https://seekingalpha.com/article/4137904-bitcoin-melting-get-now

... not that i ever got in in the first place

Surprise surprise. Not! This was indeed the 21st century version of Tulip Fever.

Damn

No cryptocurrencies in my portfolio. I will stick with fads like Facebook and Amazon.

I wouldn't knock it. Q4 reports due soon, plus some unease in the Asian markets.

It's easy to dismiss it but I think crypto is here to stay. I have a modest account invested in Ripple, though at moment it's worth half what I paid for.

I'm keeping my investment and leaving in until end of year.

Ross you might want to do some research and reading about all the manipulation, botting, and just plain dishonest dealing going on.

Rearch has been done showing most of Bitcoins meteoric rise was due to the manipulation by one or two humans, with an army of bots.

Nixer,

Yeah I've read all about that stuff and I think some of it is true, some of it isn't. My personal view of my investment is it involves some good tech about speeding up money transfers and they are starting to make partnerships with well known banking brands. Hey, all investment is a risk and I've not put enough in to cause me financial harm. I was lucky that I bought in when it was peanuts so if it goes then all I've learned is I should stick to my day job!

What a surprise...


Wheels

Cryptocurrencies may have their place, as do many other investment avenues, as a high risk (with the potential of high returns) investment opportunity. As long as one balances their risks properly, there is nothing wrong with placing such a bet. I still own 90k shares in a 'pot stock'. It was a risk that I was willing to take and the total losses, so far, have offset the tax burden on other stock sales that I have made over the past few years.

It is a rare individual that bats a 1000 in the stock market.

Can i finally upgrade my graphic card ? NVIDIA was pumping more cards into the market becouse of this mining, if this fad is out, there will be a surplus and price must go down right ?

Based on current prices, I would say not yet.

Didn't buy TWMJF or APHQF, eh?

Both have fantastic fundamentals.

Nope. They both are looking good though. I made that bed about 7 years ago and the 10k investment hasn't killed me but I am staying away from similar investments for the time being.

On the other hand, as reported on Yahoo Financials as of today:
Invest!


blah, blah, yatta, yatta.

Let's check back at the end of the year to re-evaluate Kay Van-Petersen's predictive powers.

Um, did you guys read the article?? Page 7....



If that does happen, it'll put last year's high of $14K to shame.

True but when your future depends on it, you don't necessarily want to bet on the long odds. I made a lot of money on CAT a few years ago, however I wish I had held it since it is now way above what I sold it at. The stock market is a gamble, at best, and is subject to so many factors that it nearly impossible to make a reliable prediction beyond a year or two. Politics (especially international relations), for one thing, can have a profound effect on the market and that is an area that is virtually impossible to predict beyond the short term.

I make some long bets but I keep a majority of my investments in more secure stocks, bonds and other areas. My annual income is largely tied to the performance of the market and I like to ensure that it will be likely to increase every year. 2018's checks will be about 10% larger than 2017, so I am doing well by being a bit conservative.

In all my years, I don’t think I’ve ever read a sentence that has so much wrong in so few words.

You described the exact opposite of the market over time.

It's not much of a prediction if it needs to be adjusted every time there is a hick up. What he essentially says is "I was wrong yesterday". So what are the odds that he'll be right much, much further in the future? This, of course, goes for every pundit.



It was actually almost $20K, not that it matters.

As cichlidfan wisely observes - lack of volatility is quite often preferable to *potential* growth.

You are correct. The sentence does not represent what I meant.

I was speaking in terms of specific issues (cryptocurrencies, in this case). In general, yes, the market trends do follow a predictable curve. However, that does not promise that a given stock will perform as well as the general trend of the market.

I understand as the gist of what was meant that if somebody is in stocks to chase above-average return, it is important to keep in mind that "The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent".

Indeed!

As an example. Apple is still doing well by any standard. However, a few years ago I sold all of my Apple holdings and reinvested in Amazon and Facebook. My ROI has been vastly superior to what it would have been had I kept my money in Apple. The general trend of the market did not change but the outcome of wise (lucky) investments made a significant, positive, difference in my net worth and annual income.

Sold Apple at about $100. Bought Facebook @ about $60 and Amazon @ about $350.

