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#4421980 - 05/21/18 07:20 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Suicidal_6]  
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Originally Posted by Suicidal_6
I just got home from spending $77 on nachos and beer. The price of the modules is just nachos and beer to me, why not?

Because you only get 1/3rd of the nachos now, the rest at an unspecified time in the future, and the beer may not be the one you like biggrin


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#4421997 - 05/21/18 08:43 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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*shrugs*

Well, I've pre-ordered both.

PG map because it's not Georgia, and it is actually a smart choice as a political set-piece for modern ops. Heck, I know I'll get lots of hours of just using the mission editor as a 'laboratory' for seeing how various engagements would play out.

F/A-18C because I *heart* the baby bug. It's also the first aircraft that REALLY hits the center of the dart board: a true multi-role, 4th gen fighter. Time and Practice spent with the platform will yield higher dividends, as I can use that knowledge to tackle all sorts of missions: CAP, Intercept, SEAD, CAS, precision strike.

Plus, if the F/A-18C fails, I imagine the implosion of ED isn't far behind it. This is their flag ship product.

And hey, if nothing else, at least I'll get some cool screenshots, right? smile


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#4422000 - 05/21/18 08:52 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
[quote=Flogger23m]Most people don't care about ED's development time, but rather their own time.

Meaning?

Meaning the schedule that matters is the customer's. If ED is proud to make something in 3 years but the customer demands that it be done in 2 years then that is the only schedule that matters in terms of customer satisfaction. The customer might not be reasonable but that is irrelevant; he cannot be told he is satisfied. Satisfaction is not a decision for anyone but the customer.

#4422002 - 05/21/18 08:59 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: - Ice]  
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Which is exactly what I meant with this statement:
Originally Posted by - Ice
No doubt about that, but then the issue here is the ED development time. God forbid they get another private contract before they finish the Hornet!


Having said that, I think we've all been giving ED reasonable timeframes which they still fail to meet. Heck, ED gives ED timeframes which ED still fails to meet!! biggrin


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#4422008 - 05/21/18 09:18 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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It's funny how times have changed. If you go back a ways...we were always being preached to about being "patient" as we waited sometimes years for certain things from ED. Now they have me conditioned to the point where I can wait another year for the Hornet no problem. Somehow, they managed to suck the life and excitement out of new flightsim airframes. I'm perfectly content to let others beta test (on their dime) some pre-alpha, half finished, cash grab until it's more fleshed out into a full product on sale for 50% off a year or two from now.

This is in stark contrast to the flight sim heyday of the 90's where I would have been beside myself with anger if I got my Falcon binder, or my Jane's FA/18 box and manual, one day later than any else. So I guess...thanks ED for not making me care that much anymore. wink

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#4422019 - 05/21/18 10:21 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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I missed that boat, Force10. Too young at the time! Maybe missing that golden age is a good thing? wink


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#4422070 - 05/22/18 06:30 AM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted by Frederf
Originally Posted by - Ice
[quote=Flogger23m]Most people don't care about ED's development time, but rather their own time.

Meaning?


Meaning people want something now because they have time now. The future is not guaranteed. Some people value their time and want to spend it doing what they want while they can.

I just purchased the map. $40 for a map (!) was hard to swallow, but it will be my first game related purchased in months and likely will be for most if not the rest of the year depending on how things play out. That is my main reasoning behind spending that much on it. Not a whole lot else is interesting me out there industry wide. The BF5 reveal of being in WWII (I really doubt I'll buy it until it is 50% off) essentially sealed the deal. Just nothing new that interests me right now.

I really wanted to get the Hornet, but I'd rather wait until it gets developed more. $60 is a lot for something that may take well over a year to get to where it needs to be. May the confirmed "Flaming Cliffs 4" with four aircraft will be detailed and take my interest from the Hornet anyways.

#4422073 - 05/22/18 08:29 AM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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After nearly dying 4 years ago I decided I was not going to wait for things to be 'finished'. Nobody knows how much longer they have on the planet, I get stuff as soon as I can because otherwise it might be too late.
After a decade of using a CH stick and pedals I've recently spent well over a grand on new flight sim stuff, and I'm lucky if I spend a couple hours a week playing. $50-$60 on a plane, or a map means nothing.I want it now.

