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#4389244 - 11/12/17 03:20 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Flogger23m
If they can't get the avionics done at release they can always do a simplified version (with all weapons, radar, and systems present just simplified). I know, it will cause a diversion because more time will be needed to code basic avionics and all the testing that comes with it. But I'd happily buy it. Die hard fans can buy it then "upgrade" when the time comes. People who only want the study sim version can wait however long it takes for it to release.

Um, no. The Hornet has been in development since 2014 (??maybe earlier??) and so far all we got is a few "introduction" videos. You yourself speculated that ED only had a limited number of programmers and thus a limited pool of that resource. Assuming that all work thus far on the Hornet has been for a DCS-level product, then doing a simplified version has not been the plan. To do so will put out a FC3 Hornet out sooner rather than later, POSSIBLY, but to do so will put out a DCS Hornet much, much later FOR SURE.

**NOW** you're the one sounding like "stop liking what I don't like" since you're so eager to have an FC3 Hornet that you're willing to throw the DCS Hornet customers under the bus.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
One thing we know for sure is ED was successful before they started chasing the study sim concept, and I have no doubt that a simplified Hornet will get them a return on their investment. $30-35 or so at release, and then the full fidelity version can be $100 or whatever is necessary to turn a profit and release when it is done.

Previous success only proves previous success.... please do not claim this as evidence while ignoring everything after DCS A10C and DCS BS2. ED was successful before, they don't seem to be doing very well now.... Some would even argue that they've been on a decline since BEFORE DCS A10C. $100 for DCS Hornet after years of delay and an initial simplified release? That better come with a new map, comprehensive training missions, damn impressive carrier ops, and a good number of campaigns! I can't see how they can justify $100 just for a single airframe....

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Probably won't happen, but it is nice to think about. biggrin

All due respect, Flogger, but let's keep daydreaming to a minimum....


I'm just saying if they can't get a full fidelity Hornet done right at release I'd rather have an FC3 like version. A study sim Hornet without a functioning radar won't please much of anyone. I can't imagine what kind of posts you'd be making then, considering what you write now. wink At least an FC3 level Hornet is a viable product. I'd rather get that sooner and delay the study sim for another 6-12 months.

As for the price tag, I think we all know it won't be $60. That ship has sailed, and FSX and Star Citizen and whatnot continue to sell planes/ships for more than DCS does. Part of the reason I prefer FC3 planes, they can potentially be notably cheaper, quicker to develop, offer more diverse air frames, and programming time can be spent in other areas more important to the combat aspect.

I'll continue liking what I like, and you'll have to deal with it. Why don't you quit posting on this forum, enjoy Prepare3D, BMS and whatever else you consider to be a good flight sim. Come back in 2-3 years, maybe the Hornet and some other updates will be out and you can see if you want to give it another shot. I think you'll be happier playing or discussing those games than posting here. Fact is ED and DCS will never be good enough for you. At least not in the short run. You're likely not going to save someone from disappointment or similar in regards to DCS. It really is futile.

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#4389247 - 11/12/17 03:47 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: Flogger23m]  
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Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'm just saying if they can't get a full fidelity Hornet done right at release I'd rather have an FC3 like version.

And what I'm saying is if they can't get a full fidelity Hornet (which was their plan all along) done right at release-plus-3-to-5 years (because it's already past their initial deadline), then tell me again why you still think ED is not mis-managed? Two wrongs don't make a right and releasing an FC3 module after years of talking/hypeing/planning a DCS module doesn't make things any better.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
A study sim Hornet without a functioning radar won't please much of anyone. I can't imagine what kind of posts you'd be making then, considering what you write now. wink At least an FC3 level Hornet is a viable product. I'd rather get that sooner and delay the study sim for another 6-12 months.

Again, this was a DCS product from Day 1. A fair assumption would be that they were working on the A-G radar from Day 1. If they still don't have that now, what makes you think suddenly shifting to simplified A-G radar would push the product out the door faster? Also, 6-12 months? We are almost onto 2018 but the calendar in the ED office still reads 2016, so I guess you'll have to double your figures.... some would even say triple or quadruple, depending on the level of polish we're talking about on the product. So yeah, at least double or triple for early access, quadruple or more for a "proper" release.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
As for the price tag, I think we all know it won't be $60. That ship has sailed, and FSX and Star Citizen and whatnot continue to sell planes/ships for more than DCS does. Part of the reason I prefer FC3 planes, they can potentially be notably cheaper, quicker to develop, offer more diverse air frames, and programming time can be spent in other areas more important to the combat aspect.

Sorry, remind me again how the A-G radar is not important to the combat aspect?

