Flogger23m made a claim in the DCS sub-forum which I would like to directly challenge and hopefully bring the matter to a decisive close. Due to the thread being locked and possibly some posts being deleted or altered, I'm going to post screenshots. To show that all I'm interested in is debunking Flogger's statements **OR** admitting to my mistake, I will only show parts of the posts that relate to this issue.

He started off with this:




Naturally, he got called out for his "hackjob" statement. This was his reply... I'm posting a quote because his original post got deleted due to reasons.




This was the last post on the topic:







So he called Falcon 4 BMS 4.32.?? a hack job and incomplete, citing:

a. Menu system that was horrendous and laggy
b. Buttons had to be clicked to the right of the button to activate it
c. Cockpit textures muddy and unclear, missing textures
d. Horrendous sounds
e. 3D models were from the mid-90s
f. Falcon BMS at such a WIP state that made DCS look complete
g. Training missions useless/worthless

In his last post, Flogger is claiming that some of the issues (missing textures, UI alignment) were not signs of a botched install.... but that these issues can appear in one person's install and not in another person's install, but isn't that the very definition of a botched install?

If the issues were repeatable, then it would clearly be a fault of the software. If the issues were one-off, then it would most likely be due to a botched install or some sort of software incompatibility. I am unclear how many installs he made to test the issue or even how many runs of the program he did to test for repeatability.

When pressed, Flogger admits not asking for help either here or on the BMS forums.



In the spirit of honesty and integrity, I will concede the following:
A. 3D models from the 90s -- I assume he's referring to some vehicle models, in that case, this is true. However, I don't see this as a bad thing as a low-poly model will save on FPS, won't really be seen unless the player has done something really wrong (ie, flying at 3 feet above the ground passing 20 feet from the ground unit), and doesn't really impact gameplay. It does look ugly on the TGP, but depending on what model we're talking about, the player really shouldn't be that close to those units or that the unit won't be intact for very long. If the 3D model issue were on an F-16 or other aircraft, I will admit that it's more an issue then.

B. Falcon WIP and Training mission issues -- I'm sure the Falcon BMS devs would agree with me that this "mod" is indeed a WIP. However, BMS as a WIP is not the same as ED's Alpha/Beta/Early Access products. As for the training missions in 4.32, I would agree that they left a lot to be desired. The Straight-In Approach TE wasn't really straight-in and there were a few issues in other TEs as well. However, they were not totally worthless, just really confusing. Great steps have been taken to rectify this situation and 4.33 is much better in this regard. Having said that, due to BMS' WIP nature, there are no A-A training TEs yet, which was one thing I miss from 4.32.



My first question:
1. What version of Falcon BMS 4.32 was he using? I intend to install that exact same version to see if I can replicate the issue and thus lend credence to his claim or to determine whether this was a case of PICNIC. I will test for menu lag, mis-aligned button activation zones, cockpit texture clarity and completeness, and sound issues. I could just install 4.32.1 and argue that it's the most basic version of the software but I know that future updates to 4.32 did introduce new issues (such as that downdraft on final!) so I am entertaining the possibility that this is a bug in an update.

Why am I thinking this is an instance of a botched install? Simply because Falcon BMS has a unique distribution and installation method. It's gotten to the point that I've made two How-To threads (BMS 4.32 in late 2012 and BMS 4.33 in early 2017) just for installing BMS. Combine that with a myriad of hardware setups and driver versions, botched torrent downloads or corrupted direct downloads, not to mention installing over previous Falcon version, and a lot of things can go very wrong over very simple reasons.

Stick to nursing, because software isn't your thing. Sarcasm aside, lets dig right into it.

