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#4415721 - 04/10/18 06:45 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice


It will still find a customer base as "superior" may be subjective; I'm sure if they made an F-16 at FC3 levels, it'll still find a customer base. It'll probably be the same people who buy every module as well. smile




I'd be all over a FC3 level F-16! I'd also argue this is would be the better approach for ED, frankly.

For me, the reason I've never really been able to get into BMS is that there's no "dip your tow in the water" approach. An FC3 level module would be both quicker/easier to develop, and be more approachable for those who don't want to take the time to learn every single system in an F-16. It's 'lack' of features in that case would be an asset.


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#4415725 - 04/10/18 07:27 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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Originally Posted by AggressorBLUE
Originally Posted by - Ice


It will still find a customer base as "superior" may be subjective; I'm sure if they made an F-16 at FC3 levels, it'll still find a customer base. It'll probably be the same people who buy every module as well. smile




I'd be all over a FC3 level F-16! I'd also argue this is would be the better approach for ED, frankly.

For me, the reason I've never really been able to get into BMS is that there's no "dip your tow in the water" approach. An FC3 level module would be both quicker/easier to develop, and be more approachable for those who don't want to take the time to learn every single system in an F-16. It's 'lack' of features in that case would be an asset.






I would certainly buy an FC3 level F-16. That would be perfect. I also agree that it would likely be simpler, cost less up front and take less time (and more time = more lost money). I know some people will complain like they always do, but I think it would sell fairly well. They can always make a full fidelity module down the road and re-used the flight model, artwork and sounds.

Now according to some posters they claim an FC3 level modern fighter won't be that much cheaper or easier to make. I'm a bit skeptical of that, but I assume simplified avionics will save a lot of programming time. As seen with the Hornet, it seems as though the various avionic systems seem to take the longest.

#4415740 - 04/10/18 09:54 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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If they had remained at the FC3 level, we'd have WHOLE lot more airplanes and a MUCH more satisfying game, I think. I fly the F-15 a lot. It's fun. And it cost me 9.99! A game a couple of steps above the complexity of Strike Fighters but with the present, state of the art graphics, would have been perfect. I tend to think that things got a bit overly ambitious.


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#4415745 - 04/10/18 10:14 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
If they had remained at the FC3 level, we'd have WHOLE lot more airplanes and a MUCH more satisfying game, I think. I fly the F-15 a lot. It's fun. And it cost me 9.99! A game a couple of steps above the complexity of Strike Fighters but with the present, state of the art graphics, would have been perfect. I tend to think that things got a bit overly ambitious.

Yup!!!


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#4415746 - 04/10/18 10:21 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: AggressorBLUE]  
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Quote

I'd be all over a FC3 level F-16! I'd also argue this is would be the better approach for ED, frankly.


+1

And I would by a FC3 level AH-64A or D in a heart beat and if a study version was released down the road it would be icing on the cake.

FC3 level planes/heli's would really help getting new blood (the younger generation as well as ppl with limited time) interested in flight sim's! As mentioned above FC3 level planes/heli's could always be followed by same plane/heli as a study sim. This way they would probably sell two product's to many customers interested in a specific plane/heli instead of one.

As already mentioned, if they had this approach long time ago we would have many more planes/heli's today and maybe also stable base game.

Really don't understand their thinking to label current version as release version due to the many issues still remaining???








Last edited by KeyCat; 04/11/18 12:23 AM.

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#4415757 - 04/10/18 11:24 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted by Pooch
If they had remained at the FC3 level, we'd have WHOLE lot more airplanes and a MUCH more satisfying game, I think. I fly the F-15 a lot. It's fun. And it cost me 9.99! A game a couple of steps above the complexity of Strike Fighters but with the present, state of the art graphics, would have been perfect. I tend to think that things got a bit overly ambitious.


I'd think so as well. But even an FC3 level plane won't be $10. It was only that cheap because of the FC3 bundle and that it was an update applied to older aircraft. I'd expect an FC3 level plane to be $30-40 at release if it is an advanced aircraft like an F-16. I'd happily buy an F-16 pack that came with multiple variants for a little more though. But I think that ship has sailed long ago. It seems like ED is only interested in high fidelity modules. Perhaps military interest is the driving force behind the F-16 module which would mean high fidelity.

#4415778 - 04/11/18 01:02 AM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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I don't think an FC-style DCS module will ever be made again.

#4415812 - 04/11/18 07:34 AM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by AggressorBLUE
I'd be all over a FC3 level F-16! I'd also argue this is would be the better approach for ED, frankly.

