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#4422162 - 05/22/18 06:16 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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Panama Red Offline
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So kksnowbear, how are you suppose to measure your method you talk about above versus the old fashion FPS counter (my monitor is a 144 Hz, so I max out at that with the new AnKor mod now).


CPU = i9 11900K
GPU = RTX 3080 Ti
Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
#4422169 - 05/22/18 07:57 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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The Nvidia Profile Inspector has a graphing function called Flip Indicator that can be helpful in visualizing the interruptions in the flow of frametimes. In my case I use the Frame Limiter function to cap my system to 77 FPS most of the time to keep the CPU / GPU / 100 MHz GSync Monitor from ever outpacing one another and causing a micro-stutter or tearing.


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#4422185 - 05/22/18 10:26 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
So kksnowbear, how are you suppose to measure your method you talk about above versus to old fashion FPS counter (my monitor is a 144 Hz, so I max out at that with the new AnKor mod now).


Well, as I mentioned, a big part of this problem is that there's no readily available tool (at least that I know of) for doing what you're asking about.

However, that doesn't mean it's not a legitimate issue. For example, I know plenty of people who have lots of complaints with traffic, even though none of them really know much about measuring it or fixing the problem.

Far as I know, there's no law against recognizing a problem without being able to quantify and/or correct it - though I would definitely say that, in order to correct a problem, it's crucial to understand the problem first. And you can't understand something until you recognize it for what it is.

In my estimation, that's actually why this is actually a problem - because it's far too widely thought that higher FPS equals better performance; too few people recognize the problem that's really at issue isn't as simple as higher and higher frame rates. Like I said, look around - the internet is full of accounts where people have very high frame rates but still don't get smooth graphics.

Another unfortunate effect of this is that people often wrongly assume that buying better hardware will solve a problem that isn't because of hardware problems to begin with. If a game isn't well optimized, or doesn't take advantage of technology improvements as they come along, then buying better hardware isn't necessarily likely to help. (I think this may be what 4L0M was referring to above).

As for 'old fashioned' ...well, I don't really think I said or implied that - but I don't think measuring FPS of itself is wrong. It's a number that has a certain meaning, and can be useful within the constraints of what it actually measures. But it just doesn't seem to accomplish telling us how 'smooth' graphics performance is. I don't think it has anything to do with it being 'old fashioned', because I'm not sure it was really ever a good way to measure what really matters to begin with. I've been using FPS counters for maybe 20+ years now, and while I still think it has some value as a measurement, I happen to believe it's become misunderstood and doesn't really reflect what people often try to suggest it does.

I do really wish someone would come up with an tool that could accurately reflect what I think FPS is commonly used to try and represent. Maybe what MajorMagee mentioned above is a good method; I wasn't aware of it TBH. Unfortunately, what you often run into when trying to illustrate problems with games that have these issues is that people will then say running the utility itself causes the system to perform poorly...so it sort of defeats the purpose.

I hope this answers your question.

Last edited by kksnowbear; 05/22/18 10:28 PM.
#4422190 - 05/22/18 11:45 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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Panama Red Offline
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kksnowbear:
Since I have a G-sync monitor (which you know matches monitor refresh rate with GPU outlet to minimize stutters & tears) and my WOFF UE runs way above 60 FPS all the time now, all those stutters in the past are gone. This is why I like to keep the game FPS high because on my PC/Monitor, you can tell the difference in smoothness from when the game is running over 100 FPS versus down in the 80's FPS like it use to do.

Of course, If I turned off my FPS counter, I may not be able to tell 144 FPS from 80 FPS too, but I have not tried that since adding AnKor's latest mod yet.


CPU = i9 11900K
GPU = RTX 3080 Ti
Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
#4422201 - 05/23/18 12:40 AM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Panama Red]  
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Hellshade Offline
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Originally Posted by Panama Red
Of course, If I turned off my FPS counter, I may not be able to tell 144 FPS from 80 FPS too, but I have not tried that since adding AnKor's latest mod yet.


