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#4400871 - 01/19/18 05:26 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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thanks for that link Blastman - i was thinking of buying into ETY & RQI and/or FTF or DNP


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#4400911 - 01/19/18 03:24 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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ETY is cool but the discount is narrow atm, plus it has been on a tear, so rich. Check out CII sometime. Neat fund, despite being covered-calls, this one has done quite well and is an exception to the space.
I own DNP, but it is getting clobbered with utilities right now. UTG is a nice alternate and so is HTD--if and when it inflects... is in free-fall currently.

I don't own much in the REIT fund space or bond fund space. Most debt I buy is on preferred IPOs or the preferred secondary market, some debentures and laddered CDs for excessive cash pools--rates have been rising very nicely in the CD space, but I still try not to go further than a year or two out for maturity.

#4400936 - 01/19/18 05:54 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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#4400984 - 01/19/18 08:55 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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thanks Blastman ill check those out .... appreciate your post


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4401133 - 01/20/18 11:21 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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Looks like BitCoin maxxed out at around £12.5K over the last month or around £10.2K over the last week. Dipped down to £6.8K and everyone panicked on the way down, but today, it's back up going from £8.2K to £9.2K...

Get out now, huh?


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#4401144 - 01/21/18 01:20 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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yes get out while you can before the Bitcoin bubble of epic proportions explodes with portfolio crushing force

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"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4401149 - 01/21/18 02:17 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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Why exactly is it a bubble?

Also, according to this site, BitCoin hit a max of just above $20K in 17 December and currently sits at around $12.6K today after dipping to as low as $9.4K on the 17th of January. Please tell me if my math is wrong but with $20K as the baseline, $12K is 63% and $9.4K is 47%. Losing 53% over a month and gaining back 17% over 3-4 days.... if it was going to pop, shouldn't it be going down-down-down?


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#4401153 - 01/21/18 02:31 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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it's really anyone's guess just like the rest of the market i suppose .... if it is an asset (bitcoin) bubble and it is falling i don't think there's any set rule on how fast it could fall ...could take some time to hit bottom. Anything that has gone up as fast as Bitcoin has and with questionable support could easily fit the definition of being in a "bubble". Crazy euphoria driving up the price to questionable values - be careful out there !


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4401159 - 01/21/18 03:28 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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smile Thanks, but I'm just curious about this since you brought it up.... not really invested in it. Again, I just go back to your original article where the writer spends 6 pages for doom-and-gloom but then on the last page, announces that he's hopeful and he's holding onto his bitcoin. Clickbait.

The fall of BitConnect, however.... that was interesting smile I've been getting a few BitConnect adverts at the start of some of the YouTube videos I watched and it was weird watching the whole thing go down. I guess I've always been slightly fascinated by the MLM/pyramid/ponzi scheme as my parents were at one point into some product like HerbaLife (can't remember the real name) and one of my friends is invested in selling homes and high-rise condominium units back home with a little MLM scheme attached to the selling...


- Ice
#4401164 - 01/21/18 05:11 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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Bitcoin is what I classify on the stock market as a "casino stock." There's no rational rhyme or reason why it may go up or down, as there is zero basis in the fundamentals to rationally support current levels or future appreciation. You're rolling dice with bitcoin, and when you're rolling dice, you aren't investing, you're gambling.

#4401169 - 01/21/18 05:55 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Bitcoin is what I classify on the stock market as a "casino stock." There's no rational rhyme or reason why it may go up or down, as there is zero basis in the fundamentals to rationally support current levels or future appreciation. You're rolling dice with bitcoin, and when you're rolling dice, you aren't investing, you're gambling.


I don't think I have ever heard anyone explain it better!!!


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#4401170 - 01/21/18 06:29 AM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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Originally Posted by Haggart
it's really anyone's guess just like the rest of the market i suppose .... if it is an asset (bitcoin) bubble and it is falling i don't think there's any set rule on how fast it could fall ...could take some time to hit bottom. Anything that has gone up as fast as Bitcoin has and with questionable support could easily fit the definition of being in a "bubble". Crazy euphoria driving up the price to questionable values - be careful out there !


isnt warning like this, get out now, sell sell sell, what causes it to drop ? this is a faith system......if people keep their faith on the system it will not go down. this is the perfect money laundry system, the only think that will cause it to blow its governament regulations.
but i'm completely ignorant on the matter, so this is just my opinion.