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I'll continue liking what I like, and you'll have to deal with it.

Good! But you'll have to deal with us also liking what we like.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Why don't you quit posting on this forum, enjoy Prepare3D, BMS and whatever else you consider to be a good flight sim.

I'll continue posting on this forum and you'll have to deal with it.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Come back in 2-3 years,

I thought you said 6-12 months? Didn't take you long to double/triple your estimates!!

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
maybe the Hornet and some other updates will be out and you can see if you want to give it another shot.

That's a big MAYBE.

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
I think you'll be happier playing or discussing those games than posting here.

What makes you think I'm not happy pointing out ED's faults and ED fanboys' flawed logic?

Originally Posted by Flogger23m
Fact is ED and DCS will never be good enough for you. At least not in the short run. You're likely not going to save someone from disappointment or similar in regards to DCS. It really is futile.

That is true. Continuing at present course, ED will need a good few years to be "good enough." I was willing to give them a high score with a decent release of the Hornet, but even that doesn't seem to be the case now seeing as they're opting for this "all our customers are idiots" approach regarding Hornet features release. Not in the short run, not even in the medium run. A joke that has been around for a while is that DCS would be the perfect combat flight simulator for our grandchildren to enjoy and that seems to be more like a reality than a joke now.

As for saving someone from disappointment, I beg to differ. You can see here how many people have voiced their withdrawal from supporting DCS and this is echoed in other forums as well. I don't have to do anything, ED is doing such a good job at doing a bad job that only the most die-hard supporters or sim-lite enthusiasts continue to be starry-eyed at DCS. You know, the people who continue to be seehearspeak


- Ice
#4389251 - 11/12/17 04:39 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: leigh583]  
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So uh... dynamic campaign? Where is it?

#4389253 - 11/12/17 05:01 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
So uh... dynamic campaign? Where is it?

Hahahahaha.... they're struggling enough to release the Hornet as a DCS-level module, nevermind releasing it on time! I'm not sure how they managed it, but from altitude, Nevada looks ugly and this is a sim where graphics is supposed to be top-notch! The A-G radar, which is supposed to be the hallmark of the Hornet module, is nowhere to be found! I don't think we'll be seeing a DC in this sim in at least a decade, if ever!


- Ice
#4389255 - 11/12/17 05:33 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: leigh583]  
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Wait... still no A-G radar? What the hell is this crap? Well, no amount of features will convince me to buy the F-18 until there is a dynamic campaign. I'm sick of lifeless scripted crap.

#4389269 - 11/12/17 10:39 AM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
Originally Posted by bkthunder

Because you and the other 49 fanboys are happily getting ripped off......


And what's that to you?

For the amount of time I'll get out of the product at the early release price it's literally cents per hour so it's money well spent. So no, please don't spend your time worrying about me - I'm not getting ripped off at all.



I see you haven't lost the ED modus operandi... you guys should learn how to read and quote a full sentence, the answer to you question was right there....
Originally Posted by bkthunder

Because you and the other 49 fanboys are happily getting ripped off, while ruining it for the remaining 50. Paying top dollar for a near-vaporware product will give ED the necessary funds to ensure it stays incomplete, and move on to the next Beta product that will never be finished, for the very same reasons. It's called a vicious circle.

#4389278 - 11/12/17 12:45 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: bkthunder]  
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Originally Posted by bkthunder
you guys should learn how to read and quote a full sentence

Seems like a job requirement smile


- Ice
#4389279 - 11/12/17 12:47 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: Mr_Blastman]  
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Originally Posted by Mr_Blastman
Wait... still no A-G radar? What the hell is this crap? Well, no amount of features will convince me to buy the F-18 until there is a dynamic campaign. I'm sick of lifeless scripted crap.


Have a look at ED's own Facebook post.
The initial release will only have A/A radar and even then, it'll only come with RWS, STT, and ACM modes, TWS will come later.... No A-G radar on initial release, that'll come later as well. Want to use the Maverick, TGP, JHMCS, or LGBs? That won't come in the initial release. Oh, and you'll also only have the AIM-9 and AIM-7, the AIM-120 will come later.

Why?

"We believe that starting with the more “simple” systems at early access roll-out allows a more shallow learning curve at the start. By then adding new systems gradually, it introduces the Hornet’s sensors and weapons in a more structured manner… much like what a real Hornet pilot goes through when learning the aircraft. This also allows us more time to fully develop the more complex systems in a way that delivers the most realistic experience possible."

In other words, you guys are too stupid to handle all of the Hornet's systems straight away, so we'll ease you into it. This will give you better immersion in the game and you'll feel like real Hornet pilots! Also, no pause feature to allow you to go to the bathroom... a real Hornet pilot does not have this luxury so you better buy piddle packs.

