. One of them are the ALiVE mod that gives you a dynamic and persistive battlefield with pretty much endless AI (with or without Headless Clients).

http://alivemod.com

Regarding the MBT comments I agree that it used to be like that but if you haven't already you should try latest free 1.83 update (with or without the latest Tank DLC) and see for yourself. Tanks in A3 have improved 10 fold IMO, including new driving phys as well as completely new penetration/weapon modelling and modeled tank interiors in all MBT's and APC's.

BIS is not perfect nor is ED but I wished ED copied BIS way to work years ago when it comes giving information and listen to their customers. To start with, BIS lets anyone in to the Dev builds and gives daily changelogs of everything changed. You can start at page 1 from 2013 and continue to read the other 50+ pages yourself here.....

https://forums.bohemia.net/forums/topic/140837-development-branch-changelog/?page=1

Regulary posted SPOTREP's/SITREP's/OPREP's. Links to latest ones....

https://dev.arma3.com/post/spotrep-00080

https://dev.arma3.com/post/sitrep-00049

https://dev.arma3.com/post/oprep-fixed-wing-configuration

Since A3 day 1 they had an public bug tracker available to report bugs to if you want. Their devs are very active in the dev branch part of the forum and try to answer question/concerns directly and not via moderator proxys. Nothing wrong with moderators giving info per se but I rather hear it from dev's directly. I know and appreciate that Wags try to be present on the DCS forums but with BIS it seems like devs with different responsibilities are tasked to take some time to interact with the community. Maybe this is the case also in the RU part of ED forum I don't know since I can't read RU???

Clearly defined road map with releases pretty much on time every time...

[Linked Image]

Source: https://arma3.com/news/arma-3-roadmap-2016-17#.WxQQ2rWYPDE

I've been playing games/sims since the 80's (like many of you) and just want to say that BIS earned highest rank in my book when it comes to supporting their games and listen to their community. If you followed BIS since OFP days you will know that (I also followed ED since Flanker days).

I'm not anti ED and wish them all the best and hope that someday they will realize their vision about a Digital Combat Sim with everything we all want's (I.e. stable DCS platform, dedicated server with MP for 50+ players and some form of persistive and dynamic campaign) and get everything sorted out!


Last edited by KeyCat; 06/03/18 05:26 PM.

>> It's all about teamwork! <<
#4424395 - 06/03/18 09:36 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: Flogger23m]  
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- Ice Offline
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
That was to point out Ice's inconsistent ramblings. The OP was a rant. Which is okay, but humorous that the same logic he used in the past to make arguments have gone out the window with this most recent one. smile

Yet again, more baseless accusations. Just because you say so does not make it so, a concept that you still seem to struggle with.

You also seem to have an odd understanding of the words "inconsistent" and "rant" as that's the only way I can see how you'd be using those words here.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you hate what ED is doing, you should hate BIS as much if not more.

Even if ARMA was all that (which isn't if KeyCat is correct), how does that exactly help ED and DCS? So now we have TWO devs who fail at what they're doing instead of one. Does that mean ED is better? Let's even go all the way and say what ED is doing is industry standard across the board (it isn't, but just for argument sake, let's pretend), does that make ED better?

If ED is crap and BIS is crap, it does not mean ED becomes better, it just means both of them are crap. If ED is crap and all other studios are crap, it does not make ED any good, it just puts ED in the pile of studios that are all crap. I don't see how you're continuing this argument because even if you did prove your point (ARMA release being crap and ARMA being crap up to now), it still doesn't do anything to improve ED's reputation or standings.

Personally, BIS can be as crap as it wants to be (if it were to start with) but I don't care as I don't play ARMA. I do, however, play combat flight simulators of which ED is a part of, and that's why I post here and not on the ARMA forums smile



Originally Posted by Flogger23m
The inconsistency is the problem here. You whine that ED cannot be compared to similar products in the industry. Then you whine and support your argument by comparing their policies with others in the industry. Be consistent.

The only thing incosistent here is your reading ability. Read my last post and maybe digest it before typing out another response; I've already explained this.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If you want to talk about grasping at straws, read the OP. Literally the "discussion" is that ED are being meanies because they aren't going above and beyond everyone else in the industry.