#4401188 - 01/21/18 01:26 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Blade_RJ]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Bitcoin is what I classify on the stock market as a "casino stock." There's no rational rhyme or reason why it may go up or down, as there is zero basis in the fundamentals to rationally support current levels or future appreciation. You're rolling dice with bitcoin, and when you're rolling dice, you aren't investing, you're gambling.


Two reasons:
1. Blockchain
2. First on the scene

I think if you don't see rhyme or reason behind BitCoin or crypto currencies, that's because you've not looked into it properly. At least that's what the experts/proponents say smile I will admit that maybe the recent spike over valued BitCoin, by how much, I don't know. But to say there is no value in it, I dunno..... a bank in Japan is getting in on the action. Source South Korea is planning to control it's market or something and China was cracking down on mining farms IIRC (I've not looked into this very much). If there is no value, why all this fuss?

American laws have even changed and now, crypto exchanges counts as taxable income where before, it was only when you converted crypto into USD. If there is no value, why is the US government wanting a slice of the pie?

Blanket statements like Mr_Blastman's statement above is just misleading. There are some weak coins and outright scams in crypto currencies, but to say investing in crypto is akin to gambling is exactly like saying investing in stocks with zero knowledge of what you're investing in, how, and which ones to invest in is gambling.


Originally Posted by Blade_RJ
isnt warning like this, get out now, sell sell sell, what causes it to drop ? this is a faith system......if people keep their faith on the system it will not go down. this is the perfect money laundry system, the only think that will cause it to blow its governament regulations.
but i'm completely ignorant on the matter, so this is just my opinion.

Have a read of the linked article, Blade, and pay attention to the last page smile The author titles it "get out now" and then ends with "I still have faith in the system and I'm holding onto my crypto. In fact, I think BitCoin will be bigger in 2018 than it has in 2017".... I'm paraphrasing, of course.


- Ice
#4401190 - 01/21/18 01:42 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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I can't believe otherwise bright people are putting their money into and/or, defending this SCAM that would have made Charles Ponzi and Bernie Maidoff proud.

It's already pretty much proven that most of it's meteoric rise was due to manipulation and bots...you know FAKE demand. I love the "faith" angle.

Sorry, but the only faith I have in digital anything is that it can and will be hacked, most often for someones illicit benefit.


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#4401203 - 01/21/18 03:05 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice

American laws have even changed and now, crypto exchanges counts as taxable income where before, it was only when you converted crypto into USD. If there is no value, why is the US government wanting a slice of the pie?

Blanket statements like Mr_Blastman's statement above is just misleading. There are some weak coins and outright scams in crypto currencies, but to say investing in crypto is akin to gambling is exactly like saying investing in stocks with zero knowledge of what you're investing in, how, and which ones to invest in is gambling.


I think you are missing the point of what I said. If it is not a gamble or an investment then it must be a currency, and to be a useful currency, then it must possess stability of value of which and economy can be built around. Investments are something you purchase with intrinsic, measurable value that can be quantified with a variety of factors to support the basis of the investment(the context of basis I just used is not what is traditionally understood in common nomenclature. I am referring to basis from a financial context--i.e. cost basis or net asset value, or as some analysts put it, fair value). If these do not exist beyond: "Well people want it and it is popular so it is going up," and for that reason alone, yet the price fluctuates wildly, then it is gambling. Gambling is rolling dice, drawing cards, spinning a wheel or pulling a lever with no guarantee of any reward beyond a set of odds. With bitcoin... there aren't even any measurable odds. You buy it... and see what happens. With poker, slots, craps, blackjack, roulette, etc., there are at least quantifiable odds. With bitcoin... who the hell knows? We know there's an upper maximum limit to available bits(because it is not a material good, but a digital one that exists in the magical electron aether--provided a solar flare or EMP doesn't scramble it away), but we also know that it is easy to fork and create competing currencies, of which there is no limit to. So... following that logic, bitcoin is worse than a gamble--it's pure chance and value depends solely on popularity.

I'm an investor. When I pick a stock, I always know my odds and base them firmly on fundamental factors so I can quantify my outcome and justify it based on hard facts. Bitcoin is not an investment. Not right now. And suggesting to anyone that it is, is beyond irresponsible. One might suggest you hand your cash to a bum on a street who professes to have studied under Warren Buffett, and despite his disheveled, ragged appearance, actually lives in a secret batcave beneath the manhole in the center of twenty-fifth and main, tapped directly into the exchange and bolstered by aerial microwave relays to the distant commodity markets, too.