Last edited by Speyer; 05/22/18 09:35 AM.
#4422116 - 05/22/18 02:37 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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I went ahead and purchased the hornet and the map yesterday. I typically wait for things to go on sale or be at a reduced price. I figured it was likely going to be a while before either one of these was on sale aside from the pre-purchase and wanted to have the opportunity to mess around with them if I wanted. Honestly I am looking forward to the combination of the new map and the hornet. It will probably be a good while before I really dive into the hornet but I will enjoy dabbling with it here and there as it is getting "finished"

#4422163 - 05/22/18 06:28 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Speyer]  
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Originally Posted by Speyer
After nearly dying 4 years ago I decided I was not going to wait for things to be 'finished'. Nobody knows how much longer they have on the planet, I get stuff as soon as I can because otherwise it might be too late.
After a decade of using a CH stick and pedals I've recently spent well over a grand on new flight sim stuff, and I'm lucky if I spend a couple hours a week playing. $50-$60 on a plane, or a map means nothing.I want it now.


I've been developing an AH-64 Sim for a number of years now. It's highly polished and is just going through last bits of testing. Price is £2000 for early release....if you can send payment to my Nigerian bank account I'll send you copy.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422172 - 05/22/18 08:33 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by Speyer
After nearly dying 4 years ago I decided I was not going to wait for things to be 'finished'. Nobody knows how much longer they have on the planet, I get stuff as soon as I can because otherwise it might be too late.
After a decade of using a CH stick and pedals I've recently spent well over a grand on new flight sim stuff, and I'm lucky if I spend a couple hours a week playing. $50-$60 on a plane, or a map means nothing.I want it now.


I've been developing an AH-64 Sim for a number of years now. It's highly polished and is just going through last bits of testing. Price is £2000 for early release....if you can send payment to my Nigerian bank account I'll send you copy.


Now that's the way to totally dumb down the conversation Paradaz



#4422173 - 05/22/18 08:56 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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Eh, I think it had been decimated before my reply. We can all see why ED continue to release unfinished crap with no intent to ever iron out bugs or actually finish what they start.......what's the point anyway? the customers are happy to keep funding this mechanism and will clearly buy anything they care to release.

The vicious circle will forever continue. I'm not sure if it's people being gullible, stupid, blissfully ignorant or something else.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422208 - 05/23/18 01:41 AM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Eh, I think it had been decimated before my reply. We can all see why ED continue to release unfinished crap with no intent to ever iron out bugs or actually finish what they start.......what's the point anyway? the customers are happy to keep funding this mechanism and will clearly buy anything they care to release.

The vicious circle will forever continue. I'm not sure if it's people being gullible, stupid, blissfully ignorant or something else.


Well another member almost passed away and they decided to enjoy their time as best as they can while they're still living. Someone else may only have 6-8 months before they are unable to play PC games for a few years (deployment or similar) and they'd rather get something semi interesting and enjoy what they can get now. Those are fairly valid reasons but you don't seem to accept them. Obviously you may not like how others rationalize how to spend their time, but then you're wandering off into "stop liking what I don't like territory".

If the game industry as a whole was a lot better then ED wouldn't be able to get away with early access. They didn't create or even popularize the concept and the backlash won't be big enough to make them stop until they're the outlier. They're merely following the trends of the industry. You won't do much of anything by complaining about the small insignificant studio unfortunately.

The good thing is after a brief visit to the ED forums it looks like more posters are concerned about missile performance and core engine work than new modules than in the recent past. At least that is what I can tell after a quick skimming of the forum.

#4422225 - 05/23/18 06:17 AM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: BigDuke6]  
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It's nothing to do with a 'stop liking what I don't like' rational.........It's everything to do with 'it will never improve until people change their ways'.

We have a lazy, uninterested, greedy developer and a customer base feeding their habit. The people that are happy to fund this should never complain, the same can't be said for other products though.......I'm sure the same people that accept this wouldn't buy a car for example and then let the manufacturer pull their pants down and just pass sub-standard support and build quality off as a 'we only live once' excuse.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422291 - 05/23/18 07:16 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Meaning people want something now because they have time now. The future is not guaranteed. Some people value their time and want to spend it doing what they want while they can.

Except that by doing so, they are most likely jeopardizing the "future" of the module. Sure, it's not guaranteed to happen, but ED has shown this to be the case now so it's more likely to happen rather than not happen. You summed it up nicely in your last statement:
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I really wanted to get the Hornet, but I'd rather wait until it gets developed more. $60 is a lot for something that may take well over a year to get to where it needs to be.



Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If the game industry as a whole was a lot better then ED

I'm gonna stop you right there and ask you for proof of other game devs that are similar to or worse than ED?


