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#4392420 - 12/01/17 04:07 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Infinite - just keep using the Starforce sytem we have now it just works fine


LOL. Anybody remember the Mig-21? Aren't you being a bit liberal with the truth here just to bang your own drum?


With respect, the Mig-21 issues were purely due to the fact that Cobra and his team felt that they knew better than ED on how to implement Starforce. Quite obviously, they were incorrect.


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#4392422 - 12/01/17 04:14 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Infinite - just keep using the Starforce sytem we have now it just works fine


LOL. Anybody remember the Mig-21? Aren't you being a bit liberal with the truth here just to bang your own drum?


So one 3rd party could not at the start sort out how to do their licensing correctly ?

I admit that the MIG-21 guys made a balls up of how they configured the starforce for their aircraft .. it took them a while
but it is pretty much sorted out now - least it was 2 weeks ago when I had to re-activate it with a hardware change



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4392425 - 12/01/17 04:21 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Originally Posted by Sobek
Originally Posted by leaf_on_the_wind
Infinite - just keep using the Starforce sytem we have now it just works fine


LOL. Anybody remember the Mig-21? Aren't you being a bit liberal with the truth here just to bang your own drum?


So one 3rd party could not at the start sort out how to do their licensing correctly ?

I admit that the MIG-21 guys made a balls up of how they configured the starforce for their aircraft .. it took them a while
but it is pretty much sorted out now - least it was 2 weeks ago when I had to re-activate it with a hardware change


Leaf, it's not only about Starforce. This way they can unify Steam and Stand-alone versions.

#4392430 - 12/01/17 04:40 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
Leaf, it's not only about Starforce. This way they can unify Steam and Stand-alone versions.



Please link or show me where that has been stated by an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee.

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/01/17 04:41 PM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4392432 - 12/01/17 04:53 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Monnie Rock]  
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Sithspawn said this is the goal eventually, to someone asking about Steam on reddit. And it's logical, since the problem with Steam is the keys. This system uses no keys. When they release the Harrier on Steam they're gonna have to solve this problem anyway.

Last edited by Remon; 12/01/17 04:53 PM.
#4392440 - 12/01/17 05:24 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
Sithspawn said this is the goal eventually, to someone asking about Steam on reddit. And it's logical, since the problem with Steam is the keys. This system uses no keys. When they release the Harrier on Steam they're gonna have to solve this problem anyway.


Cool link that please?



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4392441 - 12/01/17 05:27 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/com...opy_protection_change/dqidyvo/?context=3

The quote is a bit different than I remembered it. But, as I said above, when they release the Harrier on Steam, they'll have to make it work with your digitalcombatsimulator.com account anyway.

#4392448 - 12/01/17 05:43 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
Sithspawn said this is the goal eventually, to someone asking about Steam on reddit. And it's logical, since the problem with Steam is the keys. This system uses no keys. When they release the Harrier on Steam they're gonna have to solve this problem anyway.


Sithpawn is not an Eagle Dynamics Employee. Any changes to purchased content must be stated by an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/01/17 05:44 PM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4392449 - 12/01/17 05:46 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/com...opy_protection_change/dqidyvo/?context=3

The quote is a bit different than I remembered it. But, as I said above, when they release the Harrier on Steam, they'll have to make it work with your digitalcombatsimulator.com account anyway.


indeed it is

"I think that is where they want to go, I dont know if it will work right away, but that would be a benefit eventually."

So it is a guess as it stands basically?



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4392453 - 12/01/17 06:11 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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As I said twice now, they can't release the Harrier on Steam without somehow linking your digitalcombatsimulator.com account with your Steam account, since you need your dcs.com account to run the module.

This link has happened with some games already, not just for copy protection, for example if you want to go on the official Assetto Corsa forums (not the Steam ones) you have to log in with your steam account and link it. Paradox forums do something similar as well.

#4392454 - 12/01/17 06:18 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
As I said twice now, they can't release the Harrier on Steam without somehow linking your digitalcombatsimulator.com account with your Steam account, since you need your dcs.com account to run the module.

This link has happened with some games already, not just for copy protection, for example if you want to go on the official Assetto Corsa forums (not the Steam ones) you have to log in with your steam account and link it. Paradox forums do something similar as well.