Oh, you've played with TWS and other A-G modes in the F-15 and in other sims? Well, ours is different and works differently so you have no idea how to work it until we show you. What's that? The F-15 has AIM-120s and the A-10C has a TGP and can use Mavericks and LGBs? Well, the Hornet is different and these work differently so you have no idea how to work it until we show you.

Remember guys, this is all about adding immersion to your Hornet experience! It has absolutely nothing to do with ED still not being able to figure out how to do this programming bullsh!t....


- Ice
#4389284 - 11/12/17 02:01 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: bkthunder]  
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Originally Posted by bkthunder
Paying top dollar for a near-vaporware product.....



Let's try this again:

Why would you pay top dollar in the first place knowing it's a near vaporware product?


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#4389291 - 11/12/17 02:48 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
Let's try this again:

Why would you pay top dollar in the first place knowing it's a near vaporware product?

Did you realize that "you" in this sense meant YOU guys who pay for early access??


- Ice
#4389298 - 11/12/17 03:46 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
Originally Posted by bkthunder
Paying top dollar for a near-vaporware product.....



Let's try this again:

Why would you pay top dollar in the first place knowing it's a near vaporware product?


I'll return you the question:

- Why would YOU pay "top dollar" to buy something that may never be completed?

Or putting into another perspective:

- Why would YOU pay for a car which initially comes without an engine and all you have is a "vague promise" by the manufacturer that ONE DAY (whatever that day might be) an engine will be implemented in the car??

#4389300 - 11/12/17 04:07 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes


- Why would YOU pay "top dollar" to buy something that may never be completed?


As answered in a previous post in this thread (pg 6), for the amount of time I'll get out of the product at the early release price it's literally cents per hour so it's money well spent. And no, top dollar is not the term I used. Prices these days for modules in hardly 'top-dollar'. So no, I'm not getting ripped off at all if other RL prices/entertainment is anything to go by.

And no, I'm not a fanboy. I have little time to put aside getting worked up over a measly $50 piece of software.....there are too many roses left to smell.


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#4389306 - 11/12/17 04:27 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper


As answered in a previous post in this thread (pg 6), for the amount of time I'll get out of the product at the early release price it's literally cents per hour so it's money well spent. And no, top dollar is not the term I used. Prices these days for modules in hardly 'top-dollar'. So no, I'm not getting ripped off at all if other RL prices/entertainment is anything to go by.

And no, I'm not a fanboy. I have little time to put aside getting worked up over a measly $50 piece of software.....there are too many roses left to smell.



If you're willing to waste time on a F/A-18 which doesn't have a TWS radar mode and any Air-to-Ground radar and modes at all than that's your problem! Just don't expect everyone else here wasting time like you do...

You say that you aren't a DCS fanboy but please answer me with a straight an honest reply (the best and most honestly that you can):
- If there was an another developer (totally unrelated to ED/DCS) building a F/A-18 sim which in its initial release would NOT include a TWS radar mode and/or any Air-to-Ground radar and modes would you still buy it??

#4389307 - 11/12/17 04:27 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
As answered in a previous post in this thread (pg 6), for the amount of time I'll get out of the product at the early release price it's literally cents per hour so it's money well spent.

And as I asked in a previous post in this thread, sure it's cents per hour for an INCOMPLETE PRODUCT. Now imagine cents per hour for a COMPLETE PRODUCT!! Isn't that money even better spent?


Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
I'm not getting ripped off at all if other RL prices/entertainment is anything to go by.

You could get a complete module for the price you paid.... yet you aren't. Still think you're not getting ripped off?


Originally Posted by 159th_Viper
And no, I'm not a fanboy. I have little time to put aside getting worked up over a measly $50 piece of software.....there are too many roses left to smell.

Continually missing the point, ignoring replies, and being selective in your quoted response doesn't look too legit for you. Guess it must be nice to be so blissfully unaware how you're not getting proper value for your money.


- Ice
#4389308 - 11/12/17 04:36 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes


If you're willing to waste time on a F/A-18 which doesn't have a TWS radar mode and any Air-to-Ground radar and modes at all than that's your problem! Just don't expect everyone else here wasting time like you do...



It's not my problem.

It's my choice. It's good having a choice, eh?

Why are you getting worked up over a choice that I make for my personal entertainment? I sure as hell don't expect you to exercise the same choice I do. And no, I will not be wasting my time - don't worry about me. You will not be wasting your time either by not purchasing: It's a win-win for the both of us.

