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#43898 - 10/22/99 04:30 PM Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  

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Perhaps a silly question. It comes from a conversation I had last December at a Christmas party. I was speaking with a Navy F18 driver who was posted to a desk in Panama City Fl.

Somehow flight sims came up and said he flew Janes 15 online with other fighter drivers. He mentioned that it was a laugh, but something he did notice was that pilots from each country have a distinct flying style.

Now I have heard that American Navy Pilots are different from their Airforce counterparts, and so on for Marine pilots, but that was the first time I heard that there were differences in nationalities.

How would these differences be manifested in each countries flight doctrine?

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One of the Privateers

[This message has been edited by Barrett (edited October 22, 1999).]

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#43899 - 10/23/99 10:01 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Hi Barrett

For starters, the biggest difference between AF and Navy pilots as compared to Marine pilots, is that we AF and Navy pilots know who our fathers are.

Only kidding!!

Yes, there are subtle differences in nationalities. Some are cultural-based. Others are the result of religious differences. But past that point, I hate to generalize.

Fighter pilots tend to be Type A personalities. Ego-centered, outgoing extroverts that have no problems having an opinion. This is pretty much true regardles of nationality.

Assuming a standard level of stick and rudder skill, I think you could take a wide range of nationalities and train them such that you would not know the difference.

In the real world then, there are definite differences. But I think these are 'learned' differences due to cultural, ethnic, and religious factors rather than inherent differences.

Andy

#43900 - 10/26/99 04:51 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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And ideological... [Linked Image]

#43901 - 10/26/99 06:26 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Nope...let's not forget that one..

I really hate commies and Clinton-voters...

[Linked Image]

Andy

#43902 - 10/26/99 08:20 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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I second that. [Linked Image]

#43903 - 10/27/99 04:28 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Andy ,
Please , NO political opinions . Thought this was about sims . I like to read your posts on flying , not your bashing of the POTUS . I'll still be reading your posts as long as your name is Bush and not Rush !! Well , now that I've "#%&*$# the bed" so to speak I do have a question , as I (like the other poster stated) respect your opinion when it comes to flying and flight sims . I wondered if you flew any prop sims (know you were a jet pilot) and what you thought about the way the departure from flight was modeled in WWII prop sims (EAW,WWII FIGHTERS ,ECT..) . Wasn't trying to piss you off with my earlier comments just take my country and my President seriously !!

Thanks for the help,
Marc(Sgt_Leviathan)LaPoint


Capt.Leviathan

;\) * Killm' all , let God sortm' out *
#43904 - 10/27/99 04:45 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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p.s. ,

I know this question is really is from a different thread , nobodys perfect !! lol

Marc(Sgt_Leviathan)LaPoint


Capt.Leviathan

;\) * Killm' all , let God sortm' out *
#43905 - 10/27/99 05:16 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Hi Marc

You are right...this is a sim forum, not a political forum.

My remark was really meant as a 'funny' and not as a political statement, but I do see your point. I think I'll try to restrain myself in the future from expressing my obvious complete and total disgust with the present occupant of the White House. And his wife.

As for prop sims, the term 'departure' is somewhat of a misnomer. That term is more correctly used to describe high AOA behavior in jets.

That is not to say that WW2 prop planes did not have some squirrely flight characteristics. They could and did stall with the best of them!! And some, such as the P-39 because of its rear engine location, had stall characteristics that were vicious.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, for a plane to 'spin', it has to be stalled first, and then a yaw force has to be introduced. Just because a plane stalls, either at one 'g' or in an aggravated stall (more than one 'g'), it does not necessarily go into a spin.

Some of our sims treat the spin as the natural result of a stall...probably as an attempt at 'realism'.

As for specifics, I'm just not that familiar with prop sims. I have EAW, WW2, and FCSDOE on my HD. I'll take a look at them and get back to you on this.

Andy

#43906 - 10/27/99 07:37 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Andy ,
You are truly a class act ! It's nice to see you're mature enough to take a little constructive criticism and still respond to me in a positive manner . S! Now that I've buttered you up I would like to expand on my first post . I recently purchased EAW and have been playing it quite a bit lately . I have never flown a P-51 or a FW-190 but the way torque is modeled in the game and how easy it is to put the plane into a spin seem excessive to me . I have never felt this in a Cessna or a Piper , but as i said i have never flown in a WWII fighter . I know you have alot of hours in different ships but didn't know if you had ever been in one of these bombs . Look foward to hearing back from you . Thanks for taking the time !!

