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#4387123 - 10/28/17 08:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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schnidrman Offline
Jason Schneider
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OK, first of all, I may have confused you a little bit with the lead making calls part. I didn't mean that other members are completely restricted from making calls, such as declaring contacts. These procedures vary among different wings/squadrons.

I'm not trying to criticize you, but I don't know how to answer your question because when you have 20 or so ships from both sides in one area, there are just too many chances for a FUBAR. That is why I stay on the outside looking in. I'm surely not going to fire a slammer into a mix like that, mainly because I'm not going to take a chance on a frat kill. It is also unlikely that any flights in this mess are going to be in formation which means sorting via radar contacts is going to be near impossible. This is why I try to stay away from this mess.

But, if I did stray into this mess and had a contact locked up, I would call out something like, Fury 1-2, Raygun, Bullseye 205, 35 miles Angels 16. Then I would wait for a buddy spike call (AI will do this automatically if you hard lock them), or cleared hot from my flight lead. Then act accordingly. But I would probably have already ID'd the contact visually or on my TGP, so if I'm already weapons free, then I'm taking the shot if I'm in good position.

IRL, just using IFF data is not a qualifier for taking a shot. BTW, your radar will ID your target if you are close enough (15-20 miles?) and you have a good head on angle.

The way we did it the other night is just fine, when we called out or intent to call AWACS before calling AWACS so that other flight members knew not to step on our calls.

I really hope that helps. Maybe I'm not quite understanding exactly what you are asking.

tactical


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#4387141 - 10/28/17 11:23 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
If I have someone locked up and the lead has another locked up, is the lead supposed to drop his lock, to acquire mine so that I know if I can fire?



In your case, thing should have been pre-briefed so once 2 or 1 confirmed they have locked same target 2 or 1 change target as briefed.
Detail Lead/Wingman sorting procedure including brevities is in AFTTP.

#4387144 - 10/28/17 11:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I guess it's no longer important, but was asked after you had mentioned that the flight lead was responsible for picture, threat and declare calls. Since we were flying in a few hours I wanted to wrap my head around the concept, mainly considering that I've mostly flown with this open to all pilots. In most cases, it's not an issue, bad guys are on one side, and good guys are on the other. However, there are times when you find yourself in the middle and I listed some examples of when this is likely to occur. It seems too simple to me to assume that Red aircraft cannot get behind you as long as you're careful. Maybe if you're flying strictly air to air you can keep things this way. But if your mission is to say hit Bihac airfield a few hours in to Balance of Power you are almost certain to come off target with enemy and friendlies in all quadrants. In Strong DPRK IF you could easily have Red aircraft behind you, even capping your base.

So in these situations, when the flight lead is evading a missile shot and going one way, and the wingman is doing the same going the other way, cohesion is lost and within minutes you'll find yourself 15 miles apart and surrounded and maybe evading the next missile shot Survival is you focus then, not helping sort the airspace for your wingman.I know about hard locking and buddy spike replies. I use this too. My question mostly stemmed from thinking about how am I going to sort this if I cannot make a declare call? Of course we worked this out shortly after with a method to announce intention, but at it's root allows all pilots to use these AWACS calls, negating the reason for my question in the first place. I haven't used the TGP for aircraft identification, and it seems this might be more common than I realized. I doubt however it's real-world, or at least I've never seen mention of this in anything I've read, and seems to be a Falcon 4 sort of work around for the other identification tools we are missing. But I should start to use it to fill the gap. Maybe it is real world and I'm just not up to date.

I want us to fly an Ace classic Iron Fortress, so everyone can see I have a point smile It truly can be every man for himself, and it can happen very quickly. Standard procedures work well when you are in control of the situation. But I've flown enough to realize that you cannot always be in control. You will find yourself beset on all sides sooner or later and it's crucial that you can separate the good guys from the bad, and quickly, or you're going to get shot down.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387145 - 10/28/17 11:47 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: nadal]  
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Originally Posted by nadal
Originally Posted by DBond
If I have someone locked up and the lead has another locked up, is the lead supposed to drop his lock, to acquire mine so that I know if I can fire?



In your case, thing should have been pre-briefed so once 2 or 1 confirmed they have locked same target 2 or 1 change target as briefed.
Detail Lead/Wingman sorting procedure including brevities is in AFTTP.



Thanks for your input but this example is when two different targets are locked, and one of the guys cannot use declare. This subject has taken on a life of it's own and I feel I'm having trouble making myself understood. We now have a method that is effective, and I think we should move on to another subject.

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Last edited by DBond; 10/29/17 01:00 AM.

No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387146 - 10/29/17 01:02 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Jason Schneider
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Lockheed advertises A2A capabilities of it's targeting pods. So yes, this is used in RL and I recommend it! TGP is slaved to the radar, and when a target is locked up goes into point track mode. You can start to make out features on the screen at around 25 miles or so. I use it quite a bit with my FCR on the LMFD and the TGP on the RMFD.


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#4387148 - 10/29/17 01:19 AM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I need to start using it, yes. It's easy to DMS over and toggle from HSD to TGP and back. Thanks.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387234 - 10/29/17 07:09 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
20 jets both Blue and Red, that's the point. Mixed airspace.