Value exists in Bitcoin for as long as people want it. There is no true established economy beyond this demand. Until I can pay my power bill, deposit it into the bank, earn interest, order takeout, gift it to my nephew in a christmas card, buy some stocks, pay a kid down the block to cut my grass or wash my dog with it, I don't view it as a currency.

I know this hurts. I realize it is painful. I know there are so many folks who want to /believe/ it is a currency. But believing something is so doesn't simply make it so in the tangible realm--you need evidence and substance to back it up.

Until then, bitcoin is a gamble.



p.s. One more thought: If we could transmute lead into gold with incredible ease, would natural gold still hold as much value?

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#4401205 - 01/21/18 03:12 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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Nixer, they all want a magic bullet instead of delayed gratification.

I agree with your points!!!


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#4401212 - 01/21/18 03:31 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman




p.s. One more thought: If we could transmute lead into gold with incredible ease, would natural gold still hold as much value?


it would, just like fake diamonds do not have the same value as diamonds, plus stock and demand control. Nothing would change,if you could transmutate copper into gold, now that would bring the system down.

#4401222 - 01/21/18 04:23 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer
I can't believe otherwise bright people are putting their money into and/or, defending this SCAM that would have made Charles Ponzi and Bernie Maidoff proud.

BitConnect was clearly a scam..... but I'm getting a feeling you're referring not only to BitConnect but to crypto currency in general?


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
I think you are missing the point of what I said. If it is not a gamble or an investment then it must be a currency, and to be a useful currency, then it must possess stability of value of which and economy can be built around.

I think I missed a bit smile And you are correct and wrong at the same time. I think BitCoin was originally meant to be a currency but with issues with tech, it's difficult getting it as such. There are other crypto currencies such as Ripple that's built geared more towards this, I guess learning from BitCoin's lessons? From what I understand, this is also the goal of the Japanese bank and it's eventual crypto currency as linked in the article above. Heck, it even states that they're trying to push this into mainstream! So yes, you are correct, BitCoin and most cryto currencies are not yet currencies per se, but you are also wrong because this is their goal, they're just trying to see how to best implement it.

At least that's from what I understand. This thread is making me read more and more into this and it's quite interesting smile I was originally just interested in the BitConnect drama but I think I've read/watched all I can with that topic biggrin


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Investments are something you purchase with intrinsic, measurable value that can be quantified with a variety of factors to support the basis of the investment(the context of basis I just used is not what is traditionally understood in common nomenclature. I am referring to basis from a financial context--i.e. cost basis or net asset value, or as some analysts put it, fair value). If these do not exist beyond: "Well people want it and it is popular so it is going up," and for that reason alone, yet the price fluctuates wildly, then it is gambling.

Like I said, people are arguing about BitCoin whether it's a currency or an investment. However, it's value is more than just "people want it." As for price fluctuating wildly, it's new, a lot of the value is on potential and speculation, hence the big spikes and dips. At least that's how I understand it. I'd love to be shown if I'm wrong here.


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Gambling is rolling dice, drawing cards, spinning a wheel or pulling a lever with no guarantee of any reward beyond a set of odds. With bitcoin... there aren't even any measurable odds. You buy it... and see what happens. With poker, slots, craps, blackjack, roulette, etc., there are at least quantifiable odds. With bitcoin... who the hell knows? We know there's an upper maximum limit to available bits(because it is not a material good, but a digital one that exists in the magical electron aether--provided a solar flare or EMP doesn't scramble it away), but we also know that it is easy to fork and create competing currencies, of which there is no limit to. So... following that logic, bitcoin is worse than a gamble--it's pure chance and value depends solely on popularity.