PR, I run a G-sync monitor also and I turned off my FPS (along with in game labels) some time ago. What I found was that the FPS numbers and the labels were a distraction from the sim itself. Pulling those two things out (speaking only for myself) turned out to be one of the best decisions that I made for my campaign experiences. Sure, I turned them back on briefly to see what effect AnKors mod had, but I have already turned them back off again. You might want to give it a try and leave them off for a week or so until you get used to it.

I figure once the sim is running smooth with nary a micro stutter (I get them rarely now at 6x time compression), the numbers aren't that important. The metric I was using to help tweak the sim to better performance became a distraction to the performance I now had.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4422203 - 05/23/18 01:06 AM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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Panama Red Offline
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Hellshade:
I understand what you are saying because with Ankor's latest mod, I have not had at any time in 1917 or 1918 the FPS drop below 65 and that was only for a brief moment.

Normally it is above 100 FPS at all times, unless I am coming in to land and then it may drop in the 70's, where before it dropped into the 50's at that time.

This is why I like AnKor's mod just as it is, but like Pol said, they will probably make it a option for you to pick higher FPS or better visuals for the next WOFF version. thumbsup


CPU = i9 11900K
GPU = RTX 3080 Ti
Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
#4422221 - 05/23/18 04:47 AM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
Good points, kksnowbear.

I just recently upgraded from a Nvidia GTX 460 to a Nvidia 1050 Ti. Before, I was getting framerates in the 30's and 40's, but no noticeable stutter. With the new card, my framerates are much improved, but the stutter has become more noticeable (not a killer for me, but still more noticeable than before). Sudden drops from 60 fps to 40 fps is apparently more noticeable to my eyes than a drop from 30 fps to 20.

Another thing I've noticed is that with the old card, the stutters lasted longer, akin to mini screen freezes. With a faster card, maybe the pauses are shorter and therefore appear as microstutters?


Yours is a good example, I think, of what I'm talking about - higher frames rates don't necessarily mean better overall graphics performance/smoothness/no (or less) stutter.

I think it's possible that the old card's seemingly 'longer' stutters might be related to a faster GPU and more dedicated memory on the new unit. But you'd also have to consider other changes made in your system (if any) at the same time the GPU was changed.

#4422223 - 05/23/18 05:08 AM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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I also have a g-sync monitor, driven by a 1070Ti, fairly capable of higher frame rates for sure.

The point, however, is that there isn't necessarily a direct relationship between higher FPS and smoother graphics overall/no stutter. You can have very high FPS and still have stutter; conversely, you can have lower FPS and it still appear fairly smooth.

But, regardless of 40 FPS or 144, if it changes by a significant amount, it's noticeable - and changes like this are often confused with being able to tell the difference between lower and higher FPS.

#4422417 - 05/24/18 12:34 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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Mike Dora Offline
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Like everyone here I've been impressed, nay delighted by AnKor's mod to eliminate those annoying blue triangles, they were quite an immersion-killer for what is otherwise a magnificent sim. My compliments to him, and also to all of the devs who have brought WOFF so very far from its CFS3-mod beginnings.

However I do have one remaining annoyance, a blue-grey unrendered zone visible below an ac on the ground when looking towards its rear quarters. The attachments show what I mean.

Does anyone know of a solution to this, or is it just another issue hardwired into the old CFS3 program? (BTW apologies if I missed this already being covered, I read through this now rather long thread but didn't see anything on it).

Mike

Attached Files Screenshot (21).pngScreenshot (22).png
#4422457 - 05/24/18 04:52 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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Panama Red Offline
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Mike:
How did you manage to do that ????

I have never seen these grey squares on any of my OFF3 / WOFF / WOFF UE games since I started playing years ago (blue triangles, yes, but grey squares, no).

Sounds like either a "reinstall" or a message to Pol asking him what your problem is.


CPU = i9 11900K
GPU = RTX 3080 Ti
Monitor = ASUS ROG Swift PG32UQX 2160p G-sync
#4422458 - 05/24/18 04:59 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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AnKor Offline
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It happens sometimes, CFS3 renders virtual cockpit in an odd way and the terrain gets clipped when it is too close.
I don't think it can be fixed with any config settings. I haven't tested this issue specifically, but maybe it is fixed in DX11 version.