Um, no, that's not what I said. Read it again.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Whining about something that petty is simply that, petty. smile
So I do ask, what is the issue presented in the OP? I don't see one. ED being meanies isn't a good argument.

Not being able to comprehend a post that is 105 words long and then calling me petty biggrin I love it!!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by ICE
That first line isn't a personal attack? Please convince me how that is the epitome of politeness and civility.

Politeness is a two way street. If you write in an aggressive, over the top, off the rails tone expect the responses to be of the same kind. smile

Ah, good! You responded to that! Now please show me where in this thread have I been aggressive, over the top, off the rails to you? Direct quote please! Feel free to screenshot it and highlight with a red square as you've shown you can do easily. Thank you!


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
You're the one who wrote what was quoted in the screen shots. smile
You didn't. The part circled in green is a claim you made.

Yes, and I also wrote the words in the green box. You know, the one where I asked for examples of OTHER AAA titles or dev studios promising release and then delivering a beta? That's asking for a direct comparison of ED's practice with other AAA titles or studios, so that kills your ED cannot be compared to others claim right there.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Although it was nice of them, your brother wasn't entitled to your used copy of FC2.

My brother is entitled to anything I say he's entitled to. Ha! And you know what? ED transferred the license over so even ED agreed with me there at the time.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
They're so mean! They aren't giving you bonus credit? That is illegal! No wait, it isn't. Big deal over nothing like usual.

Interesting how you don't see the inconsistency here and instead focus on "mean". I guess you've got no point to counter, eh? You buy a module, you get bonus points. You buy a module for a gift, you do not get bonus points. Consistent? Hardly. But that doesn't fit your narrative so let's just ignore that point, shall we?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Complain about the the obscenely accurate BMP-2s sniping Flankers out of the sky and I'll stand right beside you. Getting upset because you can't gift your digital license to another person's account is downright petty.

If the thread was entitled "BMP snipers in DCS", then it'll make sense complaining about those. Have you read the thread title?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
That makes absolutely zero sense.

It does. Open your mind and improve your comprehension a bit more and you'll understand.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by ICE
indeed, as you missed the point entirely.

Sorry, the point was simply not a good one.

Making the point over and over and over and over and you still missing it shows me the issue isn't with the point smile PICNIC.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by ICE
When following the industry trend is actually a STEP BACKWARD from how you previously did things, what does that say to the customers?

Making a straight forward gifting system isn't "screwing their existing customers". An easier process is certainly a step forward.

Previous system allowed people to transfer used modules to other users. New system does not, but it's a step forward? It may be easier for ED or whatever, but the "ease of use" is not the issue here, it is the capability of transferring used modules.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Too bad about the loss of the other aspect, but it is expected.

Yeah, you lose one good aspect of something but still call the new iteration "certainly a step forward"?? You sure use words in a different way. Must be a culture thing smile


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by ICE
Source?

The main difference is you no longer have a CD key, but the license is tied to your account log in.


[Linked Image]


This is just proof that you don't understand what is written or what's being asked of you. I ask for a source for your statement..... and I dont' even know what question you're answering in your reply, but it definitely doesn't give me the source for your statement.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Originally Posted by ICE
And what is the new online check requirement?

I believe it was once every three days, but if I recall ED decided to increase the duration between checks after a big back lash. Don't exactly recall what they did though.

I'd ask for a source for this claim but I don't think you understand what I'm asking for so nevermind.


- Ice
#4424396 - 06/03/18 09:37 PM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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@ KeyCat and Paradaz, thanks for your input regarding ARMA as comparison in this discussion! smile


- Ice
#4424631 - 06/05/18 03:52 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,726
bisher Online content
I'll be your Huckleberry
bisher  Online Content
I'll be your Huckleberry
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,726
Manitoba, Canada
I'm not sure a triple facepalm is necessary

Two max, but one facepalm seems more appropriate given the faux pas wink



#4424654 - 06/05/18 10:17 AM Re: Gifting System [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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biggrin biggrin biggrin
It's happened often enough in other threads that the third one gets added gratis wink


- Ice
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