AMZN at $350. Nice.

Also, I reread my post and I didn’t mean to come off as an ahole. Sorry I wrote it that way.

Not a problem.

Btw, Activision/Blizzard was another wise investment. It took longer to bear fruit but if you bought it eight years ago at $11...;)

There is some bias here. A good friend of mine, a retired U.S. Army CSM, is the uncle of the CEO of Sledgehammer Games. I wouldn't call it insider info, but it is nice to know what the man is thinking.

Not going to argue about investments here because this is way above my head.... was just commenting on the thread title and the article title as being click-bait. 6 pages of doom and apocalypse only to say at the end that BitCoin will be much more valuable in the future and that he predicts/targets BitCoin hitting $40K this year when it hit $14K/$20K last December.

Yeah, BTC is melting.... get out now.....

I have $100 that says that BTC will not hit that number in 2018. The number of relatively newly 'minted' cryptocurrencies are going to take a big bite out of the BTC market. BTC mining is just barely profitable and that is only if you have a warehouse full of ASIC hardware.

Of course, I could be wrong.

Again, I can't really argue either way as I've not really researched BTC.... I am, however, kicking myself as I looked into BTC in 2014 and was positively amused at BitCoin's price of $300-400 per coin at the time. I also looked into mining with my 6970 or 7970 GPU I had at the time and IIRC, it wasn't worth the effort.

Would be nice to hear from people here who actually have a stake in crypto currencies.... there was another thread here about this as well and there were people like Longbow (IIRC?) who thought crypto was the future. Whether it will hit $14K/$20K again or not this year or next year, it'll be fun to watch but either way, BitCoin isn't melting and the article writer himself isn't getting out now.... at least according to the article

for all the experts, the price has risen back to nearly where it was before the crash

with bitcoin you need to get used to the fact that it drops hard and recovers hard, and it does both often, and the time it takes to crash or recover can be a matter of hours or minutes.

China is likely to launch many more cyber attacks against Bitcoin sales sites in an effort to bring it to the edge of the cliff and they might succeed as other governments are unlikely to step in to help

Bitcoin is fiat money just like all current government issued currency but the big difference is that you can't fund massive debt with Bitcoin because Bitcoin by its very nature has to remain rare and limited in its circulation.

I made $5000 in 2017 by selling my copper shares and can at any time in 2018 sell again for another $5000 profit. $10,000 gain (capital gains taxes must be taken into account of course) without nearly the risk of Bitcoin. Copper in 2017 was up over 30%.

Not sure what infrastructure is built from Bitcoins but copper wiring is still the preferred choice

invest in nvidia and AMD then ? one is good for bitcoin the other prefered for etherium (what a stupid name, should be called unonbitenium)

I thought about AMD and Nvidia but both are a little above my risk toleration so some years ago i bought Apple for $99.00/share

A bit funny, to me, since I sold Apple @ $100 (bought long before the 7:1 split) and purchased Amazon and Facebook with the proceeds, both of which are now worth triple, or more, than I paid.

Good on you cichlidfan. Amazon certainly would of made me money but as to Facebook i will never like social media and would rather not ever invest in it directly. I know funds also have social media companies but at least I'm not buying the fund because it has Facebook listed as one of the companies. What I'm buying now are funds and some companies to create an income stream in retirement. I've accumulated all i need now it's time to organize it for the retirement years. Best wishes to you cichlidfan in your investments

Closed end funds are awesome income vehicles for retirement, provided you trade the discounts and premiums and mind the swings.

I’m in a similar position about retirement finances. My goal is 18 months more of wealth creation and then , along with being at full Social Security, I will shift to wealth preservation.


I don’t really understand Bitcoin and won’t invest in something I don’t understand.

Working toward a wealth preservation plan is the best thing for all of us in that certain age group. I still have a 'wealth creation' account but it is more of a hobby at this point. I will be sixty at the end of the year and my wealth preservation plan is the most important. So far it is working well but I also maintain a solid cash reserve for emergencies. The market would have to crash hard to hurt me, at this point, but it could still happen so I try to keep a few extra eggs in another basket, as it were.

Thanks for the kind words. I am not a great fan of social media and I used to despise what facebook had become. However, a good investment is just that.