Originally Posted by ricnunes

If there was an another developer (totally unrelated to ED/DCS) building a F/A-18 sim which in its initial release would NOT include a TWS radar mode and/or any Air-to-Ground radar and modes would you still buy it??


Selling for the same price at the same fidelity at early release?

Yes.

As I said, mere pennies per hour in entertainment.


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#4389320 - 11/12/17 07:18 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: leigh583]  
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And right here we have the perfect ED customer. Perfectly happy with part of the module while paying full price and stupid enough not to know the difference.


- Ice
#4389323 - 11/12/17 07:39 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
And right here we have the perfect ED customer. Perfectly happy with part of the module while paying full price and stupid enough not to know the difference.


Maybe some people aren't happy but would like to support ED anyways. Maybe they will end up enjoying the early access and be even happier when it gets to release. When your alternatives are:

1) Falcon 4 of some variation
2) Literally nothing

I can see some people willingly pay for early access if they think it keeps ED afloat. There are two lines of thought here. One is to try and support them even if they are under performing because if they go out of business there may not be another developer willing to start a similar project anytime soon. The other is to not support them and possibly let them go out of business and hope another studio out there gets into the niche flight sim business. From an individuals perspective neither opinion is wrong but there is no need to insult others for their preference. You've clearly made your decision and seem to be content with it.

As for Viper, I believe he is saying even a partially finished Hornet will still be fun enough for himself. If he gets 30 or so hours of fun out of it he will certainly get a good deal on the dollar/hour ratio. Compare that to going to a movie or eating out and it certainly is cheap. I'm sure he can tell the difference of a Hornet lacking a working A/G radar, but he can still have fun with the module as is.

Kind of like how people enjoyed Falcon 4 BMS, which was extremely incomplete the last time I tried it. I didn't find it compelling in the slightest to learn because it felt like a hack job, but enough people find it fun enough. Which is fine, a lot of people have been enjoying it. Personally you'd have to pay me to use it.

#4389330 - 11/12/17 07:58 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: 159th_Viper]  
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Originally Posted by 159th_Viper


It's not my problem.

It's my choice. It's good having a choice, eh?

Why are you getting worked up over a choice that I make for my personal entertainment? I sure as hell don't expect you to exercise the same choice I do. And no, I will not be wasting my time - don't worry about me. You will not be wasting your time either by not purchasing: It's a win-win for the both of us.


I get "worked out" because I honestly believe that it's decisions like the one you're making that are indirectly responsible for all these modules that probably will never be finished.
For example if people keep buying unfinished/Alpha/Beta modules then why would the devs finish their modules at all?? Actually this behavior is already happening with no modules ever getting finished while new ones are being released by the same devs that didn't finish their previous modules.
So I don't want to offend but anyone who can't see this is with all due respect, being blind and narrowminded!

So yes, I would say that's (your) problem. And the problem seems to be even more severe since you can't even be aware of this.

But if this makes you happy, ok fine... Who am I to crash your party.




Originally Posted by 159th_Viper


Selling for the same price at the same fidelity at early release?

Yes.

As I said, mere pennies per hour in entertainment.


By the matter of fact, have you bought CAP2?

#4389337 - 11/12/17 08:26 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: leigh583]  
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I bought modules in early access and was willing to do so, at the time. However I will no longer do so. When buying EA one understands that one is buying an in development module. The time it has taken from purchase to now, is in my opinion, unreasonable for a product to still be in development. I am not talking about weeks but years. Especially considering the developers have released more EA products and are having to juggle their workforce to cover the multiple EAs. Fool me once dot dot dot. It is a shame that folk are willing to part with their money in exchange for a dream and empty promises from a developer that has in no way improved their business model, "there's one born every minute". They must be the folk you read about that get suckered into sending their money to the king of some backwater #%&*$# they read about in some email. Shame on you


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Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4389338 - 11/12/17 08:37 PM Re: DCS: F/A-18C Hornet [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes

I get "worked out" because I honestly believe that it's decisions like the one you're making that are indirectly responsible for all these modules that probably will never be finished.
For example if people keep buying unfinished/Alpha/Beta modules then why would the devs finish their modules at all?? Actually this behavior is already happening with no modules ever getting finished while new ones are being released by the same devs that didn't finish their previous modules.
So I don't want to offend but anyone who can't see this is with all due respect, being blind and narrowminded!




If you get so worked up over a PC game then maybe it's time to consider another hobby, alternatively another PC game?

Originally Posted by ricnunes


By the matter of fact, have you bought CAP2?


No.

Was not even aware of it's existence until I googled it a few moments ago. I have too many other things to attend to, with PC games being relatively low on my list of priorirties so it's no surprise that I had no idea of CAP2.


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