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#4422840 - 05/26/18 09:30 PM Flaming Cliffs 4  
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Dondy Offline
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Just as you thought it couldn't get any worse ...

Quote

Originally Posted by NineLine View Post
Hey guys, just to clarify as I got some new info on this, the additional aircraft will be FC3 level version of existing modules. Existing FC3 customers will get a discount towards this update. Which aircraft will be announced later.


Another mind boggling decission. banghead


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#4422842 - 05/26/18 09:57 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Oh dear Lord!

Quote
Sure, but as stated above, just so expectations are set, the added aircraft will be FC3 versions of existing full modules.

Source

Thread


So basically, you have a DCS-level aircraft and then they will make a FC3-level version of that aircraft. Why? Why take on work that is already done? The thread title had me excited! Will we see a FC3-level F-22 or F35? Maybe an AH-64A as a precursor to a DCS-level AH-64D? What about a EF-2000? I'd buy that simply because I've been in 4 local airshows where this beast does afterburner flybys! Ha! No such luck!!

Some on-point responses:
Quote
FC4 was a chance to introduce new aircraft that wouldn't otherwise be in DCS because they can't be made in full fidelity format, and you go and just remove the full fidelity features from existing aircraft to sell them as "new" modules. That's incredibly stupid and so, SO lazy. I probably would have bought a Flaming Cliffs 4 module with new aircraft. I'm not buying this.

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That sounds like something I'll be passing on, for sure. If we were getting new usable aircraft from the existing assets, sure. That'd be cool. But if it's just a simplified version? Yeah, that's a hard pass from me.

Quote
This is a terrible idea. I'd pay for an FC F22 or Typhoon or Su-35, etc. Taking existing modules and selling a dumbed down version is a terrible idea that will create terrible issues for multiplayer. Suddenly FC4 aircraft will be easier to fly/superior in multiplayer to their full fidelity counterparts. Server admins will feel the pressure to include them to invite new players, but will have to face alienating owners of the full fidelity modules who will now find their $60 modules inferior to a $40 simplified multi plane module.

Use FC to include interesting aircraft that can't have their avionics modeled in full detail. Don't create more problems for the multiplayer community.

Quote
We cant get even one Russian 4th gen study sim, but apparently DCS, a series famed for it's clicky cockpits and for coming from the devs of the "Flanker" series thinks dumbing down it's main selling point will be a good idea? What?
Not even a FC level competitor to the Hornet that will dominate?

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Wow, I had such high hopes, and now this.........

What a disappointment.

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This just seems silly, why not expand the airframes available instead of underming their own sales by having 2 versions of the exact same aircraft?



This gem:
Quote
Quote
Originally Posted by NineLine View Post
It cant always be about long time customers, but also about growing the userbase. for long time customers you have things coming out like the F/A-18C. Also there are many long time customers that enjoy FC level aircraft. SO we can only really speak for ourselves. ED has a lot of numbers that show where they should go and what they should offer.

New customers are new. Existing FC3 are already fine to start with.



Nice to see a lot of "no" replies on the thread and watching NineLies answer concerns is just comedy gold!! Hiring this guy to do official PR for ED made as much sense as making FC4 featuring aircraft that already have DCS-level fidelity.


- Ice
#4422852 - 05/26/18 11:25 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Something has to pay for the additional 5 years of Hornet development that was never scheduled.....unfortunately, the Hornet early release funds have a big shortfall in covering the extra 5 years of 2.5 development that was never scheduled.

And so the vicious cycle continues.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422856 - 05/26/18 11:52 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Even so, I'd see the point in adding new aircraft to get more money, but simplifying DCS-level aircraft and selling them as FC3-level versions? What are they going to do? Remove the clickable cockpit, simplify the FM and avionics, and then expect it to sell enough to warrant the effort/resources to do the unnecessary work in the first place, much less pay for another module?

Also, I thought the increased price of the Hornet was supposed to make up for this shortfall?


- Ice
#4422860 - 05/27/18 12:02 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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As highlighted on the ED message boards, this is nothing more than a pointless cash grab by greedy incompetent devs that can skim off the functionality from the full fidelity aircraft, repackage them and then expect customers to buy them again.......and also sell FC4 off as a 'new' product to new customers.