No, those issues are not a sign of a botched software install. Yes, bugs are not always 100% repeatable in software. You do not even have to know much about software QA to realize this. I am sure you have done basic testing in the past and you realize this despite your claims. You made a big misstep with this one. You will also realize that certain issues may be present in certain hardware combinations or settings. Come back to BMS as an example, I believe I was using a 1680x1050 monitor back then. The menu issues may or may not have been present on a 1920x1080 monitor. If the case that is not acceptable, as 1680 was a common resolution. This is just one example of why you may not have experienced such an issue but others may have. There are dozens of reasons why every single user does not have the same issues, it very rarely has anything to do with how one installed the software. Software is typically very easy to setup and I don't recall BMS being particularly hard.

So let us be clear ICE: Every possible bug occurs at a rate of 100% across all hardware configurations in software. If a bug appears at a rate of less than 100%, as in, four out of five people experience a bug but the fifth does not means the fifth person installed the software wrong. This is your argument.

I also never asked for help because I never saw any perceived bugs. The game was WIP, we all knew it was WIP, and we all knew it was based on a game from the 90s. But the lack of qualify/consistency is something you cannot dispute. Everything from the menu, to the sound volume mixing in the menu, 3D cockpits of some of the aircraft - very rough. About the only thing that was not very rough was the F-16 itself.

Also let us keep in mind, it is you who accused me of incorrectly installing BMS. I do not recall having any issues installing BMS. That is a fictional point you pulled out of thin air. You implied I did not enjoy BMS because I was unintelligent, the main factor being I enjoying Flaming Cliffs 3. And that any of the WIP content I saw was a result of me not installing it properly. As you later admitted, you are a Falcon 4 fanboy. You got upset because:

1) I am a lesser person for enjoying a simpler flight sim. You use this as something to look down upon me on. This theme runs rampant in your posts whether you realize it or not. Likewise, my lack of a flight sim cockpit means I can't critique your hackjob pit (well if you don't develop flight sims, you can't critique ED's handling of DCS by that logic), and you apparently look down upon who use public transit. Even though in large parts of the world it makes sense to use public transit and private car ownership is not practical... by the way, I don't use public transit. If you really want to get into a crap slinging fest over your supposed superiority over others for your "complex tastes", may you correct me here: Didn't you make a post some years back about buying a cheap piece of junk car for a few thousand pounds? Ha!

2) I pointed out that I found the experience unsatisfactory, rough, very WIP, and felt like a hackjob. Apparently, BMS is perfect. Anything wrong is a result of an incorrect install (LOL!) and the user is unintelligent.

Maybe look into a bit about software QA before you ramble on more. Or apply for a job at Apple, I'm sure your concept and understanding of trouble shooting will turn the tech industry on its head. After you have done that, acquire the following:

1680x1050 monitor
1920x1080 monitor

AMD 965, DDR2 8GB, Win 7 Pro 64 bit, GTX 670 / GTX 560 ti 1GB
Intel 4670K, DDR3 8GB, Win 7 Pro 64bit , GTX 670

If I can find a screen shot or video that I took from BMS, I can maybe get the date and you can zero in on the build version. I know I took a number, but I cannot seem to find them. They may have been deleted some time back.

And ICE, are you still going to claim I am a DCS fanboi? You keep accusing me of being a DCS fanboi. I mentioned I have made critical posts and threads about DCS in the past and even mentioned I made a thread a few months back critiquing a module. One you replied to. You refused to look it up. Because you accused me of something and are too lazy to look it up to see how you are incorrect, you continuously call me a fanboi repeatedly. You expect me to prove your baseless accusation wrong. That is not how it works. Maybe where you come from you accuse someone, corner them and make them prove they are innocent. That does not happen where I come from. As I mentioned, you can take someone out of the third world but you cannot take the third world out of a person. Very ironic since your home country is killing thousands of its own citizens on sight without a trial. Your thought process is straight off the boat. I am sorry if this offends you. I understand you may not even realize the cultural difference in your ideology compared to that of the West, which you seem to hold a mild disdain for. And yes this is getting political, because your arguing style naturally draws us there.