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
They didn't create or even popularize the concept

Nobody's accusing them of such so let's not strawman in that direction. Besides, even if ED did not create/populatize early-access, ED is taking it to absurd levels, just like Star Citizen is doing with their pre-order ships smile


Originally Posted by Speyer
After nearly dying 4 years ago I decided I was not going to wait for things to be 'finished'. Nobody knows how much longer they have on the planet, I get stuff as soon as I can because otherwise it might be too late.
After a decade of using a CH stick and pedals I've recently spent well over a grand on new flight sim stuff, and I'm lucky if I spend a couple hours a week playing. $50-$60 on a plane, or a map means nothing.I want it now.

I understand that feeling, Speyer and wish you the best of luck!


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#4422294 - 05/23/18 07:18 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
'it will never improve until people change their ways'.


Maybe YOU should change your ways, then...?

#4422304 - 05/23/18 07:50 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Zoomie13]  
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Originally Posted by Zoomie13
Maybe YOU should change your ways, then...?

And suddenly the onus is on the customer???


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#4422310 - 05/23/18 08:34 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
We have a lazy, uninterested, greedy developer and a customer base feeding their habit. The people that are happy to fund this should never complain, the same can't be said for other products though.......I'm sure the same people that accept this wouldn't buy a car for example and then let the manufacturer pull their pants down and just pass sub-standard support and build quality off as a 'we only live once' excuse.


I don’t agree with this for a number of reasons.....

ED is a tiny player compared with software houses/publishers who can guarantee funding for a project & not release it until fully “complete”. For smaller houses, pre-purchase is a way to improve cash flow & project funding - but it also effectively shifts the costs/risks of project failure to the consumer. We pay in advance for something that may be late or run out of funds before complete. This is not ideal for consumers, but it may well come down to a choice of us carrying the risk vs the project not happening at all.

Comparison to car manufacture is not a good example. Manufacturing has predictable outcomes, software development is closer to an art. I am a developer & at the point of starting any complex project I never fully know how & when it will end. Project Managers try to control this, but fundamentally you can not fully predict /control the outcome of something that has never been done before.

Per my earlier post, complex flight sims are a niche & no software house will get rich writing software for such a small market. Developers must share our passion for the genre & I don’t think “greed” is the driving factor.

I am not making excuses for everyt shambles ED or 3rd parties have created - just setting a context on why pre-purchase & buggy/incomplete modules are a reality in this hobby.



Last edited by eonel; 05/23/18 08:35 PM. Reason: Typo
#4422315 - 05/23/18 09:00 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: Zoomie13]  
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Originally Posted by Zoomie13
Maybe YOU should change your ways, then...?


I've already changed my ways, after getting burned with paying for the KA-50 module three times (or four if you count the initial Russian release in 2008) and countless other modules that are still unfinished many years after the 'release', I've stopped buying any more until they offer a certain level of polish. I bought everything on offer on pre-release up to a point but stopped short of the Mirage followed by the Viggen, Harrier, Spit and Normandy, and and won't until I see some intent to actually fix the many problems still present. The same applies to the Hornet/Persian Gulf map as I have no trust in ED anymore.

Originally Posted by eonel
We pay in advance for something that may be late or run out of funds before complete


I disagree, I'd wager that pre-release funds for pretty much every module are used up by ED's inability to plan, integrate, test and release the core engine such as 2.5. Given that it was many years late and incorporated multiple dev streams I'd suggest ED hemorrhaged funds like nothing ever seen.....how was all that work paid for? I reckon money created on pre-release software is pretty much extinguished almost immediately....and this is why they bounce from new module to new module without actually finishing anything. It's ED's way of generating funds to pay for their own incompetence.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4422319 - 05/23/18 09:11 PM Re: Purchase F-18/Persian Gulf? [Re: eonel]  
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Originally Posted by eonel
ED is a tiny player compared with software houses/publishers who can guarantee funding for a project & not release it until fully “complete”. For smaller houses, pre-purchase is a way to improve cash flow & project funding - but it also effectively shifts the costs/risks of project failure to the consumer. We pay in advance for something that may be late or run out of funds before complete. This is not ideal for consumers, but it may well come down to a choice of us carrying the risk vs the project not happening at all.

So how is ED different from other sim devs such as Laminar Research, 1C/777 Studios, Sim155, etc.?

If a dev group cannot finish a project before selling it, maybe they should review their scope and adjust their project to their budget? If a dev group sells a project (module) as early access, should they not be obligated to work on that project (which is essentially already paid for) until it is finished or at least at a very good level of completion?

I fully understand your point and agree with most of it -- except for the application of it to ED. Yes, smaller studios can benefit from pre-purchase orders or crowdfunding/kickstarter and I've cited two games that I've supported this way. The extra funds can allow the small studio to "survive" a bit longer and add more content to their project upon release or hire more people so that the project releases on time but with more content. Those studios invest their funding in that way; ED does not.


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