Marc (Sgt_Leviathan) LaPoint

quote: " kill'm all , let God sort'm out"


Capt.Leviathan

;\) * Killm' all , let God sortm' out *
#43907 - 10/28/99 12:02 AM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Marc

I got a little flying in this afternoon with EAW and WW2 Fighters to see if I could make anything out of their flight models.

I ran them both at full realism.

I would say that these sims represent the opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to stalls and spins.

WW2 Fighters was the least prone to spins. The stalls were typical of what a real life pilot would see in a light plane such as a Cessna 172. We flew the 172 in pilot training so I have a little experience in stalls in that aircraft. The stall is accompanied by mild wing rock with no tendency to develop into a spin. The recovery is very straightforward...forward stick to break the stall, neutral aileron until flying speed is regained. In fact I was not able to get the Me-109, P-51, P-47, or the P-38 into a spin...they all respond pretty much the same...a mushing upright, shallow wing rock high descent rate, attitude.

EAW was a complete 180 degrees out in stall response. I flew the 109 and the P-47. They both were highly susceptible to spins, particularly in banked high speed stalls. This is probably not unlike real life (although, obviously I have not flown either aircraft.) The 109 was easy to get into an inverted spin from which I was unable to recover. Both aircraft spun easily upright and were very difficult to recover using the spin recovery in the EAW manual. During the recovery, they were both very sensitive to re-stalling and resultant spins in the opposite direction. It took a fine touch to recover either aircraft from the spin.

My suspicion is that the real world aircraft were not this easily spun..but they may well have been this hard to recover...particularly the 109, as it became more and more loaded down as the war progressed. By the end of the war, its wing loading was nothing like it was in 1940.

If I were helping someone, I would suggest running WW2 at full realism and EAW at something less. As in MiG Alley, it's discomforting to have your aircraft spin out of control with little to no warning...this is not fun, and fun is what these sims are supposed to be about.

Andy

#43908 - 10/28/99 09:11 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  

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to really tell the difference,i've found the flight sim dawn of aces aircraft will show a massive diff in spins.the radial engine aircraft seem to spin more easy than the inline engine a/c.a radial engine has more torque[so i was told]than the inline.you guys should try the game,this is where we seperate the jet jocks from the seat of the pants pilots

#43909 - 10/28/99 09:37 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Andy,

Got a question...

What could you tell me about Israeli combat pilots and their level of professionalism?

There is no doubt that they run the most 'efficient' air force the world has ever known and have managed some amazing kill ratios against 'impossible' odds.

Have you ever had any contact with Isreali pilots? What can you tell us about them?

#43910 - 10/29/99 12:58 AM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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I'm no expert on the IAF.

When I was flying F-104s at Luke AFB, Az in 1978, the IAF sent pilots to our base to get checked out in the F-15. At the time, I was a Weapons School instructor...and we thought it would be interesting to interview some of the IAF pilots about their experiences in the 1973 war. It just so happened that some Egyptian pilots were going thru F-5 training at our base also...we also interviewed them about their experiences.

What a contrast in stories!! The Egyptian pilots made a number of kill claims and in general were full of bravado. We, of course knew the classified kill statistics, but did not dispute them openly. When we relayed these stories to the IAF pilots, everybody got a good laugh.

I found the IAF pilots to be very, very good pilots and tacticians. I also thought them to be arrogant beyond belief. But, the simple fact is that they had the bragging rights...and still do as far as I'm concerned. You can't argue with success...particularly when it is so one sided.

At that time, the IAF pilot training process was extremely focused on only producing the most highly qualified pilots to fly fighters. As we understood it, IAF squadron supervisors had to maintain themselves in the top of the squadron gunnery and bombing score rankings or else they would lose their job. That is starkly contrasted with USAF standard practice wherein squadron supervisors seldom maintain that kind of proficiency. The USAF promotion system does not even rate flying proficiency at all once a pilot advances past the rank of Lieutenant.

All in all, if I had to make a judgement, I would say the IAF is the best trained and most capable air force, pound for pound, in the world.

Andy

#43911 - 10/29/99 01:59 PM Re: Nationalities and Air Combat Culture  
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Thanks Andy for the feedback. I have always admired the Isreali air force but at the same time have been skeptical since they have always fought against Arab countries. Obviously the Arab equipment at the time wasn't the issue but the poor training and dedication that the Arab pilots showed.

I'm sure things have changed and now (at least the Egyptians) have changed their methods and their equipment...


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