For me, the reason I've never really been able to get into BMS is that there's no "dip your tow in the water" approach. An FC3 level module would be both quicker/easier to develop, and be more approachable for those who don't want to take the time to learn every single system in an F-16. It's 'lack' of features in that case would be an asset.

I somewhat understand the sentiment, but I don't understand what you mean by no dip your [toe] in the water approach? Maybe start a thread on the Falcon 4 sub-forum to explain this so we don't clutter up this thread, but would love to know what you mean.


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I know some people will complain like they always do,

Not if ED is up-front and honest and clear with what they're setting out to achieve and do it. Hype-ing the hell out of things and then failing to deliver is what gets them.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
As seen with the Hornet, it seems as though the various avionic systems seem to take the longest.

It's not the avionics systems that are causing the delays. smile

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'd expect an FC3 level plane to be $30-40 at release if it is an advanced aircraft like an F-16.

No. FC3 has set a precedent and they'd have to start hype-ing the thing to justify a release at that price. Maybe bundle it with an opposing aircraft, come up with something like EECH or EEAH and it'll sell for that price. But then again, people are buying 60% of current modules at 100% of it's price, so....


Originally Posted by KeyCat
Really don't understand their thinking to label current version as release version due to the many issues still remaining???

The same reason they issued a "fix" to the memory issue by making an excuse and increasing the minimum requirements for their game.


- Ice
#4415832 - 04/11/18 11:31 AM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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whatever form the DCS F-16 takes - it will probably arrive no sooner than 2021-22 and be out of beta by 2023-24.


#4415887 - 04/11/18 06:57 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice


Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I know some people will complain like they always do,

Not if ED is up-front and honest and clear with what they're setting out to achieve and do it. Hype-ing the hell out of things and then failing to deliver is what gets them.


What ED does or says is largely irrelevant. Few people read the forums or fall for marketing gimmicks. An FC3 level aircraft will bring out a massive wave of complaining. Bringing an F-16 will also bring a massive way of complaining. "We can play it in Falcon!" "F-16s are done to death!" "Not another western plane!" An FC3 level F-16 will bring out the whiners in full force. biggrin

Originally Posted by - Ice
As seen with the Hornet, it seems as though the various avionic systems seem to take the longest.

It's not the avionics systems that are causing the delays. smile
[/quote]

Then what exactly is it?

Originally Posted by - Ice

No. FC3 has set a precedent and they'd have to start hype-ing the thing to justify a release at that price.


Not to anyone who uses some common sense. FC3 was an upgrade to aircraft many of us had paid for many times over (LOMAC, FC, FC2, FC3). Hence the lower price - it was an upgrade. Something from the ground up will understandably cost more. And an F-16 is more advanced, even if simplified, than an A-10A or Su-25. It would likely require more work and therefore cost a bit more ($30-40).

Bundling it at a discount is a great idea but if one module is done they may as well release it first without waiting for another. Developing two similar opposing modules is always a great idea (IMO). F-16C Block 52 and MIG-29K would go well together.





#4415890 - 04/11/18 06:58 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
whatever form the DCS F-16 takes - it will probably arrive no sooner than 2021-22 and be out of beta by 2023-24.

I think you mean Hornet. DCS F-16 may be announced in 2021. biggrin


- Ice
#4415899 - 04/11/18 07:39 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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wink

if they start developing the F-16 next year that is when those who want to buy it should expect it to arrive, who knows ? maybe the DCS F-16C will be out of beta in the time for LockonFiles.com 20th anniversary ...

#4416041 - 04/12/18 05:53 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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If....


- Ice
#4416051 - 04/12/18 07:17 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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when the time frame to release is years from now - there is also the "who cares" reaction ....

#4416055 - 04/12/18 08:03 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Frederf]  
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Frederf said:
Quote
I don't think an FC-style DCS module will ever be made again.


I agree, programmers are bored with developing games like FC3, but posts on this website demonstrate that's what sells! (Number of posts on FC!)

In addition, developers use very high end systems to develop software... time is money they may have 20 code windows open at one time, (but text is minimal) but developers usually develop on high end systems and dont worry about user specs....that's not a consideration for the developers, but IS a consideration for the producers.

Most developers want to push the envelope, that is, they want to develop something state of the art, unfortunately for the company, many users like those here, dont care, they want reliable functional code so they can play in the same manner they have in the past only with, better graphics and most sophisticated electronic modeling.

I think the next and most difficult step is creating a new engine that utilizes multiple cores, a real challenge as its conceptually difficult to split and anticipate user input to effectively utilize multi-core processors.

