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#4423724 - 05/31/18 04:27 PM The truth is out... here?  
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Since we're low on conspiracy theories today, look what the US Government has released:



And here's an interview with the pilot starting at about 5:00 on Fox News:



And here's supporting documentation released by the Government:

https://media.lasvegasnow.com/nxsgl...REPORT_1526682843046_42960218_ver1.0.pdf

So, are we alone? Or is all this fake, too?

I want to believe we aren't, but touching, feeling and definitive examinations and testing up close are far more revelatory than anecdotal evidence and grainy sensors.

Last edited by Mr_Blastman; 05/31/18 04:28 PM.
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#4423727 - 05/31/18 04:31 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Are we alone?


Maybe, maybe not. Up to now we have no direct hard evidence. Maybe one day we'll have it.


As for the video footage it's either a highly experimental plane or the video footage was doctored in some way.


Just think of this logically. If the US government knew without a doubt that aliens existed it would not be acting so nonchalant about it.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4423728 - 05/31/18 04:34 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Not like the US Government can govern the aliens. They're utterly powerless. And that thought... is titillating. =)

#4423736 - 05/31/18 04:52 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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I don't know whether this video is real or not, but I cannot believe that out of the billions of planets in the universe that just one -- Earth -- had intelligent life develop. They're out there. Somewhere. One day we may even meet them. That probably won't go well, since it seems the natural human reaction to things we don't understand is to fear it. And if we fear it we destroy it. Hope I'm wrong.

Maybe they will destroy us. Or maybe we'll play pick up basketball with them since they jump 10 feet high and have 6 arms.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4423738 - 05/31/18 04:56 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Belief in the existence of something in the absence of hard evidence is what you call "faith". So in that sense it really wouldn't be any different from religion.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4423742 - 05/31/18 05:02 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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No, I'd say it's more like playing the percentages.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4423744 - 05/31/18 05:04 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
...that just one -- Earth -- had intelligent life develop...


jawdrop When did that happen? I don't know, turn your back for five mins... biggrin

#4423746 - 05/31/18 05:05 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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If you believe we are alone, do you have hard evidence that we are alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."
If you believe we are not alone, do you have hard evidence that we are not alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."

Wasn't there someone who did a calculation of how even if the chances of life on other planets were miniscule, there'd still be thousands upon thousands of planets where life could exist?


- Ice
#4423748 - 05/31/18 05:07 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Moved_on]  
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Originally Posted by BeeDeeBee
Originally Posted by DBond
...that just one -- Earth -- had intelligent life develop...


jawdrop When did that happen? I don't know, turn your back for five mins... biggrin


Imagine if aliens visited Earth and the only thing they were allowed to read by humans was the Daily Mail?

I'm absolutely certain they would agree with your assessment!


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4423750 - 05/31/18 05:09 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
If you believe we are alone, do you have hard evidence that we are alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."
If you believe we are not alone, do you have hard evidence that we are not alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."




Sorry, it doesn't work that way. There's something called "burden of proof". The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim that something exists.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 05/31/18 05:09 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4423765 - 05/31/18 05:33 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry, it doesn't work that way. There's something called "burden of proof". The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim that something exists.

Fixed that for you.

There can be multiple claims within a debate. Nevertheless, it has been said whoever makes a claim carries the burden of proof regardless of positive or negative content in the claim.
Source


- Ice
#4423770 - 05/31/18 05:36 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
If you believe we are alone, do you have hard evidence that we are alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."
If you believe we are not alone, do you have hard evidence that we are not alone in the universe? No? Then that is "faith."

Wasn't there someone who did a calculation of how even if the chances of life on other planets were miniscule, there'd still be thousands upon thousands of planets where life could exist?


Yes, it was the "Where is everyone" comment and the Fermi Paradox, math estimated that even if there was a slight chance of another space faring life form, then within 50 million years (long since passed on the time scale being discussed), such a life form could have visited every star in the galaxy by now. IIRC, please correct my foggy memory, if in error.

But it hasn't been observed as fact. Another valid point is whether any space faring life form would have sufficient material resources for such a task.

But with regard to faith... IIRC, the scientific view is evidence based. If we cannot see evidence of life, there is no life. Evidence is the proof that changes belief into fact.