I know this went off topic, but it is very important to bring out into the open because I cannot have a meaningful conversation with you any other way. To a much lesser extend it is like arguing with an ISIS supporter. Our views/ideas of who bares the blame, how the victim is accused and punished is just not compatible. They are just not compatible with us, and need to leave on their own accord or in a body bag. Again, that is an extreme example and I am not suggesting you deserve that. I am merely using an extreme example to show the divide in our cultural thought processes. You will continue to accuse me of things and attempt to make me (the victim) prove my innocence. This isn't the Philippines, it is SimHQ. I don't have to provide you proof for your nonsensical claims. I dropped some hints already - "M2000", check my ED forums post history. If you won't do that, too bad. It only makes you look like an idiot.

You have an uphill battle because you know you are wrong on point number 1) which is why you are refusing to look up the posts. You also know point number 2) is bull$hit because even you know software bugs do not occur in the ways you claim they do, realize BMS had a lot of WIP content in the past, and literally cannot prove I installed it wrong. At this point if you cannot attempt to do either of those two things you may as well not even reply as it means there is literally no common ground or understanding between us. Further diolgue would be pointless.

Best of luck to you, and welcome to the Wild West!

1 simple question -- what version of Falcon BMS 4.32? 1,263-word post and no answer.



Please do come back when you have this information. Thanks!

Oh man.

Flogger doesn't like it. OK with me.

My only concern is that comments like his could be misleading to newcomers, otherwise we are all adults and can make up our own minds, have our own opinions. If Flogger didn't find much to like in BMS that's OK.

Now if he were asking what can I do to improve things then maybe the situation could be salvaged. But short of that so what? Maybe he is just unimpressed.

I think that "BMS is a hackjob" is absurd, and possibly in retrospect he might choose a different phrase, I dunno. BMS to me is the finest jet combat flight sim ever, and it's not even close. Nothing comes close to what BMS offers, and I've flown most all of 'em. But ya know what? It doesn't bother me when I see stuff like this, other than to think of what possible effect it might have on a prospective player. I see little sense in debating the matter. I like it, he does not. *shrug*

None of us are doing anyone any favors by making the forums any more hostile or toxic with an argument that is going to end up a stalemate anyway. Instead of trying to prove Flogger wrong, I say we offer to help sort the situation, if he has any interest in seeing if his initial assessment was accurate, or if indeed there were issues that could be worked out and change his perception. Short of that it's all just pissin' in the wind.

He's not worth wasting the time over.

That is the the long and short of it. ICE is trying to salvage his anti DCS rant by trying to look like a good, helpful person. I was unimpressed, didn't enjoy the experience much and it felt unrefined. The only reason I brought it up is because in my eyes there are two options for modern combat flight simulators:

- DCS
- Falcon 4

And neither exactly felt complete to me, both feel very WIP. I mentioned you could support DCS by buying the modules if you found enjoyment in them (which another member did) or not purchase them and perhaps they will go out of business. Everyone is free to make up their mind and take their stance. Apparently this made me:

1) A DCS fanboi
2) An idiot
3) BMS at the time I played it had no WIP content, and any bugs I encountered were related to a messed up install due to lack of intelligence (enjoying certain DCS modules used as a metric of intelligence here)... because apparently, all bugs are repeatable across all hardware configurations 100% of the time (he has backed off this stance now)
4) "hahahahahha"

Apparently he was very offended by me not liking BMS because I thought it felt WIP. Therefore he feels he has to protect the BMS and Falcon's honor or something. So he devises a plan to "help" me install something I have installed in the past and since uninstalled years back. In his mind this will make him a "good guy" or something. I believe he is trying to deflect his constant criticism of DCS which he now realizes looks a bit silly, most of which is overly sarcastic and pointless.

Now keep in mind, I never had any issues installing BMS in the first place (that I can recall). But he continues to accuse me of this (lol?) so I asked him to search my post history and see if he can dig up any posts/threads I may made which would indicate I did not install BMS right. Then he would at least have evidence for his claims. But, apparently he wants me to do that for him. "You can take someone out of the third word, but you can't take the third world out of them" is true for ICE. He acts and behaves just like the typical person in a sub par country. You can't really have a conversation with someone like that. I believe he now realizes his accusations are so absurd and there is no feasible way to find "evidence" for his claims, so he wants to install an old version of BMS on his end to prove that everything had perfect consistent quality and that there were no bugs. So he makes this topic in the Falcon 4 forums. Ha!

