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#4421239 - 05/17/18 05:48 PM AI aircraft dive limitation mod?  
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Hail mary pass since it has been brought up from time to time. AI pilots seem to be able to dive any distance and at very steep (near vertical) angles and then pull out without suffering any structural integrity failure to their craft.

THE REQUEST
Is it possible to mod the AI to either detect the stress levels of the wings and limit their dive accordingly OR limit how far each particular type of craft will steep dive (Spads much longer than N11s, for example) before switching to another tactic so that the AI might more closely simulate how pilots would handle their craft historically during air combat?

THE CLARIFICATION
I know this gets tricky because sometimes the AI fakes a "death spiral" and then pulls out several hundred feet lower in an attempt to lose their pursuer and escape the combat. That is a perfectly understandable move by the AI, and in fact I love that. What I am referring to are the ultra steep, extended dives, often at a slightly cocked angle, that would appear to push a machine past its limits and for which players in the same aircraft find well near impossible to replicate because their wings suffer massive damage if not outright catastrophic failure.

THE HOPE
Success in making the AI pilots fly within similar structural integrity limits of players would keep the dogfights higher in altitude and lasting longer, instead of losing a lot of altitude quickly and fighting down on the deck. It should lead to "more time dogfighting and less time diving. It may well also reduce the number of dogfights that make it to the deck level, since they are more likely to be resolved at higher altitudes."

THE BONUS
If Novice AI were most likely to push their aircraft past its limits and rip their wings off, Average pilots less so and Aces virtually never. Probably impossible, but would be cool if it could be done.



Last edited by Hellshade; 05/17/18 06:32 PM.

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#4421327 - 05/18/18 03:01 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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In principle, I am all in favor of this idea, the problem, of course, is that we don't have access to the code that would probably be required to implement your suggestions. Unfortunately, both the FM and the AI flight manuever schemes are encrypted files in WOFF.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421328 - 05/18/18 03:06 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
In principle, I am all in favor of this idea, the problem, of course, is that we don't have access to the code that would probably be required to implement your suggestions. Unfortunately, both the FM and the AI flight manuever schemes are encrypted files in WOFF.


Well poo. LOL

But perfectly understandable given all the time and effort the devs put into creating them. Ah well, maybe someday. I think it would take the air combat to yet another higher level of "realism." Then again, maybe the devs had their reasons for not doing this.


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#4421331 - 05/18/18 03:20 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Quote
I wonder if a shortcut would be not to introduce gforce damage to the AI planes at all, but rather lump all planes into one of perhaps 3 categories of dive capability and then simply limit how long (or how much altitude it can lose) before it pulls out whenever the AI specifically does the steep dive manuever. Low quality planes dive for the least amount of time before pulling up into another move, moderate for a bit longer and then planes like Spads could dive much longer and farther. The AI would then pull out of the dive based on the assigned value (or before hitting the ground) before wing damage would likely have occured, simulating (very roughly) the extent that the plane could handle that type of dive. Of course it wouldn't be perfect, but it would be more realistic than an AI controlled EIII or N11 power diving a few thousand feet and pulling out to escape the player who has no hope of folllowing. Bonus would be to include skill in the determination, where AI ACE pilots could dive a bit farther (due to their skill), moderate would use the default values and Novice AI pilots wouldn't be able to dive as far for fear of ripping their wings off and not really knowing the limitations of their craft. Again - not perfect - but still moving the ball forward a bit.

What do you think?

Interesting idea, but how do we "communicate" this information to the AI? Short of changing the code, how would the sim and AI "know" that they are in a steep dive that might potentially rip off their wing? I'm sure there is some way for the code to communicate this to the AI, but how do we lowly modders gain access to it?

Another problem is calculating the physics to distinguish between a relatively peaceful and non life-threatening shallow dive vs. a death defying screaming power dive. Would we want the AI to prematurely terminate a relatively shallow dive simply because of the expiration of an artificial time limit?

I wish I could be more helpful, but I am afraid my tiny brain may not be up to the task. Perhaps other modders have some better ideas?


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421333 - 05/18/18 03:28 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
In principle, I am all in favor of this idea, the problem, of course, is that we don't have access to the code that would probably be required to implement your suggestions. Unfortunately, both the FM and the AI flight manuever schemes are encrypted files in WOFF.


Well poo. LOL

Ha! biggrin

Quote
But perfectly understandable given all the time and effort the devs put into creating them. Ah well, maybe someday. I think it would take the air combat to yet another higher level of "realism." Then again, maybe the devs had their reasons for not doing this.

Perhaps after WOTR Gold has been released, OBD will unencrypt the AI routines or release modding tools that will enable us to finally fiddle around with this stuff! Can you wait for another five or ten years? wink


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421345 - 05/18/18 07:04 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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I look at it this way. As a junior pilot you would be surely rapped over the knuckles for "Following an enemy down" by your superiors for several reasons.

