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#4412571 - 03/24/18 02:05 PM Vulture  
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My plan is to start a thread on every ship in Elite smile

Actually, I hope it isn't down to me. I'd love to read about the other ships you guys are flying, your opinions and builds. How you use it, how effective it is under various configurations. Otherwise, eventually, you might see a Keelback thread from me smile

[Linked Image]

So last night I was at the CG and had the FDL and the Courier there. Flew them both and had a blast. I also whistled for the Vulture, as I didn't want it to feel left out. I hadn't flown it in a while.

The Vulture took 22 minutes to ferry over, and cost about 200k for the convenience. The CG station, Lyakhov Dock, is a good one, with a great selection of ships and modules and excellent for outfitting, so I had a look at my current Vulture build. I had been gimping it because I wasn't taking advantage of module priority, wasn't pushing it's limits due to power constraints, and wanted to have another look at it to see how it could be improved.

Frankly, it was a bit of a mess. It's such an amazingly agile ship in Elite that I had built a bad one and still loved flying it. I had put way too much HRP on it (1300 integrity!), had 10 jump range due to a sub-optimal FSD and all that armor, and also had a D rated scanner to save the power. Shields were 435mj, with a 5A and one booster. Even this build smokes everything in a RES. But clearly I could do better.

I began by shedding most of the HRP. I cut the integrity by 2/3 to about 480. If the shields never go down, all of that HRP is just mass, and doesn't help at all. I swapped the 5A shield generator for a 5C Bi-Weave and two boosters. It's now 444mj, so a very small increase in strength. But it's a Bi-Weave, so it uses less power and regenerates much faster.

I changed the A rated Life Support to D to save power and weight. Frankly, I only fly this ship in RES and CZs, so always fairly close to a station and if I can't get back in 7 1/2 minutes well too bad for me. That's what insurance is for.

With the reduction in power draw through these changes, I swapped the FSD for a 4A and jump range is now 16, which I can live with, same as the Courier and better than the FDL. I swapped the 3E gimballed pulse laser for a second Multi-Cannon. Utilities are two 0A boosters, a point defense and a chaff launcher.

The end result is over the power limit and module priority takes care of that. But it is much lighter and jumps farther. Here is current build (19m credits/ 1 million re-buy)

Vulture Build

The thing that jumps out at me is the current mass is 42% of the optimal mass for the thrusters. No wonder it flies like it does. It's actually under the minimal mass. What does that mean? I feel like my optional internals are still a mess. I have undersized HRP and MRP in there just in case. Undersized because I probably won't need them and wanted to save weight from the larger ones. Still, it feels I am not making the best use of the optionals. How are you guys running yours? The FDL is my Interdictor ship, so not looking to put one in the Vulture. I've never used a SCB, don't think I need one. I've not put armor on any ship before that I can recall either. Maybe back on the Eagle or Viper or Cobra I did.

I just had a look through this thread and I feel my build stacks up well with what others are using. Most of them are heavier, slower and have more hull integrity. My build is lighter, faster and has a bit more shielding than many of these. One of those Vultures is 53m! Armor is expensive.

Why does shedding all of this weight not affect it's speed? Jump range went up, but speed didn't change at all.

Good grief this thing can fly! After the Courier, FDL and Chieftain -- all very capable, well-handling combat ships -- I was amazed. Nothing flies like a Vulture. I had said in my Chieftain review that at full speed the Vulture is sort of a pig. That it only shines in the blue. Hogwash! Maybe compared to it's own in-the-blue performance it does, but compared to everything else? Nothing I've flown anyway compares. It's only true downside is top speed. I'm glad I didn't sell it. For pure combat flying in a RES, you can't beat the Vulture. Having had a chance to fly these other fighters was good, because it gave me fresh comparisons, and showed me exactly how amazing the Vulture is. I guess I had been taking it for granted, and had it bogged down with too much weight.

Attached Files Vulture.png

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#4412634 - 03/24/18 09:43 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Note that you're still usig the old, old version of Coriolis, so some of those numbers may very well be wrong.
https://eddp.co/u/TtkUoP1a

Fixed your module priorities too.