My retirement income is tied to a completely separate account and is managed by a close family friend, who also happens to be a Merrill Lynch VP.

Funny you mention them because i've been looking into a few of those as a possibility

They're great, but out of 600 or so, only 20 or 30 are worth investing in, so it is a pretty small space.

www.cefconnect.com is a fantastic tool to research them. I trade in and out of them all the time.

thanks for that link Blastman - i was thinking of buying into ETY & RQI and/or FTF or DNP

ETY is cool but the discount is narrow atm, plus it has been on a tear, so rich. Check out CII sometime. Neat fund, despite being covered-calls, this one has done quite well and is an exception to the space.
I own DNP, but it is getting clobbered with utilities right now. UTG is a nice alternate and so is HTD--if and when it inflects... is in free-fall currently.

I don't own much in the REIT fund space or bond fund space. Most debt I buy is on preferred IPOs or the preferred secondary market, some debentures and laddered CDs for excessive cash pools--rates have been rising very nicely in the CD space, but I still try not to go further than a year or two out for maturity.

Of possible interest:

Government to auction off $50 million in Bitcoins

thanks Blastman ill check those out .... appreciate your post

Looks like BitCoin maxxed out at around £12.5K over the last month or around £10.2K over the last week. Dipped down to £6.8K and everyone panicked on the way down, but today, it's back up going from £8.2K to £9.2K...

Get out now, huh?

yes get out while you can before the Bitcoin bubble of epic proportions explodes with portfolio crushing force

Why exactly is it a bubble?

Also, according to this site, BitCoin hit a max of just above $20K in 17 December and currently sits at around $12.6K today after dipping to as low as $9.4K on the 17th of January. Please tell me if my math is wrong but with $20K as the baseline, $12K is 63% and $9.4K is 47%. Losing 53% over a month and gaining back 17% over 3-4 days.... if it was going to pop, shouldn't it be going down-down-down?

it's really anyone's guess just like the rest of the market i suppose .... if it is an asset (bitcoin) bubble and it is falling i don't think there's any set rule on how fast it could fall ...could take some time to hit bottom. Anything that has gone up as fast as Bitcoin has and with questionable support could easily fit the definition of being in a "bubble". Crazy euphoria driving up the price to questionable values - be careful out there !

Thanks, but I'm just curious about this since you brought it up.... not really invested in it. Again, I just go back to your original article where the writer spends 6 pages for doom-and-gloom but then on the last page, announces that he's hopeful and he's holding onto his bitcoin. Clickbait.

The fall of BitConnect, however.... that was interesting I've been getting a few BitConnect adverts at the start of some of the YouTube videos I watched and it was weird watching the whole thing go down. I guess I've always been slightly fascinated by the MLM/pyramid/ponzi scheme as my parents were at one point into some product like HerbaLife (can't remember the real name) and one of my friends is invested in selling homes and high-rise condominium units back home with a little MLM scheme attached to the selling...

Bitcoin is what I classify on the stock market as a "casino stock." There's no rational rhyme or reason why it may go up or down, as there is zero basis in the fundamentals to rationally support current levels or future appreciation. You're rolling dice with bitcoin, and when you're rolling dice, you aren't investing, you're gambling.

I don't think I have ever heard anyone explain it better!!!

isnt warning like this, get out now, sell sell sell, what causes it to drop ? this is a faith system......if people keep their faith on the system it will not go down. this is the perfect money laundry system, the only think that will cause it to blow its governament regulations.
but i'm completely ignorant on the matter, so this is just my opinion.

Two reasons:
1. Blockchain
2. First on the scene

I think if you don't see rhyme or reason behind BitCoin or crypto currencies, that's because you've not looked into it properly. At least that's what the experts/proponents say I will admit that maybe the recent spike over valued BitCoin, by how much, I don't know. But to say there is no value in it, I dunno..... a bank in Japan is getting in on the action. Source South Korea is planning to control it's market or something and China was cracking down on mining farms IIRC (I've not looked into this very much). If there is no value, why all this fuss?

American laws have even changed and now, crypto exchanges counts as taxable income where before, it was only when you converted crypto into USD. If there is no value, why is the US government wanting a slice of the pie?