As I have said twice now, Sithpawn is not an Official Eagle Dynamics Employee.

His post was based on his assumption / personal opinion

Until a statement comes from a Official Eagle Dynamics Employee, you are spreading false information

They can release the Steam version of the AV-8B Harrier just like Normandy with Steam DRM

Per Steam, on the Steam Store page for Normandy DLC:
RELEASE DATE: Nov 23, 2017
Please note that this DLC uses Steam Keys instead of Starforce keys. As such, this purchase cannot be activated on the DCS World e-Shop version.




Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/01/17 06:34 PM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4392456 - 12/01/17 06:32 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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First, that was for leaf, not you.

Second, THEY ARE MOVING TO A KEYLESS SYSTEM.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3304775&postcount=1


Quote
IMPORTANT: AV-8B COPY PROTECTION CHANGE!


Dear all,

With the release of the AV-8B today, it is import to know that this will be the first DCS World product that uses our new protection system. Rather than use StarForce keys, we are moving to a “keyless” system which binds your purchase to your www.dcs-world.com username, and NOT a key. You will not need a constant internet connection either. The new system will just “phone home” after a three day period or the next time you log into DCS World.

This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you.

We strongly believe that this will make protection of your DCS World products much more simple. At a later point, we hope to apply this same protection system to all of our other modules.

Also, the AV-8B release today is for the Open Beta version of DCS World. Please make sure you use this version and that you update it today.

We must release all new aircraft modules on the Caucasus map first as not everyone may operate one of the DCS 2.1 maps. We don't believe it fair to force customers to purchase one of these maps to fly their new aircraft. We do though plan to update DCS 2.1 for the AV-8B in the next one to two weeks.

Thanks,
The Eagle Dynamics Team


"This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you."

Seriously, can anyone here read?

Last edited by Remon; 12/01/17 06:36 PM.
#4392460 - 12/01/17 06:40 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Remon]  
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Originally Posted by Remon
First, that was for leaf, not you.

Second, THEY ARE MOVING TO A KEYLESS SYSTEM.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=3304775&postcount=1


Quote
IMPORTANT: AV-8B COPY PROTECTION CHANGE!


Dear all,

With the release of the AV-8B today, it is import to know that this will be the first DCS World product that uses our new protection system. Rather than use StarForce keys, we are moving to a “keyless” system which binds your purchase to your www.dcs-world.com username, and NOT a key. You will not need a constant internet connection either. The new system will just “phone home” after a three day period or the next time you log into DCS World.

This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you.

We strongly believe that this will make protection of your DCS World products much more simple. At a later point, we hope to apply this same protection system to all of our other modules.

Also, the AV-8B release today is for the Open Beta version of DCS World. Please make sure you use this version and that you update it today.

We must release all new aircraft modules on the Caucasus map first as not everyone may operate one of the DCS 2.1 maps. We don't believe it fair to force customers to purchase one of these maps to fly their new aircraft. We do though plan to update DCS 2.1 for the AV-8B in the next one to two weeks.

Thanks,
The Eagle Dynamics Team


"This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you."

Seriously, can anyone here read?


Yes, my reading comprehension level is just fine.

It says:
"This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting. Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you."

There is no language about "unify Steam and Stand-alone versions."



Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4392462 - 12/01/17 06:45 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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I seriously doubt that Steam is going to change their stance and allow keys/moduies purchased on the ED site to be used on Steam. They stopped that, on purpose, years ago (probably for financial reasons) and I doubt they will have reconsidered.

Last edited by cichlidfan; 12/01/17 06:51 PM.

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#4392463 - 12/01/17 06:45 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Monnie Rock]  
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No, it means that it will apply to Steam users as well. And to apply to steam users they will have to remove the steam keys that you mentioned.

EDIT: that was for Monnie.

Last edited by Remon; 12/01/17 06:46 PM.
#4392466 - 12/01/17 06:56 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted by cichlidfan
I seriously doubt that Steam is going to change their stance and allow keys/moduies purchased on the ED site to be used on Steam. The stopped that, on purpose, years ago (probably for financial reasons) and I doubt they will have reconsidered.

Correct Sir!