Unfortunately, I don't pew-pew as much and I don't think many people are interested in a build full of cargo holds or collector limpets smile


- Ice
#4412638 - 03/24/18 09:58 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Hmm, I check for that now. Anyway, figures are the same.

Quote
I don't think many people are interested in a build full of cargo holds or collector limpets


Au contraire mon frere. I would be interested.


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#4412872 - 03/26/18 04:10 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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I keep tweaking the Vulture, this one named Wasp. I thought I would benefit from increased range of a better sensor suite, so upgraded from 4C to 4A. I needed to drop the class of one of my shield boosters to accommodate it since I'm right at the power limit. Since I fly it exclusively in RES, I felt the ability to more quickly sort and target the juiciest bounties would prove a nice advantage, and it is. Not sure if it's worth the shield reduction, but it's fun to play around with.

I've also waffled on the weapons. I tried dual gimballed multi-cannons and it shreds. But in a one v one against a maneuverable, high-shield adversary, it's difficult to collapse his shields with only kinetic. I tried dual gimballed pulse lasers, but that's too much distributor draw and either I need to control my firing more, or add pips. So I'm back to one pulse and one MC, just where I started.


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#4412902 - 03/26/18 05:57 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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With your original fit, putting both MCs to PRI 2 and the Cargo Hatch and Fuel Scoop to PRI 3 was fine, only the Cargo Hatch and Fuel Scoop would shut down once weapons were deployed. Upgrading to 4A sensors would put that delecate balance out of whack, raising your power requirements from 105.5% to 109.9%

For the low, low price of 1 Sulphur (maybe 2 Sulphur, 3 if the RNG gods hate you), you can get Grade 1 Overcharged and apply it to your Power Plant and you will get 98.1% total power requirement. You can deploy hardpoints without shutting down anything. You can upgrade to 3C gimballed Beam Lasers (117.9%) but with the modded PP, bring that down to 105.3%, and following the power priority scheme of weapons on PRI 2 and Cargo Hatch and Fuel Scoop on PRI 3, you'll be able to deploy weapons (99.6%).

Be careful going down this road though. I spent most of the last 2 days of gameplay unlocking Hera Tani for access to Grade 5 Power Plant mods and Grade 3 Power Distributor mods.


- Ice
#4412908 - 03/26/18 06:06 PM Re: Vulture [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

Be careful going down this road though.


No worries there! biggrin

I appreciate your reply, as always. I guess you will not be documenting your experience after all? No worries, I have to accept I am alone in the compulsion to share everything I do with folks who probably weren't wondering.

I will engineer, eventually, as you know. But isn't it more fun to have to choose between a good sensor and better shields? For now it is, I'd reckon. But that day is coming!


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4412909 - 03/26/18 06:06 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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My Original Vulture weapon load out was 2 gimbaled pulse lasers. Pulse allowed me to maintain firing longer (3 pips WEP) and do more damage than if I was running the dual Beam laser. Power is the problem. Engineering is the answer.

Wingy

Last edited by WingNuts01; 03/26/18 06:07 PM.

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#4412919 - 03/26/18 06:23 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
I appreciate your reply, as always. I guess you will not be documenting your experience after all?

I can, if you want, but a bit busy with other things. Here's a new tidbit --- I'm down to 2M credits in the bank after losing the Cutter to a mailslot mishap that never should've happened. frown

Originally Posted by DBond
I will engineer, eventually, as you know. But isn't it more fun to have to choose between a good sensor and better shields? For now it is, I'd reckon. But that day is coming!

I prefer not to choose smile Why limit myself when I don't have to? Will you fly with a 4B power plant when you can well afford a 4A power plant and your local station is selling one?


- Ice
#4412932 - 03/26/18 06:55 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Well, surely I would have found it interesting and useful. But it only matters if you wanted to do it.

It's one thing to know that a G5 drive costs this or that amount of flux capacitors. But it's much more enlightening to read how many places were visited, how each engineer was unlocked, how many jumps and light years, what the credit cost was, the trial and triumph of it all. That's what I was hoping for, but I had no expectation, and you no obligation. Just would have found it interesting reading, especially from someone experiencing it all for the first time.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4412935 - 03/26/18 07:01 PM Re: Vulture [Re: WingNuts01]  
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Originally Posted by WingNuts01
My Original Vulture weapon load out was 2 gimbaled pulse lasers. Pulse allowed me to maintain firing longer (3 pips WEP) and do more damage than if I was running the dual Beam laser. Power is the problem. Engineering is the answer.