Blanket statements like Mr_Blastman's statement above is just misleading. There are some weak coins and outright scams in crypto currencies, but to say investing in crypto is akin to gambling is exactly like saying investing in stocks with zero knowledge of what you're investing in, how, and which ones to invest in is gambling.



Have a read of the linked article, Blade, and pay attention to the last page The author titles it "get out now" and then ends with "I still have faith in the system and I'm holding onto my crypto. In fact, I think BitCoin will be bigger in 2018 than it has in 2017".... I'm paraphrasing, of course.

I can't believe otherwise bright people are putting their money into and/or, defending this SCAM that would have made Charles Ponzi and Bernie Maidoff proud.

It's already pretty much proven that most of it's meteoric rise was due to manipulation and bots...you know FAKE demand. I love the "faith" angle.

Sorry, but the only faith I have in digital anything is that it can and will be hacked, most often for someones illicit benefit.

I think you are missing the point of what I said. If it is not a gamble or an investment then it must be a currency, and to be a useful currency, then it must possess stability of value of which and economy can be built around. Investments are something you purchase with intrinsic, measurable value that can be quantified with a variety of factors to support the basis of the investment(the context of basis I just used is not what is traditionally understood in common nomenclature. I am referring to basis from a financial context--i.e. cost basis or net asset value, or as some analysts put it, fair value). If these do not exist beyond: "Well people want it and it is popular so it is going up," and for that reason alone, yet the price fluctuates wildly, then it is gambling. Gambling is rolling dice, drawing cards, spinning a wheel or pulling a lever with no guarantee of any reward beyond a set of odds. With bitcoin... there aren't even any measurable odds. You buy it... and see what happens. With poker, slots, craps, blackjack, roulette, etc., there are at least quantifiable odds. With bitcoin... who the hell knows? We know there's an upper maximum limit to available bits(because it is not a material good, but a digital one that exists in the magical electron aether--provided a solar flare or EMP doesn't scramble it away), but we also know that it is easy to fork and create competing currencies, of which there is no limit to. So... following that logic, bitcoin is worse than a gamble--it's pure chance and value depends solely on popularity.

I'm an investor. When I pick a stock, I always know my odds and base them firmly on fundamental factors so I can quantify my outcome and justify it based on hard facts. Bitcoin is not an investment. Not right now. And suggesting to anyone that it is, is beyond irresponsible. One might suggest you hand your cash to a bum on a street who professes to have studied under Warren Buffett, and despite his disheveled, ragged appearance, actually lives in a secret batcave beneath the manhole in the center of twenty-fifth and main, tapped directly into the exchange and bolstered by aerial microwave relays to the distant commodity markets, too.

Value exists in Bitcoin for as long as people want it. There is no true established economy beyond this demand. Until I can pay my power bill, deposit it into the bank, earn interest, order takeout, gift it to my nephew in a christmas card, buy some stocks, pay a kid down the block to cut my grass or wash my dog with it, I don't view it as a currency.

I know this hurts. I realize it is painful. I know there are so many folks who want to /believe/ it is a currency. But believing something is so doesn't simply make it so in the tangible realm--you need evidence and substance to back it up.

Until then, bitcoin is a gamble.



p.s. One more thought: If we could transmute lead into gold with incredible ease, would natural gold still hold as much value?

Nixer, they all want a magic bullet instead of delayed gratification.

I agree with your points!!!

it would, just like fake diamonds do not have the same value as diamonds, plus stock and demand control. Nothing would change,if you could transmutate copper into gold, now that would bring the system down.

BitConnect was clearly a scam..... but I'm getting a feeling you're referring not only to BitConnect but to crypto currency in general?



I think I missed a bit And you are correct and wrong at the same time. I think BitCoin was originally meant to be a currency but with issues with tech, it's difficult getting it as such. There are other crypto currencies such as Ripple that's built geared more towards this, I guess learning from BitCoin's lessons? From what I understand, this is also the goal of the Japanese bank and it's eventual crypto currency as linked in the article above. Heck, it even states that they're trying to push this into mainstream! So yes, you are correct, BitCoin and most cryto currencies are not yet currencies per se, but you are also wrong because this is their goal, they're just trying to see how to best implement it.