I get a feeling that you're using the term BitCoin to refer to BitCoin specifically in some instances and to refer to crypto currency in generall in other instances. Investing in BitCoin and a few big crypto currencies is a risk, yes... a gamble, maybe not so much. I would say it's a gamble if you were to print out every coin available, assign them a number, then hold a lottery of which coin you're going to buy ---- THAT is a gamble as you're buying just based on what numbers you pull out of the lottery. Investing is when you find out what certain crypto currencies bring to the table and then buy into or invest in those you think have promise. I'm only scratching the surface here, but I'm sure things like Ripple and Etherium have value in them compared to other crypto currencies like Putin Coin and Trump Coin. And no, I didn't make those last two coins up. I wish I did just to be funny, but they do exist. biggrin


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
I'm an investor. When I pick a stock, I always know my odds and base them firmly on fundamental factors so I can quantify my outcome and justify it based on hard facts. Bitcoin is not an investment. Not right now. And suggesting to anyone that it is, is beyond irresponsible.

I'm not an investor... at least, not as serious as you guys here are, so I can't say which ones are good for investment or not. But from what I've read, the idea here is to think of crypto currencies as getting in the ground floor of something new. Quite a few of them may go bust, but a select few may turn out to be Amazon or Facebook or Apple.... some of them may turn out to be Nokia frown Whether the risk is worth an investment is dependent on each investor's risk tolerance and if someone did buy into cryto currency based on someone's suggestion, THAT is irresponsible.... but that logic holds the same whether it is crypto currency, stocks, bonds, or any other form of investment, right?


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Value exists in Bitcoin for as long as people want it. There is no true established economy beyond this demand. Until I can pay my power bill, deposit it into the bank, earn interest, order takeout, gift it to my nephew in a christmas card, buy some stocks, pay a kid down the block to cut my grass or wash my dog with it, I don't view it as a currency.

This is where I think you are wrong. Like I said, it has value other than just the demand for it. The tech that allows BitCoin to exist, that allows miners to exist, that allows other coins to exist, that has value. The blockchain. While you cannot pay your power bill with crypto currency (yet?), you can definitely convert it into USD or GBP and use that. Some companies do accept BitCoin or other crypto currencies. While general mainstream acceptance has yet to be implemented, this does not diminish the value at all. Can you pay your power bill with your stocks? Can you pay your takeout, pay your gardener or dog groomer with stocks? No. Same as crypto currency. But that does not mean stocks are of no value.


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
I know this hurts. I realize it is painful. I know there are so many folks who want to /believe/ it is a currency. But believing something is so doesn't simply make it so in the tangible realm--you need evidence and substance to back it up.

I have shown you proof of how it has value outside of faith and belief smile Disclaimer -- I'm only taking the pro-crypto side out of interest. Like I said, I have nothing invested in it and all I am saying here is based on my reading/research over the past few days, but I am loving the learning and reading I am getting out of this.


Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
p.s. One more thought: If we could transmute lead into gold with incredible ease, would natural gold still hold as much value?

Yeah, I read someone trying to make this argument. Crypto currency has no value compared to gold or fiat currency..... but then who decided gold was to be valuable? Fiat currency is only valuable based on the government's insistence that it is so. What if someone in history decided to trade in mud cakes instead of gold? Would we be holding stores of mud cakes now? As far as usefulness, is gold more useful than other metals such as copper?

For fiat, what if someone suddenly decided that the USD had no value and the US government would no longer back it and instead would issue Trump Dollars and back that? All of a sudden, the dollar notes you have would have no value because the government is now backing Trump Dollars. What if someone suddenly decided that the Trump Dollar would also be as valued as Trump Coin and both would have government backing?


- Ice
#4401237 - 01/21/18 06:20 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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I don't think the blockchain is going away, but my point is simply this: Anyone who "invests" in bitcoin is a fool. Anyone who "gambles" in bitcoin--well, at least they are smart enough to realize it isn't an investment and they might lose everything. Crypto is too easy to create. Might as well be trading hats in Team Fortress 2.

Oh, and you wouldn't pay your dog groomer with stocks because... they're an investment, not a currency. =) But you'd gift shares to your kids.

#4401241 - 01/21/18 07:09 PM Re: Bitcoin is Melting Get Out Now [Re: Haggart]  
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I see your point but I am curious WHY you say this is so. Some people say crypto currency and especially BitCoin can be an investment.... it certainly looks more like it than a currency! smile

You are correct though.... crypto is easy to create. Creating a GOOD crypto that will actually be valuable, that's a different matter entirely and that's where the difference between investments and gambling lies. I can print out Trump Dollars from my PC and printer, that is easy. Making Trump Dollars valuable, that's a different story biggrin biggrin biggrin

As for the stocks example, I was simply talking about ease-of-use and value, not currency/stock/investment.


- Ice
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