Wingy



Thanks Wingnuts. For a while, I thought that SYS pips affected the recovery rate for depleted or collapsed shields*. But it also affects the strength of the shield, is this right? So I've been cutting back on my pip management in combat . I try to have a build that works well on default pippage to avoid weakening my shields in order to get more sustained fire from a overburdened power distributor. Sometimes it's necessary, like when being pummeled, but in the main I've been off the pip!

* More SYS pips actually increases the capacitor recharge, not the shields, correct? But indirectly, filling the capacitor more quickly restores shields faster because the capacitor won't drain so easily?

More WEP pips doesn't increase damage, just power available to the weapons?

ENG pips increases thruster power, so the ship is both faster and more agile?

We should have a pip thread.


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#4412946 - 03/26/18 07:35 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Well, surely I would have found it interesting and useful. But it only matters if you wanted to do it.

Wanting to do it and being able to actually do it are two different matters smile

One thing I'm thinking of as well is that talking about the Cutter all the time might be useless to people as it's an end-game ship and with the rank wall, it's even more out of reach.

Originally Posted by DBond
It's one thing to know that a G5 drive costs this or that amount of flux capacitors. But it's much more enlightening to read how many places were visited, how each engineer was unlocked, how many jumps and light years, what the credit cost was, the trial and triumph of it all. That's what I was hoping for, but I had no expectation, and you no obligation. Just would have found it interesting reading, especially from someone experiencing it all for the first time.

I can do that, and definitely more to share than just trading.


- Ice
#4412952 - 03/26/18 07:47 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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More pips to shields actually BOOSTS your shields, makes them tougher. A 5C bi-weave has these stats with 2 pips (balanced)
Raw - ABS - KIN -THM -EXP
317 - 475 - 792 - 396 - 950

4 pips
Raw - ABS - KIN -THM -EXP
317 - 792 - 1321 - 660 - 1585


5A thrusters with 2 pips
SPD - BST - FRQ - PIT - ROL - YAW
232 - 394 - 20s - 4.0 - 1.4 - 9.1

4pips
SPD - BST - FRQ - PIT - ROL - YAW
244 - 394 - 9.4s - 3.7 - 1.4 - 9.1


So with engines, it does not make you faster per se, but it allows you to boost more often. It doesn't improve handling much either outside of pitch authority, but that's sometimes where it's all at smile


- Ice
#4413327 - 03/28/18 05:37 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Pip management is critical when in combat. With most all my builds I begin the fight with 2/SYS, 1/ENG and 3/WEP. As the fight progresses I'll move to 3/SYS or even 4/SYS depending on shield health. If the target is getting down on hull I'll go to 2/SYS and 4/WEP to finish the event. Then, reboot the ship to get back 50% of my shields. Never, never, never just leave pips! You need to manage them consistently through the conflict.

Here is a thread I read this morning;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/418935-Pips-shields-and-engeneers

And this was buried in it. Should still be relevant to current release;
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/336123-How-Pips-alter-shield-effectiveness

Good questions DBond

Wingy


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#4413335 - 03/28/18 06:19 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Good info from you and Ice. But surely "Pip management is critical when in combat." is build-dependent? For example, the only reason you'd need to add WEP pips is if your sustained firing is draining the capacitor and causing some black-out where the weapons stop functioning until power is restored. Since WEP pips do not add damage, then the only reason to increase it is to recover it (or prevent the black-out), correct? If you are rocking a build that can fire at 2 pips all day, why would you increase WEP pips?

By increasing WEP pips you are by definition borrowing that power from SYS or ENG or both. So Increasing WEP pips is dropping your shield strength, potentially. Or your speed, and maneuverability, or both. No free lunch.

