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#44109 - 03/23/00 12:56 AM A fighter without a gun is....  
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....maybe a good idea or is it a screwy concept that's been tried and disproved before?

Sounded like heresy to me, but I had a discussion with a friend of mine last night / today about the merits of guns in air to air combat. His (legitimate) points are that:

1.) The addition of the gun to an air to air fighter means more weight, more maintenance, more support equipment, more personnel, and more things to break down and supply.

2.) Since Vietnam, there have been several medium-scale air battles fought, and guns kills have been almost nonexistant in that time. The only guns kills in Desert Storm were from Hogs, I believe.

3.) Modern off-boresight missiles, helmet mounted sights, etc. as well as improved close-range missile technology, can and have made a guns fight a much more risky proposition than ever before.

Now, this isn't dealing with air to ground stuff....I think there is a role for guns there, especially in specific platforms like the Su-25 or A-10. But my friend's point is that the days of aircraft slugging it out at guns range and both using guns is probably behind us.

Thoughts? I'd love to hear Andy's take, especially, since he was a pilot from the generation who flew the non-gun fighters into combat. Yes, we tried the no-guns fighters idea before, but not with the technology we have today, nor the solid history of missile kills.

So, what do we think?

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#44110 - 03/23/00 02:12 AM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  
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I believe in the gun..particularly a modern gun system that includes improved projectile ballistics, rapid fire large caliber rounds, and multi-sensor inputs to improve gunsight aiming accuracy in all aspect gun attacks.

Since Vietnam (or more correctly, since Korea), we have not had a conflict that allowed a reasonable assessment of the argument pro and con the gun. The conflicts have been too one-sided and too short. Desert Storm or Kosovo air to air engagements proved little except the supremacy of western training and command/control/surveillance capabilities.

To settle this issue, what is needed is a drawn out slugfest where any technological advantages of one side over the other are minimized. While this will probably not happen, the result, in my opinion, would prove once again the validity of the gun.

Andy

#44111 - 03/23/00 03:18 AM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  

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The one nagging problem with missles is they nearly always have an Rmin....and with proximity detonators, it certainly necessary to have an arming delay.

So IMHO, as long as we can get close enough to "dogfight" they'll need the gun. Now, when missles are "wish'em dead" and we know who everyone is without seeing 'em with the Mark I eyeball....then the gun is dead.

Shotgun

#44112 - 03/23/00 06:47 AM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  

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I wonder what the Israeli Air Force would have to say about this thread? They seem to be the world's leading close-in style dogfighters.

#44113 - 03/23/00 12:35 PM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  
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I'm curious if anyone has a reference to the kills over the Falklands and the Middle East (67, 73 wars, 82 Turkey Shoot). How many were guns kills?

Anyone?



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#44114 - 03/23/00 02:21 PM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  
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#44115 - 03/23/00 02:25 PM Re: A fighter without a gun is....  
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Oh, now THAT is a sweet site.

Thanks Andy!


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Moderated by  Andy Bush, RacerGT 

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