1) It's a form of target fixation that leaves you vulnerable to attack.

2) It dangerously stresses both aircraft.

3) Being low exposes you to ground fire (Probably by from both sides IRL)

4) Being low cedes a tactical advantage to other enemies in the area.

5) The formation is weakened by your selfishness

It's perfectly reasonable to disregard these things in a simulation for the sake of fun, especially if you're an aggressive flyer who likes to notch up victories (Hellshade!). However, in doing so you're deliberately subjecting yourself to a quirk in the game that you probably shouldn't be flirting with too often for the sake of your virtual life. I rationalize this maneuver by the AI to be a desperate attempt to survive, preferring to take their chances with the factors listed above rather than continue to fight under unsatisfactory tactical conditions and, as such, I personally prefer to view my own excursions down after them as a tactical mistake when they do occur (Yes, I go through dry spells and get agitated enough to follow them down too.) Note that these lapses often result in the untimely death of my pilot by archie or by having to fight outnumbered in a damaged machine.

However, it is also possible that you may be in a formation whose leader initiates such a maneuver as a means of opening an attack. In which case it is understandable to either follow him or to descend at a more reasonable speed to provide a kind of "overwatch" for the members of the formation who do the actual engaging. (Not as much fun as shooting at them yourself but an important role nonetheless.)

I've also noticed that these dives often tend to be performed in a very and tight rapid spiral that, in it's own way, simulates an enemy feigning a spin to descend to low altitude. As such, I'd prefer that they remain since they are a part of what makes the combat in WoFF less of a tedious meat grinder, like some other simulations, and more of an authentic battle for survival. Generally I don't consider myself to be an apologist for things that are clearly unrealistic but, in this case, I choose the AI meteor maneuver over the AI meat grinder that would certainly ensue, were the AI to be deprived of this means of escape.

With that said, I think that the ideal compromise wouldn't be a mod that removes the power dive entirely or one that subjects the AI tot he same physics as the player at the expense of performance but, rather, an AI who is less likely to initiate such a maneuver.

Last edited by Ace_Pilto; 05/18/18 07:15 AM.

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#4421364 - 05/18/18 11:57 AM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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BluckeyeBob,

I wasn't aware the AI and FMs had been encrypted. Unless modders can get access to them, I too see no way to change the AI Meteor Dive behavior. My guess (which is probably wrong) is that each of the various moves does indeed have a name and short "script" to follow where the AI decides based upon numerous variables and when things looks bad and they need to "get the hell out of Dodge City", they choose the Meteor Dive move. If we had access, then someone might be able to modify that move to somehow be less extreme. But as you say, they are encrypted. Maybe someday!


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videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4421368 - 05/18/18 12:15 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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I do not think the AI FM is encrypted. It is just integral part of CFS3 code which we do not have access to. I assume the AI FM is quite different than f¨FM of human player, missing overspeed and overG control routines, so, for the sake of code simplicity, AIs do not need to be aware of these limits.
Just my 2 cents.

#4421373 - 05/18/18 01:03 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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I know Rex coded the AI decisions so that rather than randomly choosing what they do, its based upon weighing a bunch of factors. I presume that means they have a series of "moves" to choose from. If there was a way to access the AI code, you might be able to simply block out the "Meteor Dive" move and redirect it to the fake death spiral.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
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#4421378 - 05/18/18 01:21 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Originally Posted by Hellshade
I know Rex coded the AI decisions so that rather than randomly choosing what they do, its based upon weighing a bunch of factors. I presume that means they have a series of "moves" to choose from. If there was a way to access the AI code, you might be able to simply block out the "Meteor Dive" move and redirect it to the fake death spiral.

Hellshade, that IS an intriguing possibility. Earlier, I misstated about the AI routines. What I meant is we don't have total access to all the AI decision-making and FM algorithms. However, I have glanced (but not recently) at the AI files that aren't encrypted. It's possible we might be able to mod them--how much, I don't know.

As a temporary, although simplistic and somewhat clunky workaround, you might experiment with turning on "AI fights to the death" in Workshop to see what effect it may have on the death-dive behavior. Unfortunately, turning on this option creates other problems, as I'm sure you are aware. But your above suggestion is interesting.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421381 - 05/18/18 01:30 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Well I'd probably bump up their morale modifier overall to be honest, generally they tend to run home to momma a little too frequently. (And I'm talking formations of scouts who panic and flee because they saw a 2 seater, it happens)

Last edited by Ace_Pilto; 05/18/18 01:32 PM.

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#4421387 - 05/18/18 01:51 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
As a temporary, although simplistic and somewhat clunky workaround, you might experiment with turning on "AI fights to the death" in Workshop to see what effect it may have on the death-dive behavior. Unfortunately, turning on this option creates other problems, as I'm sure you are aware. But your above suggestion is interesting.


I will give that a try. If anything, it might tell us if that is the move the AI goes to when Morale fails completely. If it still happens, then maybe the move isn't tied to morale.