It's pointless discussing it really, ED don't have a clue where theyr'e going and have never had a roadmap.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422865 - 05/27/18 12:50 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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I wonder if they actually do any thinking or any research before doing something like this. Old customers won't purchase this as they already have FC3 and/or the DCS-level modules they want. New players will be more attracted to FC3 due to the popularity of the airframes featured in that package. The only real market they have is that tiny population of their customer base that wants to fly a DCS-level aircraft but on a FC3-level fidelity. Someone who wants the Hornet/Viggen/F-5/M-2000C/A-10C but has not bought it yet in the hopes that an FC3-level variant would be made. I think there are about 5-8 of them smile

It would be so funny to have an A-10C at DCS-level and FC3-level as well! biggrin Having said that, couldn't you dumb-down the A-10C enough that it'll be even worse than FC3-level? I seem to remember one of the options was having a 360-degree magic radar that could see everything to help with pilot SA in one of the simpler modes.


- Ice
#4422867 - 05/27/18 12:57 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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F-16 please!!!!

and full fidelity F-16 eventually.

#4422869 - 05/27/18 01:06 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
F-16 please!!!!
and full fidelity F-16 eventually.

No joy there. The 4 aircraft for FC4 will be taken from their current roster of aircraft. Smart move for ED, yes? wink


ED doesn't listen to its customer base anyway so I fully expect them to go forward with this one. It'll be fun to watch. Guess this just shows me to stay away from the Hornet. It just goes to show how much of a priority it will be --- not even finished yet and there's talks/plans of the next cash grab. Would also totally suck for FC3 owners to have non-clickable pits but FC4 aircraft will have clickable pits, unless ED plans to remove those for FC4 which wouldn't surprise me at all.


- Ice
#4422870 - 05/27/18 01:08 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Quote
Quote
You guys are getting mad about something that was never promised to you. You are getting made about things you wished for, not that ED said you were getting.
This is the downside to being open and sharing more, sometimes the hype train mows you down.

Please don't blame the consumers for your poor communication.

Source
Oh my! I see the ban-hammer coming out!! biggrin


- Ice
#4422874 - 05/27/18 01:41 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Eh? i don't even!

So ED in another masterstroke of decision making, are going to cannibalize their own sales! Competing against themselves, Friggin' Jenius with a capital J (no not a g).

What a bunch of retards.

#4422881 - 05/27/18 02:54 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by nadal
F-16 please!!!!
and full fidelity F-16 eventually.

No joy there. The 4 aircraft for FC4 will be taken from their current roster of aircraft.



ah I see, I wasnt reading.

Actually not that bad decision they made, considering is good for catching new commer.

There is actually a dozen of friends that I hesitate to invite to this genre because of hurdles they have to overcome, installation, joystick, trackir, learning system...etc
This will definitely lessen the hesitation.

There is almost no reason to purchase if you have the modules already though.

#4422885 - 05/27/18 03:12 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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I am happy about the opportunity for a FC level aircraft that I wouldn't buy the "full" version of otherwise. I don't have the time to learn and stay proficient at multiple full "DCS" level modules, but am interested in addition FC level planes.

In my case it is incremental revenue, not canibalization.


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#4422908 - 05/27/18 10:17 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Way over in Perth, Western Aus...
What's the bet they will be WW2 aircraft?

The will prob dumb down a few of those and eg Fw-190, Me-109 and Spit in the hope of trying to reinvigorate their WW2 aircraft/terrain.


mdwa
#4422909 - 05/27/18 10:23 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: malibu43]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
Actually not that bad decision they made, considering is good for catching new commer.

How so?

Originally Posted by nadal
There is actually a dozen of friends that I hesitate to invite to this genre because of hurdles they have to overcome, installation, joystick, trackir, learning system...etc
This will definitely lessen the hesitation.

What's wrong with FC3 that you cannot invite them because of it? Would they not have to deal with installation, joystick, TrackIR, etc. regardless of FC3-level or DCS-level? The only thing less to learn would be avionics but even then, I would think that having to learn all those key combos (the entire cockpit, not just what's on the HOTAS) offsets any simplicity of FC3-level aircraft.


Originally Posted by malibu43
I am happy about the opportunity for a FC level aircraft that I wouldn't buy the "full" version of otherwise. I don't have the time to learn and stay proficient at multiple full "DCS" level modules, but am interested in addition FC level planes.
In my case it is incremental revenue, not canibalization.

I had you in mind there, malibu43! smile But how many of you are really out there? What is the size of the market that feels the same as you? Regardless, even if there were 1,000 of you out of 100,000 total customer base, FC4 as planned will only really cater to 1,000. If they made FC4 with new aircraft as others suggest, FC4 can cater to the entire 100,000 customer base. This is what makes it a facepalm decision.