I also believe he (it may have been someone else) made a post telling me that I should have reported any bugs or WIP content to the BMS developers back when I had tried it. Because I didn't, said issues or shortcomings didn't exist. I guess he did not get the memo, but I am not a BMS beta tester and it is not my job to report on any WIP content or bugs that may have seeped into a certain build. If he wants me to report those bugs as I encounter them he can open his wallet and start paying me, but I won't beta test it for free.

In any case, if you enjoy Falcon you can continue enjoying it. I didn't, which is why I never bothered to install it again. I doubt you were offended by me not liking BMS and just chalked it up to different tastes, like a normal person would.

As for ICE, he has plenty of info. There are still two simple points he has to address. One of which he still hasn't fully admitted he was wrong to (accusing me of being a DCS fanboi) even after dropping dozens of hints for him to find to verify himself. It is no wonder his home country is a mess, too many people like ICE can't take their own issues and tackle it without outside intervention doing all the work for them. I feel bad for the good people there trying to make a difference and better the country, they are probably out numbered by dozens of guys just like ICE.

The second point he has partially backed off of, finally admitting that bugs are not always 100% repeatable and that all bugs or WIP content are not solely related to botched installs.

Now he has to prove (to himself, because I doubt the rest of the Falcon community cares) that an old version of BMS had not WIP content or bugs. With all of the hints, hardware configurations and whatnot I have dropped he should have plenty of evidence to zero on a few builds and start testing away. Maybe you can PM me when he gets around to it because I'm not sure I can listen to this guy drone on further about a sim I don't particularly care about.

So the score so far:

1) Side stepped. Knows they are wrong but won't admit it.

2) Back peddled. Now has some more work to do.

Lets say that is a 50% score. About as good as his home country. Getting there but not quite. Lets see if he can jump above the average.

Nobody here cares about your side of the story. You got your thread closed down and now you come here to start trouble???

Seriously, just knock it off.

About the response I expect from most. I'm still not sure what he is trying to accomplish after getting the DCS thread locked (his implied goal from the start), but he did want to bring this into the Falcon 4 forums. So I satisfied his wish. He seems to have backed down now because I assume most of the Falcon 4 players can not care much about his DCS quarrels. I think most people are similar to DBond, they cannot care if someone likes a sim or not. I offered him to take it to PMs, but he seemingly ignored that. Maybe he will continue trying to prove whatever it is he needs about Falcon. The good news is it seems like he backed down as he is not admitting he is wrong on many counts and finally realized his accusations make zero sense. With luck that is the end of it. The best case scenario is he tones down his negativity in the DCS forums and doesn't let it spill into the Falcon forums.

Whatever facts you had you lost when you attacked ice's country. That is flat out wrong
and 1/8 inch short of blatant racist crap. I doubt if that will go over well.

Anyway I took off from sims for almost a decade cause of this kind of stuff, I would not
have said anything but you dumped the racial #%&*$# in to the mix, there is no way that stuff is ever right in any context.

Just for reference, THIS is what I'm expecting from someone when they honestly encounter an issue, be it Falcon BMS or DCS or any other game out there. He made a post detailing his issue, provided a screenshot of the issue, and tried altering some settings in order to see if that is the cause of the issue. End result? Problem solved. Also note that there were TWO individuals with similar problems but different hardware specs and BOTH had their issues resolved in under 3 days.

Installing a game, encountering issues that make it unplayable, and putting it aside is perfectly fine. Assuming to have installed it correctly, encountering issues, then slagging the game off without even going to the forums to see if the issue is normal or if it's some conflict issue or if it's a PICNIC issue is a totally different story.