It would be great if you guys could take a look at the files. Obviously this behavior has been there since the beginning and isn't a "game breaker." It would just be cool to see it modded to somehow more realistically take into account the limits of the aircraft, if possible.

[Edit] Ace - bumping up their morale might delay the behavior long enough to get a longer lasting fight out of them for sure. Naturally, that increases the deadliness of the sim, given that they would fight longer. Even though I've only had one serious campaign pilot get near the 200 hour mark (most die between 40 and 100 hours), I would probably be okay with that. Maybe them fighting longer and harder would get ME to run away more often as my situation became more desperate!

Last edited by Hellshade; 05/18/18 03:14 PM.

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#4421407 - 05/18/18 03:19 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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The relevant file appears to be the simulation.xml file located in the main OBDWWI Over Flanders Fields folder. It contains information related to AI flight behavior while in formation and solo, as well as a list of various AI flight manuevers, such as pursuit and Chandelle, although there is only very limited information about how the AI might choose one manuever over another. Detailed information about that is likely buried in an encrypted file. One manuever in particular seems interesting to me. The manuever in question is "SpiralInF," although I have no idea what the "F" might mean. Fake spiral in, perhaps?

The formation flying section is interesting, although again it mainly only lists a few broad courses of action for the AI and the various factors (moral, damage, etc.) that influence these choices. For example, it appears (depending if the AI is flying a scout or a two-seater) that the AI has four broad choices when engaged with an enemy. They appear to be: "continue on," "withdraw," "run away," and "go home." The actual routines for these tactics appear to be buried in an encrypted file somewhere, so it's hard for me to say how "withdraw" differs from "run away" for example.

Maybe one of the devs would be so kind as to drop just a couple of very broad hints?

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 02/08/21 03:55 PM. Reason: correct location of simulation.xml file

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421409 - 05/18/18 03:27 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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Great find, BB. I agree SpirallnF may well be the Fake Spiral (which I think is a great move the devs put in). I wonder what the difference between "withdraw" and "run away" are. "Run away" sounds more desperate, but that doesn't mean anything.

Do any of the manuevers sound like they could be the "Meteor Dive" move? I can't wait to get home and start looking. Awesome stuff.


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#4421410 - 05/18/18 03:28 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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The simulation.xml file has a setting for morale weight factor, which obviously controls how much influence a pilot's morale may have on the decision to fight or run away. Does anyone know the file that contains the actual morale for different classes of pilots? I bet it depends on a number of complex factors, such as experience and squadron quality, to name a few.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421411 - 05/18/18 03:32 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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My guess is that withdraw refers to a tactical withdrawal. If the AI can regain an advantage, it may re-engage. If it's triggered to runaway, my guess is it will do it's best to "get the hell out of Dodge" and fly to the nearest airbase. This may even include starting with a desperate death-dive, but I can't know for sure without access to the actual routines.

I wonder if the sim has a debugging mode that might enable us to see some of these AI decisions in action? Hmm....

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 05/18/18 03:37 PM. Reason: Additional thoughts added

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421413 - 05/18/18 03:41 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
My guess is that withdraw refers to a tactical withdrawal. If the AI can regain an advantage, it may re-engage. If it's triggered to runaway, my guess is it will do it's best to "get the hell out of Dodge" and fly to the nearest airbase. This may even include starting with a desperate death-dive, but I can't know for sure without access to the actual routines.

I wonder if the sim has a debugging mode that might enable us to see some of these AI decisions in action? Hmm....


I *thought* that I saw in the Key Commands there was a version of the Lables that let you know what the AI was "thinking" at the time. I could be wrong.


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#4421415 - 05/18/18 03:46 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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The only manuever that suggests a death-dive while still fighting may be "reverseUnder" but I think it merely refers to a split-s manuever, rather than an actual dive. My suspicion is that the death-dive is one of the first moves that occurs when the AI has "decided" to runaway or go home, as I suggested in my previous post.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4421416 - 05/18/18 03:50 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
The only manuever that suggests a death-dive while still fighting may be "reverseUnder" but I think it merely refers to a split-s manuever, rather than an actual dive. My suspicion is that the death-dive is one of the first moves that occurs when the AI has "decided" to runaway or go home, as I suggested in my previous post.


That makes sense. Bumping pilot Morale somehow may end up being the indirect way of pushing off the behavior itself if there's not a way to target that specific move. Of course, thats just another nut to crack but it may not be as challenging, hopefully.


Flying Wings Over Flanders Fields: Between Heaven & Hell II
videos at www.youtube.com/hellshade68

#4421417 - 05/18/18 03:51 PM Re: AI aircraft dive limitation mod? [Re: Hellshade]  
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There is a "labels activity" button, but the only activities I've seen are "taking-off," "in-transit," "fighting," "going home," and "landing." I don't recall ever seeing any other labels, but I may have missed them, particularly if I am in the middle of a dogfight!


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
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