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#4417449 - 04/23/18 03:13 AM Re: A Marine general led a fictional Iran against US military – and won [Re: Ssnake]  
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Originally Posted by Ssnake
Maybe they were, maybe there was miscommunication. All I've been saying is that the story that has been told in the reports that we heard is told from Van Riper's perspective. By definition, at least 50% of the story is missing. I don't know if the other 50% would confirm or contradict the story that we know. I've just been trying to hint that the story is a good one that pushes all the emotional buttons that confirm our bias against bureaucracies and high level functionaries, that it's a re-telling of David vs. Goliath which is one of the most successful stories ever told. But, it's a story.

I don't think I have anything left to contribute. I'm beginning to repeat myself.



Ssnake what makes you believe and say that it is just a story?


Stupidity is invincible.

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#4417458 - 04/23/18 07:11 AM Re: A Marine general led a fictional Iran against US military – and won [Re: No Fear]  
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Germoney
EVERYTHING that you read in a newspaper or that's told to you in a narrated film is a story. That does not necessarily mean that it's untrue or fiction. But it usually follows the rules of storytelling. There must be a beginning, an ending, some action, acting people. A good story will often have a hero and a villain, a surprising twist, and the story that we heard about the Millenium Challenge checks all these boxes. It's not a spreadsheet, or a formal report of an inquiry. We have no primary sources - no mission briefings, none of the original statements (except for a few exerpts that all reflect a single person't point of view - who happens to be the hero of the story), not a collection of statements from a multitude of witnesses from a formal hearing. So, when it comes to pass judgment of the actions, I think we should be very careful to treat everything at face value.
I'm not saying that Van Riper is lying, or that the story is made up. But everything is told from his perspective, not much context is given, and he's the hero of the story. That should get all your alarm bells riniging. Maybe it is like we're being told. Maybe there's more to it. I have tried to outline what that "more to it" could be. I'm not saying that it was like that. But this is why I'm withholding judgment. I know just enough about military exercises to see that there could be another explanation for what happened, assuming that everything that was reported in the story is "true, but not without omissions".

The reason why we're on page two of this thread already is that I'm pitching a weaker, alternative story against the original narrative which follows the structure of one of the strongest that we know, David and Goliath (boy, the Bible writers knew what they were doing). I could soup it up by framing the same facts in a different context ("embittered Marine retiree continues long-standing feud with Army personnel that try to salvage a horribly expensive exercise that his vengeful attitude threatened to jeopardize, then goes to press for a smear campaign"). I don't think that would be very nice to say, and I have nothing to back up such a claim, but notice that it would still be in alignment with the actual facts; it's just a different story. As illustrated, one can write multiple stories from the same facts. The original author may even be genuinely convinced that he adequately covered the incident. Maybe he checked multiple sources and finally went with this story because he actually discovered a scandal. Or maybe he just heard it at a bar, and decided that it was too good of a story to ruin it with alternative viewpoints. Who knows?


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#4417468 - 04/23/18 11:09 AM Re: A Marine general led a fictional Iran against US military – and won [Re: No Fear]  
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Ssnake I understand (and quite frankly do not really disagree with) most of what you say.I too am in no position to be 100% sure of what happened during this exercise.
But then again that is the case with pretty much everything in our lives!

What I was trying to say all along was that at first glance General Van Riper achieved an amazing feat!But when you delve deeper you realize that questions are raised about both what the Blue AND Red forces did and how they did it.

However,I wouldn't call it a ''story''. On the internet you can find more about this issue and not just from General Van Riper's side.
For example from the wiki link : ''Navy Captain John Carman, Joint Forces Command spokesman, said the war game had properly validated all the major concepts which were tested by Blue Force, ignoring the restrictions placed on Van Riper's Red Force that led them to succeed. Based on these findings, Carman stated that recommendations based on the war game's result on areas such as doctrine, training and procurement would be forwarded to General Richard Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.''


Stupidity is invincible.

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