At least that's from what I understand. This thread is making me read more and more into this and it's quite interesting I was originally just interested in the BitConnect drama but I think I've read/watched all I can with that topic



Like I said, people are arguing about BitCoin whether it's a currency or an investment. However, it's value is more than just "people want it." As for price fluctuating wildly, it's new, a lot of the value is on potential and speculation, hence the big spikes and dips. At least that's how I understand it. I'd love to be shown if I'm wrong here.



I get a feeling that you're using the term BitCoin to refer to BitCoin specifically in some instances and to refer to crypto currency in generall in other instances. Investing in BitCoin and a few big crypto currencies is a risk, yes... a gamble, maybe not so much. I would say it's a gamble if you were to print out every coin available, assign them a number, then hold a lottery of which coin you're going to buy ---- THAT is a gamble as you're buying just based on what numbers you pull out of the lottery. Investing is when you find out what certain crypto currencies bring to the table and then buy into or invest in those you think have promise. I'm only scratching the surface here, but I'm sure things like Ripple and Etherium have value in them compared to other crypto currencies like Putin Coin and Trump Coin. And no, I didn't make those last two coins up. I wish I did just to be funny, but they do exist.



I'm not an investor... at least, not as serious as you guys here are, so I can't say which ones are good for investment or not. But from what I've read, the idea here is to think of crypto currencies as getting in the ground floor of something new. Quite a few of them may go bust, but a select few may turn out to be Amazon or Facebook or Apple.... some of them may turn out to be Nokia Whether the risk is worth an investment is dependent on each investor's risk tolerance and if someone did buy into cryto currency based on someone's suggestion, THAT is irresponsible.... but that logic holds the same whether it is crypto currency, stocks, bonds, or any other form of investment, right?



This is where I think you are wrong. Like I said, it has value other than just the demand for it. The tech that allows BitCoin to exist, that allows miners to exist, that allows other coins to exist, that has value. The blockchain. While you cannot pay your power bill with crypto currency (yet?), you can definitely convert it into USD or GBP and use that. Some companies do accept BitCoin or other crypto currencies. While general mainstream acceptance has yet to be implemented, this does not diminish the value at all. Can you pay your power bill with your stocks? Can you pay your takeout, pay your gardener or dog groomer with stocks? No. Same as crypto currency. But that does not mean stocks are of no value.



I have shown you proof of how it has value outside of faith and belief Disclaimer -- I'm only taking the pro-crypto side out of interest. Like I said, I have nothing invested in it and all I am saying here is based on my reading/research over the past few days, but I am loving the learning and reading I am getting out of this.



Yeah, I read someone trying to make this argument. Crypto currency has no value compared to gold or fiat currency..... but then who decided gold was to be valuable? Fiat currency is only valuable based on the government's insistence that it is so. What if someone in history decided to trade in mud cakes instead of gold? Would we be holding stores of mud cakes now? As far as usefulness, is gold more useful than other metals such as copper?

For fiat, what if someone suddenly decided that the USD had no value and the US government would no longer back it and instead would issue Trump Dollars and back that? All of a sudden, the dollar notes you have would have no value because the government is now backing Trump Dollars. What if someone suddenly decided that the Trump Dollar would also be as valued as Trump Coin and both would have government backing?

I don't think the blockchain is going away, but my point is simply this: Anyone who "invests" in bitcoin is a fool. Anyone who "gambles" in bitcoin--well, at least they are smart enough to realize it isn't an investment and they might lose everything. Crypto is too easy to create. Might as well be trading hats in Team Fortress 2.

Oh, and you wouldn't pay your dog groomer with stocks because... they're an investment, not a currency. =) But you'd gift shares to your kids.

I see your point but I am curious WHY you say this is so. Some people say crypto currency and especially BitCoin can be an investment.... it certainly looks more like it than a currency!

You are correct though.... crypto is easy to create. Creating a GOOD crypto that will actually be valuable, that's a different matter entirely and that's where the difference between investments and gambling lies. I can print out Trump Dollars from my PC and printer, that is easy. Making Trump Dollars valuable, that's a different story

As for the stocks example, I was simply talking about ease-of-use and value, not currency/stock/investment.

Not Bitcoin, but about another crypto-currency.