I'm no expert on anything, not a scientist, or math ace. But I think this is why the Fermi Paradox itself is by some considered not much more than an experiment, an exercise. It, by itself, proves nothing. I've read opinions that argue that because there are no facts involved, there is not even a paradox. But this is the realm of people who are far more educated and invested in these things that I will ever be.

Last edited by adlabs6; 05/31/18 05:38 PM.

WARNING: This post contains opinions produced in a facility which also occasionally processes fact products.
#4423785 - 05/31/18 06:05 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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There are already quite a few places where life **could** exist. Goldilocks planets, planets where water could exist or could have existed, and so on. I wonder if we have the tech to actually detect life on other planets instead of just detecting stuff/conditions that are known to support life.

Then there's the argument that we are not alone but we are so un-evolved that the advanced species just ignore us and what we are seeing is probably the more curious of their kind observing us. Kind of like you don't really interact with the ants under that plant on your front porch.


- Ice
#4423794 - 05/31/18 06:28 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Keep in mind we keep looking for life based on earth, and we still dont know how to categorize a virus and keep discovering life where it shouldn't, also besides all the blinds spots in the sky, just becouse a teliscope is zooming one area, doesnt mean the team using it is looking for evidence, so we may have found aliens already, but whoever was looking at them was looking for pulsars, space distortion looking for planets,stars etc.....not aliens comms, hell it could had been a massive ship and it would not have registered cos we were not looking for it

#4423795 - 05/31/18 06:30 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Keep in mind that even scientific “fact” is still largely faith based. Unless you did the research yourself to prove it, you’re taking someone’s word, or writing, on faith that something is true.
This coming from a society that can’t even agree if coffee and wine are healthy or carcinogens. Stories change from week to week it seems.
“Trust” or “faith” is the cornerstone for much of our beliefs, religious, scientific, social or otherwise. Sometimes you just have to go with what you can accept as true, even if you can’t prove it.
Just my .02.


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#4423797 - 05/31/18 06:38 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer

Sorry, it doesn't work that way. There's something called "burden of proof". The burden of proof falls on the person making the claim that something exists.


Well, the proof is that "intelligent" (isn't "sentient" a more accurate term?) species do exist in (our) universe - we, human beings!

So in the end we are the evidence of "intelligent" life in (our) universe. So and like DBond hinted, the existence of "intelligent" outside Earth/Solar system is a Statistical Probability (almost impossible for "intelligent" life other than us to not exist) and not faith, at least IMHO.

Now Aliens visiting our planet is a completely different matter! I agree that for those who believe in this, this actually falls into the "faith" realm and there's no evidence of this.

Why aliens still didn't visit our planet, there are a few "hypothesis" such as:
- Other "intelligent" species in (our) universe may not have developed Faster-Than-Light (FTL) travel technology, just like us Humans.
- If other "intelligent" species in (our) universe have developed FTL travel technology than they may not have reached out planet since for example they could have traveled to different or opposed "quadrants" of the universe relative to out Solar System.
- Like Ice said, even if an "intelligent" species have or had indeed reached Earth they may not have deemed the Human specie worth of being contacted.

But then again, the 3 points above fall into the "hypothesis" realm...

#4423799 - 05/31/18 06:51 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Raw Kryptonite]  
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Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Keep in mind that even scientific “fact” is still largely faith based. Unless you did the research yourself to prove it, you’re taking someone’s word, or writing, on faith that something is true.
This coming from a society that can’t even agree if coffee and wine are healthy or carcinogens. Stories change from week to week it seems.
“Trust” or “faith” is the cornerstone for much of our beliefs, religious, scientific, social or otherwise. Sometimes you just have to go with what you can accept as true, even if you can’t prove it.
Just my .02.


I find that kind of thinking odd. How would you prove that your mechanic actually changed your oil or put new brakes in? Short of actually witnessing the process yourself, you'd have to take his word. How would you prove that your doctor took out your appendix or gall bladder? You'll have to take his word on it. Do you know that the sun is hot? Or are you taking this on faith? For all you know, the sun could be cool; it's the daytime sky that's hot and when that sky is covered by clouds, that explains why it's cooler on a cloudy day.

There is a group of people who specialize in certain fields and certain studies are peer-reviewed. When that group accepts a "fact" after numerous other experiments come to the same conclusions, then that is a fact. You are of course free to replicate the experiment or test to validate the data for yourself, but you're only really wasting your time.