My hat off to DCS, for taking on this task...other than hard core developers at BMS that do it for the personal satisfaction and challenge what other companies are treading here? Easy for non-programmers to criticize!

My only criticism of DCS is the number of projects and partially finished projects they have on board , but I suspect they need the money to stay alive! Too bad!

Easy to say another company will take up the niche, but will they be better? Il-2 Cliffs of Dover, folded and taken over by Team Fusion dedicated hard core enthusiasts, similar scenario to BMS, code ahead of its time, not until adoption of more powerful computers, and extensive mods came along to give the game a new life.

Fortunately for users, programmers are always pushing the envelope, they are years ahead of the users conceptualization, but sadly bullet-proof functionality always lags behind, and that's where the users and money lies!

#4416115 - 04/13/18 11:29 AM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Slippery_Rat]  
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My SSD packed it in last week, new one finally arrived. 2 ways to look at it......I can only put it down to the fact that it was old age or it could be fact that DCS was installed on it. Either way.....Back in action gents.

#4416142 - 04/13/18 02:56 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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The fact that it rained the last two days, i think that was EDs fault too.

#4416143 - 04/13/18 03:29 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
The fact that it rained the last two days, i think that was EDs fault too.


not necessarily, you are clearly being prejudiced against ED!
if where you live is suffering a drought
and
out of the blue
it started to rain - suddenly
and it continued to rain for two whole days
and that could be tied, in some way, to DCS
you would be grateful.

I always wondered if the weather settings in DCS has the power to influence weather ... pity there is no DCS map for where I live ...

but when I fly P3D, and it is raining here , where I am
I noticed that it is also raining in P3D when I fly over home ...

is it a coincidence ? I don't think so.
( wink )


#4416155 - 04/13/18 04:28 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Slippery_Rat]  
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Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
when the time frame to release is years from now - there is also the "who cares" reaction ....

That is true smile


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
I agree, programmers are bored with developing games like FC3, but posts on this website demonstrate that's what sells! (Number of posts on FC!)

Nothing on here is representative of anything. While we are mostly negative on here, go to Facebook or ED forums and "what sells" may be totally different.


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
but developers usually develop on high end systems and dont worry about user specs....

And that's a perfecly legit way to alienate your customers. Oh, you don't have at least 32 GB RAM? No SLI 1080Tis? No 1TB SSD? Then you're SOL as you don't meet this game's minimum requirements. No. Smart devs also think about how their product will scale with different hardware. It's useless developing the perfect game for a 1080Ti if it will look like crap on anything other than a 1080Ti.


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
Most developers want to push the envelope, that is, they want to develop something state of the art, unfortunately for the company, many users like those here, dont care, they want reliable functional code so they can play in the same manner they have in the past only with, better graphics and most sophisticated electronic modeling.

Are you talking about other devs or are you including ED devs in your statement? If you're talking about other devs, maybe you are right. If you're talking about ED, then I'm not sure if it's the devs fault or someone higher up in the management chain but fact still remains the end product is a mess. Reliable functional code that blames RAM usage on number of units on the map? Code that renders MP almost unplayable for the most cases?


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
My hat off to DCS, for taking on this task...

So for you, it is the attempt that deserves recognition, not the end result of that attempt? So if they bite off more than they can chew.... hats off to them? That's weird.


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
My only criticism of DCS is the number of projects and partially finished projects they have on board , but I suspect they need the money to stay alive! Too bad!

Again, biting off more than they can chew, so they're now borrowing from Peter to pay Paul. Had they managed their project better, a fact often raised in these forums, they'd be in a better financial position and they'd have a happier, more content user base.


Originally Posted by Slippery_Rat
Easy to say another company will take up the niche, but will they be better?

Have you seen the bar that ED has set? It's not hard to be "better" at it. smile I'm sure if ED releases stuff in a broken beta state 4 years late, the next company might be able to release stuff in a less broken beta state 2 years late without much effort, but I hope whoever picks up the mantle will know how to manage the project properly and will know how to make realistic targets and deadlines and actually meet those targets and deadlines.


- Ice
#4416164 - 04/13/18 05:39 PM Re: DCS: F-16C by EDSA & BST [Re: Winfield]  
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You guys are talking like they would be rebuilding the wheel. They are about to launch a full-fidelity FA18. that means alot of the tech will be reused.

Now to build anything like Microprose's dynamic campaign engine would take that long, for sure, but making another US FIghter, now that they have the systems to push the F14, 18, and AV88, shouldnt take that long, really. stuffs not hard-coded

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