ACWA Power Adopts Blockchain Currency SolarCoin
(See the online article for embedded links)



I don't know all the details of how it works, etc.. The "currency with a purpose" twist is interesting. Anybody in here that has solar PV panels operating might want to look into it.

Hey, Haggart. I dissagree with you completely. in my personal opinion, bitcoin is the most reliable thing and you are able to make a huge profit from it, but unfortunately, other people might track you if you will be making transaction, that's a disadvantage but where are a lot of bitcoin mixers on the Internet, this is special sites, which will hide your informations from the others. I found a suitable variant on the Internet, for me this is (Link deleted. See below) the best bitcoin crypto mixer[/url] the best bitcoin crypto mixer. I've been using it for 2 weeks and I didn't have any issues with this mixer, it's simple to use so everyone will understand how to use it.

I’m thinking this is a bot. I deleted the link. If the poster wishes he can PM me about reinstating it,

LOL

Necroman is back.

Seems like another Bot. I’ll be watching

Point of information:



This was answered rather early in the nation's history, when it was decided that individual bank issued money was a really bad thing to have run an economy, and that the US Dollar should be our currency.

Everyone balked at the idea, as the USA at that point had very little gold and silver to back it's dollar (this was that long ago).

Then the government said that it would only accept USD for the purposes of collecting taxes. Sure, there was an exemption for Spanish pieces of eight for awhile, but it was US Federal Dollars for taxes. People could use chicken beaks or bitcoins or scraps of bark to pay each other, but Uncle Sam would only take greenbacks.

As a kicker, they made it to where even if one preferred scraps of bark for payment, businesses HAD to take US Dollars (which is why there's that verbiage on every currency bill) as well as chicken beaks.

Soon enough, people got the message from the government after a few tax foreclosures and some people winding up in jail for failure to pay taxes, and the demand to be paid in USD became universal in the country.

We don't really have a fiat currency. No, one can't get gold from the government for a bill, but the government can damned sure take your stuff if you don't have US Dollars. It's all stick, baby, and damned little carrot.

Now we have bots resurrecting ancient threads in addition to people posting inane questions on SimHQ. The world is indeed turned upside down.

Hi! Reading this thread, I understand that you are apparently not a particularly competent person in the field of investment, and in particular cryptocurrency. As a person who has worked for 5 years in the field of stock trading, more specifically in forex, I was very surprised when I switched to cryptocurrency trading. For we have some reasons to buy bitcoin. For example:
1. Investors are increasing their investments in cryptocurrency and especially bitcoin every day.
2. No one can abolish or ban bitcoin. For any electronic restrictions can be easily bypassed.
I hope that I helped you to understand at least a little bit. Good luck!

Send me a PM. Failure to do so will result in you being banned from the site.

Please crash, and hard. I'd like a new graphics card.

I think cryptocurrency is the 21st century version of the "Tulip Craze" from the 17th century.

We are in complete agreement.

(for once )

Why hasn't this poster been banned yet? I noticed that the post has been reported already. My apologies if the moderators are already on it.

Yep. stealth edited a spam link in.

Just making sure this comment was seen. Giving you a chance.

They must be keyed into the mention of crypto... How strange

Crypto-currency is the current "fool's gold" fad where easily manipulated people try to get rich quick so I am not surprised at all that spammers are all over it. PT Barnum was absolutely correct.

Before investing money anywhere, you need to carefully analyze the investment object. Investing in cryptocurrency is a dangerous idea, but thanks to this, you can make good money. I have been trading for more than 5 years, and I have spent a lot of time studying; moreover, I am still learning new things. I recently started using the Spam link deleted because it's a very useful tool for every trader. To earn more, you need to use the best tools.

Thank you! I'm in the middle of selling my house and am going to invest the proceeds in crypto. Now I know where to get advice.
HODL! Buy the dip! To the moon! Lambo land!

Do you need to wear a business suit to be a metatrader?

I'm going to take the advice of this first time poster and invest all the money i have been promised to receive (with just a small admin charge) by a Nigerian Prince, Yasser Arrafat's widow, and the 25 US marines who claimed to be the first one in Saddam's hidey-hole who found all the gold there. Taken a while though, but I'm patient.