The reason these bands are grey is because skybox for that weather is grey below the horizon, otherwise they would be blue.

#4422459 - 05/24/18 05:02 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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kksnowbear Offline
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I think this is not unheard of, and possibly still related to the original ("blue triangle") bug that AnKor has described. Maybe he could comment further.

I recall something along the lines of the triangles' color being a function of the overhead (sky/clouds); IOW if there's a blue sky the triangles are blue, and if it's gray (like in Mike Dora's images) the triangles will be gray. There were also more "white"-looking triangles that were very light gray, and were present with very light grey skies/clouds.

Why it works that way I've no idea, but I seem to recall it being mentioned more than once, by different people.

#4422460 - 05/24/18 05:03 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles! (and other improvements) [Re: Hellshade]  
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biggrin biggrin biggrin Cross-posted - and the master himself confirms what I'm saying.

#4422470 - 05/24/18 06:03 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Adger Offline
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Just asking Mike but you have edited this:?
"Additionally you should edit shaders30\Terrain.fx file and change 256 to 1024 in this line near the beginning of the file:
const static float fTextureSize = 256;
This is needed for terrain bump mapping to work properly with modified budgets."

Has per AnKors instructions on page 2 of this thread pal?


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#4422813 - 05/26/18 06:47 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Hellshade]  
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TBH I ain’t been paying attention to this thread as I thought “blue triangles” were part of life.
Jump around a bit and see a mod for it that also reportedly improves FPS?
Feels kinda Christmas-ee on a Memorial Day weekend. Can’t wait to try it.

#4422818 - 05/26/18 07:23 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Hellshade]  
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And before I started on the above I figured I would my dear friend Sandbaggers site to see what else I may have missed and Ankors mod is there and JGSME compatible. What a day.
Too bad it’s raining as I have to stop working outside and play WOFF now. Darn...

#4422925 - 05/27/18 01:14 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Hellshade]  
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I still can't believe there is a DX11 version for WOTR in the works. I know there are no guarantees but I am just so excited that it's a possibility. Fingers crossed.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4423164 - 05/28/18 08:57 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Hellshade]  
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For Adger,

Yes I followed AngKor’s instructions to the letter.

For AngKor,

Thanks for the confirmation/validation, but what do you mean by “maybe it is fixed in DX11 version”? How does one get that version (of WOFF UE?) please?

Mike

#4423177 - 05/28/18 10:06 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Mike Dora]  
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HarryH Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Dora
For Adger,

Yes I followed AngKor’s instructions to the letter.

For AngKor,

Thanks for the confirmation/validation, but what do you mean by “maybe it is fixed in DX11 version”? How does one get that version (of WOFF UE?) please?

Mike


Dunno if this applies to your use case, but if you are using JJJ's Mission Editor and routinely enabling the horizon "fix", try disabling it. I found odd ground texture problems were occurring with Ankor's mod when enabling the horizon fix.

H


System: i5 8600K @ 3.6GHz,16GB DDR4 @2666MHz. RTX2080, MSI Z370 mobo, Dell 27" G-SYNC @ 144Hz. 2560x1440

#4423190 - 05/28/18 11:11 PM Re: Mod to remove blue triangles? [Re: Mike Dora]  
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Hellshade Offline
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Originally Posted by Mike Dora
For AngKor,

Thanks for the confirmation/validation, but what do you mean by “maybe it is fixed in DX11 version”? How does one get that version (of WOFF UE?) please?

Mike


Short answer:
"You can't...yet."

Long answer:
The DX11 version is in the works for Wings Over The Reich (WOTR), which is the WWII flight sim the devs (OBD), AnKor and others have been working on for a couple of years now. IF AnKor is able to get DX11 to work in the sim engine, it will show up in WOTR first. Then with any luck, any cool improvements like DX11 will get ported back into WOFF UE.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

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