In a one-adversary engagement, you can get away with this. But if you are in a CZ, or have a wing all shooting at you, you need weapons functioning, speed and maneuverability and high shield strength. By needing to increase WEP pips to finish off your target (because your weapons stopped working) you must choose to sacrifice either maneuverability or shields or both. So active pip management under fire is a pick your poison sort of proposition, no?

I would describe my current in-combat pip-management as reactionary. If my shields are in danger of collapsing, or if I need some speed to catch a target or pull away I will add the appropriate pips. Otherwise I've been trying to maintain that shield/speed/shoot equilibrium.


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#4413339 - 03/28/18 06:33 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Back when I was playing with Voice Attack, I had multiple profiles that I could switch on-the-fly.

Why keep 4 pips on WEP if it's full? Why keep pips on SYS if the enemy isn't shooting at you? Why have pips on ENG if you're on a head-on with the enemy? I miss my VA profiles, I need to do a lot of finger dancing now to manage pips. All pips on WEP when head-on, all pips on ENG after that to help me maneuver. I usually concentrate on dealing damage so I don't mind SYS very much, but I will put pips on SYS and ENG if I am running away. This is just because I'm too lazy to fine-tune the pips. My VA profiles was easier to fine-tune; I could have two on SYS, three on ENG and one on WEP or any variation and it would be quicker than doing it manually.


- Ice
#4413340 - 03/28/18 06:34 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Now you could argue that rocking a build that doesn't need pip management is sub-optimal, and that's a whole different kettle of colored horses.


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#4413426 - 03/29/18 08:37 AM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Quote
I don't think many people are interested in a build full of cargo holds or collector limpets

Au contraire mon frere. I would be interested.

Just realized there's no need for this. I already have a Trading thread where I can write down my boring stuff. biggrin
http://SimHQ.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4410437/trading#Post4410437


- Ice
#4413540 - 03/29/18 06:18 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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[Well as I see it,
Originally Posted by DBond
Good info from you and Ice. But surely "Pip management is critical when in combat." is build-dependent? For example, the only reason you'd need to add WEP pips is if your sustained firing is draining the capacitor and causing some black-out where the weapons stop functioning until power is restored. Since WEP pips do not add damage, then the only reason to increase it is to recover it (or prevent the black-out), correct? If you are rocking a build that can fire at 2 pips all day, why would you increase WEP pips?

By increasing WEP pips you are by definition borrowing that power from SYS or ENG or both. So Increasing WEP pips is dropping your shield strength, potentially. Or your speed, and maneuverability, or both. No free lunch.

In a one-adversary engagement, you can get away with this. But if you are in a CZ, or have a wing all shooting at you, you need weapons functioning, speed and maneuverability and high shield strength. By needing to increase WEP pips to finish off your target (because your weapons stopped working) you must choose to sacrifice either maneuverability or shields or both. So active pip management under fire is a pick your poison sort of proposition, no?

I would describe my current in-combat pip-management as reactionary. If my shields are in danger of collapsing, or if I need some speed to catch a target or pull away I will add the appropriate pips. Otherwise I've been trying to maintain that shield/speed/shoot equilibrium.

When I choose 4/WEP even when I'm going to loose my shields, I'm willing to take the hull damage to finish the target off. Most all my builds have great shields coupled with high hull resistances. Yea I know engineering again! Python can hull tank or shield tank and I think has the best weapon lay out I've used so far. I use 4 MC on top and 1 Beam under. Here I only need 2 pips to WEP to keep all firing. I enjoy the zipyness of the Chieftain though.


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#4413543 - 03/29/18 06:26 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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I have Shield Cell Banks and I always, always have Heat Sinks so meh. Pew-pew and maneuverability is my game for now, then just fire off a SCB and a Heat Sink as needed. I'm debating whether to have another Heat Sink to double up on my available HS.... kinda stupid how it only brings 4 heat sink canisters.


- Ice
#4413553 - 03/29/18 06:56 PM Re: Vulture [Re: DBond]  
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It's all good and I think shows how interpretive the game play can be. For me, I'm not willing to accept any hull damage. Like never. I take it as a personal affront if my hull is damaged, not through my own stupidity mind (that's to be expected. High-G planet I'm looking at you). But I hate taking hull damage through enemy action. That's why I sell all my hull tanks and fly nothing but shield tanks biggrin


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