- Ice
#4422910 - 05/27/18 10:25 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: mdwa]  
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Originally Posted by mdwa
What's the bet they will be WW2 aircraft?
The will prob dumb down a few of those and eg Fw-190, Me-109 and Spit in the hope of trying to reinvigorate their WW2 aircraft/terrain.

I was thinking that this could be a possibility, but what else can you do to dumb down a WWII bird? I can see simplifying A-A targeting and radar acquisition modes for modern aircraft, but there's no such issue with WWII aircraft, so how will they do it?


- Ice
#4422915 - 05/27/18 11:10 AM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Just some random thoughts:

- Expand the gaming mode options in the core game so that already existing modules will be easer to master (models will sure be on sale sometime so that new players can buy them at FC level price)
- Do NEW FC4 level planes and sell them for ... I don't know ... maybe 25$ (brings in new players but also old ones will probably buy it just to have some more toys to play with --> vietnam era would be my top prio)
- If you have the ressurcen and the information update some of the existing FC4 level AC to full fidelity standard and charge maybe 30-35$ for the update


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#4422918 - 05/27/18 12:20 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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my contribution to this discussion



smile

#4422928 - 05/27/18 01:42 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
[quote=nadal]... But how many of you are really out there? What is the size of the market that feels the same as you? Regardless, even if there were 1,000 of you out of 100,000 total customer base, FC4 as planned will only really cater to 1,000. If they made FC4 with new aircraft as others suggest, FC4 can cater to the entire 100,000 customer base. This is what makes it a facepalm decision.


I'm not going to spend a bunch of time trying to find posts to reference, but it's been mentioned before by Wags and ED mods that Flaming Cliffs aircraft are actually some the best selling aircraft and are that the very vocal group on forums and that play MP (and prefer only hard core modules) are actually a minority in their customer base.

So given that ED is the one with actual sales and market data and stating this makes sense from a business standpoint, I'd say the burden of proof is on those that wish to prove this wrong, not on me to prove why it's a good idea.

Last edited by malibu43; 05/27/18 01:54 PM.

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#4422933 - 05/27/18 02:14 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: malibu43]  
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I have no doubt FC3 aircraft are good sells but this is not only due to FC3-level fidelity, it also stems from the fact that we do not have DCS-level fidelity of these aircraft and when the featured aircraft includes the F-15C, Su-27/-33, and MiG-29A/29S, it's not hard to see the appeal. All of those aircraft for the price of (or less than) one DCS-level module? Very good value for money and a very good entry point for those starting in the simulation genre. Also given that this is the third iteration of that module, I'm pretty sure the profits from it are quite good considering how much work/investment has been put into it. FC4 is only similar in the sense that it will feature FC3-level fidelity. It will feature aircraft that have DCS-level modules. It will be the first of such a module. I am sure it will get some sales but eventually, people will realize that they can buy the DCS-level version and learn to work the aircraft once instead of twice, at which point we are back to the original target market such as yourself which IMO is a small percentage of an already small population.


Originally Posted by malibu43
I'm not going to spend a bunch of time trying to find posts to reference, but it's been mentioned before by Wags and ED mods that Flaming Cliffs aircraft are actually some the best selling aircraft and are that the very vocal group on forums and that play MP (and prefer only hard core modules) are actually a minority in their customer base.

So given that ED is the one with actual sales and market data and stating this makes sense from a business standpoint, I'd say the burden of proof is on those that wish to prove this wrong, not on me to prove why it's a good idea.

Of course ED will choose to listen to their silent customers and ignore the vocal ones. That's how you make money, isn't it? Make a poll, but then do not follow the results of your poll. Make a forum to get customer feedback, but then argue that a lot more people buy your modules and the vocal customers in your forum, the people who actually engage with you, the people who you can see as good word-of-mouth recommenders, these people are actually the minority and don't know anything about business. smile


Originally Posted by malibu43
stating this makes sense from a business standpoint

Constant delays and inability to meet their own deadlines?
Hiring NineLies as official moderator for their English forums?
I'd say ED first needs to prove to us that they know what they're doing!

I'd gladly take on the burden of proof if ED lets me in and show me the numbers so I can prove/disprove the claims. Besides, ED deciding to take on this project means they think it's a good idea. Does that not therefore mean the burden of proof is on them? smile I can easily point to all the "no" answers on their thread to show that a good number of people think it's a bad idea; they'll have to release FC3 sales numbers and ED forum membership numbers if they wish to disprove/negate that. Besides, just because someone is silent on the issue does not mean their answer is automatically a "yes."


- Ice
#4422946 - 05/27/18 03:17 PM Re: Flaming Cliffs 4 [Re: Dondy]  
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Ice - let's agree to disagree on this one smile


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