How do you define "fact"? How do you define "faith"?

faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I could argue that even if you replicated the experiment and got the same result, you've still put your trust/confidence in your faculties (eyes, touch, etc.) so technically, you're still accepting your own data based on your faith that your faculties are working as normal. This is why I find this line of reasoning odd.


- Ice
#4423801 - 05/31/18 06:54 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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How many known stars / solar systems are there again? starting to think that in future that those that believe this is the only planet with life will be considered the crazy ones band


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#4423820 - 05/31/18 09:01 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Raw Kryptonite
Keep in mind that even scientific “fact” is still largely faith based. Unless you did the research yourself to prove it, you’re taking someone’s word, or writing, on faith that something is true.
This coming from a society that can’t even agree if coffee and wine are healthy or carcinogens. Stories change from week to week it seems.
“Trust” or “faith” is the cornerstone for much of our beliefs, religious, scientific, social or otherwise. Sometimes you just have to go with what you can accept as true, even if you can’t prove it.
Just my .02.


I find that kind of thinking odd. How would you prove that your mechanic actually changed your oil or put new brakes in? Short of actually witnessing the process yourself, you'd have to take his word. How would you prove that your doctor took out your appendix or gall bladder? You'll have to take his word on it. Do you know that the sun is hot? Or are you taking this on faith? For all you know, the sun could be cool; it's the daytime sky that's hot and when that sky is covered by clouds, that explains why it's cooler on a cloudy day.

There is a group of people who specialize in certain fields and certain studies are peer-reviewed. When that group accepts a "fact" after numerous other experiments come to the same conclusions, then that is a fact. You are of course free to replicate the experiment or test to validate the data for yourself, but you're only really wasting your time.

How do you define "fact"? How do you define "faith"?

faith
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

I could argue that even if you replicated the experiment and got the same result, you've still put your trust/confidence in your faculties (eyes, touch, etc.) so technically, you're still accepting your own data based on your faith that your faculties are working as normal. This is why I find this line of reasoning odd.


A long time ago, people, experts, KNEW the Earth was the center of the universe. Why? Because with their own unassisted eyes, they could look up, watch the sun, moon and stars cross the sky. They KNEW it because they saw it and put it to their own test. You can too. Didn't make it true. For that matter, I haven't proven any better myself, just taken the word of others because I've seen pictures and a globe. LOL One guy a couple of months ago still believed the Earth was flat and so he built a rocket to try to go up and see for himself. He's probably a nut, but I still respect that he built a rocket and wanted to see for himself.
What could we all possibly be wrong about now that in 400 years the correct info will be common knowledge once we learn enough to reinterpret it?

Quote

There is a group of people who specialize in certain fields and certain studies are peer-reviewed. When that group accepts a "fact" after numerous other experiments come to the same conclusions, then that is a fact. You are of course free to replicate the experiment or test to validate the data for yourself, but you're only really wasting your time.


I agree, but we take it on faith that "they", the nameless, faceless, experts...are actually what they say they are. Then someone else runs their own tests and finds whatever it is to be wrong, that _____ is the fact of the matter. All verified by other experts...surely none of whom have an agenda. wink
What you accept as fact is limited to what you're willing to accept as fact, and that boils down to having faith in these people you believe. Some think the lunar landing was fake, some thing wrasslin' is real.
There are some sleazy characters on late night tv, selling their crap, testosterone enhancements and the like. They claim to be experts, but show no credentials. To me, I don't believe a word of it, but plenty of people out there buy that junk believing these guys to be experts. They choose to have faith in these "experts" whereas I do not.
I'm not a conspiracy nut, just pointing out that faith is a bigger part of what we accept as real than just religious beliefs.


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#4423821 - 05/31/18 09:15 PM Re: The truth is out... here? [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Again, it depends on how you define "faith." When evidence is out there and you can prove it to yourself or believe in the experts who have done it and verified it, you are accepting fact. The cool thing about facts is that it doesn't care whether you believe in it or not, it's there.

I think you're also confused with how peer-reviewed research works. When one team in Ohio publishes their findings and is confirmed by a team in China and another in the UK and another team in South Africa, I'm sure each team has an agenda but I doubt they all have the same one wink To compare these people to late-night TV people is just disrespectful. People who make decisions based on claims of these late-night "experts" are gullible. People who make decisions based on proven research data do not belong in the same group.


- Ice
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