Steam wants Their DRM

Additionally, from Groove, an Offical Eagle Dynamics Employee posted HERE :
Originally Posted by Groove
Dear all,

please note that the DCS: M-2000C and all future DCS World DLC releases on Steam, will now use Steam Keys instead of Starforce keys. As such, these purchases cannot be activated on the DCS World e-Shop version. Previous purchases will not be affected.

Please be advised that this only affects NEW modules on STEAM. Pre Mirage 2000C modules will be issued with StarForce serials.

Thanks


The above quote is the Current terms of purchases of Eagle Dynamics Products at the Steam Store

Originally Posted by Remon



Quote
IMPORTANT: AV-8B COPY PROTECTION CHANGE!


Dear all,

With the release of the AV-8B today, it is import to know that this will be the first DCS World product that uses our new protection system. Rather than use StarForce keys, we are moving to a “keyless” system which binds your purchase to your www.dcs-world.com username, and NOT a key. You will not need a constant internet connection either. The new system will just “phone home” after a three day period or the next time you log into DCS World.

This new system will also provide benefits for Steam users and Gifting Once those details are worked out, we look forward to sharing them with you..

We strongly believe that this will make protection of your DCS World products much more simple. At a later point, we hope to apply this same protection system to all of our other modules.

Also, the AV-8B release today is for the Open Beta version of DCS World. Please make sure you use this version and that you update it today.

We must release all new aircraft modules on the Caucasus map first as not everyone may operate one of the DCS 2.1 maps. We don't believe it fair to force customers to purchase one of these maps to fly their new aircraft. We do though plan to update DCS 2.1 for the AV-8B in the next one to two weeks.

Thanks,
The Eagle Dynamics Team


The details / Steam negotiations / Final agreement has not been stated. They are "working" on it.
Steam could say " Kiss my (_y_) we have Steam DRM here if you want to sell your product here" e.g. The Mirage 2000C and future releases

Everything else is hearsay until the "Details/Negotiations/Final Agreement" between Steam -vs- Eagle are Officially Published.

Last edited by Monnie Rock; 12/01/17 07:21 PM.


Poll Eagle Dynamics New DRM Expiration Period Limit
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#4392468 - 12/01/17 06:57 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted by cichlidfan
I seriously doubt that Steam is going to change their stance and allow keys/moduies purchased on the ED site to be used on Steam. They stopped that, on purpose, years ago (probably for financial reasons) and I doubt they will have reconsidered.


That's what I was thinking also. Time will tell if they worked something out.

#4392472 - 12/01/17 07:31 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: Monnie Rock]  
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Originally Posted by Monnie Rock

Steam wants Their DRM


Actually no, they don't care what DRM you use. As games sold on Steam may include limited activation, constant internet connections or even no DRM at all (not even the Steam DRM) I do not see why it would be different for ED.

What Valve wanted was the profits. They often allow older games to merge onto Steam for free out of goodwill (schemes that are no longer supported, such as GFWL) or because they will think it will bring future business to them. To put it bluntly, most people were buying from the ED website and then activating on Steam. As DCS is not a Steamworks title they were not getting any profits from a purchase on the ED store. But they were paying for the bandwidth for each person that did buy from ED and decided to use Steam to download/update. Add in the fact that the ED store tended to have lower prices, people bought there as the profit margins were better for ED, and the Steam version had limited beta/alpha modules there was little incentive for Valve to continue that policy. It failed to convert most DCS players.

However, now I am more included to use the Steam version of DCS due to this DRM. Since future versions of DCS on Steam lack this DRM I'd prefer to buy from Steam. The problem is now a few of my modules (M2000C, I think MIG-21) cannot be redeemed on Steam so unless I want to pre-purchase those modules on Steam I am stuck with the ED version. If anything, now would be a good time for Valve to temporarily re-instate that policy!

#4392479 - 12/01/17 08:02 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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I've never bought any DCS stuff on Steam. I have nothing against Steam and use it all the time for other games, but there never seemed to be any compelling reason to make the switch for DCS.

In addition, I keep DCS on a dedicated SSD that only has DCS.

My Steam drive is almost full because between myself and my two sons, we buy a crapload of games.....

#4392485 - 12/01/17 08:20 PM Re: Eagle Dynamics - New protection system = the very definition of Bait and switch [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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There's a poll running on the DCS forum now, most popular option seems to be 30 days, be interesting to see what ED do. One things for sure, they seem to have alienated a whole new group of users over this.

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