Over how big an area?


Originally Posted by DBond
OK, all this is fine advice, but the question was not about tactics, or how to fly combat. I was asking how a wingman sorts dense mixed airspace if the lead is the only one making picture and declare calls.

Pass on that one. I'm not a big fan of babysitting wingman AI frown


Originally Posted by DBond
So in these situations, when the flight lead is evading a missile shot and going one way, and the wingman is doing the same going the other way, cohesion is lost and within minutes you'll find yourself 15 miles apart and surrounded and maybe evading the next missile shot Survival is you focus then, not helping sort the airspace for your wingman.I know about hard locking and buddy spike replies. I use this too. My question mostly stemmed from thinking about how am I going to sort this if I cannot make a declare call? Of course we worked this out shortly after with a method to announce intention, but at it's root allows all pilots to use these AWACS calls, negating the reason for my question in the first place. I haven't used the TGP for aircraft identification, and it seems this might be more common than I realized. I doubt however it's real-world, or at least I've never seen mention of this in anything I've read, and seems to be a Falcon 4 sort of work around for the other identification tools we are missing. But I should start to use it to fill the gap. Maybe it is real world and I'm just not up to date.

I think you should re-frame your example situation to make it clearer. I think you've just thrown out a hypothetical and did not expect it to be dissected smile Don't take any offense to our replies, I like talking tactics and nothing against you at all. The Falcon Gods well know that "talking" tactics is one thing, doing it is another!! Hehehehe... and keeping up SA... wow....

So in your new example, Lead and #2 are both evasive, get separated, what next?

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles and are no longer under threat, then the next step is to rejoin Lead and #2, build up SA, then either rejoin the fight or continue on with their original mission, whatever that may be.

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles but both are still under threat, then continue on defensive and bugging out seems to be the wisest choice. If there is time or opportunity, they should work towards going in the same general direction so they can either shake off one or both bandits off their tail.

Assuming they've both trashed their missiles but one of them is still under threat, then the free aircraft should come in to support the other guy. In this scenario, there won't be a need to call AWACS as you will clearly see who is running after your buddy.

I think what's important to remember here is that AWACS is only really useful to building up a picture of the situation and to confirm target ID in BVR. The flight then sorts out targets and engages. You don't contact AWACS for each and every target you lock on and when in a furball (ie, WVR), I don't think real-life AWACS can sort out which is which in a rolling, tumbling mess of radar contacts. Also, once WVR, you have the MK II Eyeball and TGP which is quicker than making a call to AWACS.

Also ---- TGP!! Never leave home without one. I learned this in DCS A10C and had it reinforced in Falcon BMS. Even on A-A missions, bring a TGP!



Originally Posted by schnidrman
This is the hardest thing to learn as a sim pilot. You have to consider your mission priorities and treat the situation as real if you want to survive and not kill friendlies. If I am ingress to target, I am usually doing my damnedest to try to avoid enemy air contacts.

I like to fly taking risks I would imagine RL pilots taking. Sure, it would be fun to jump in a furball and see if you can come out alive, and I'd do that in TEs or IAs, but not in a campaign. I try to make every airframe count. In the 20-jet scenario, not all of those are a direct threat to the player as the other Blue forces in the area is keeping those Red forces busy. If my mission were not to deal with them, then I would see if I can sneak by and do my task. If my mission was to deal with enemy aircraft, I would try to find which ones were easier or more likely to pick off. No sense in firing 6 slammers for only 2 air superiority enemy fighter kills.... I'd rather fire 6 missiles for 6 kills, even if some of those are bombers.


- Ice
#4387241 - 10/29/17 07:49 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Sorry Ice, I appreciate your interest and input, but I'm not interested in correcting misunderstandings any longer. I said the range was slammer range, and I am the wingman, not the AI. I've moved on, but I do sincerely appreciate the attempt to help.

Anyway, Schnidrman has just made the single most important discovery in the history of BMS, and I must share! But I will give him a little while to add it the campaign thread if he is so inclined.


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387242 - 10/29/17 07:54 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Share away, not sure what thread you want it in, so I'll let you take it from here.


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#4387243 - 10/29/17 07:58 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387245 - 10/29/17 08:02 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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schnidrman Offline
Jason Schneider
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Okay, I just copied and pasted to that thread.


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#4387394 - 10/30/17 05:47 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
Sorry Ice, I appreciate your interest and input, but I'm not interested in correcting misunderstandings any longer. I said the range was slammer range, and I am the wingman, not the AI. I've moved on, but I do sincerely appreciate the attempt to help.

No worries smile

Since I'm not flying much (at least not BMS!), all I can really do is talk tactics.... frown


- Ice
#4387398 - 10/30/17 06:01 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Well, I always appreciate your input, you know your stuff, no doubt. And I also appreciate you taking it the right way. Cheers mate, brilliant. smile


No, now go away or I shall taunt you a second time!
#4387399 - 10/30/17 06:08 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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I really like it when things go "according to plan" in the game, which as you know is not very often biggrin Talking about it just brings it to the front of my mind and thus hopefully will be more "automatic" once in the game. As for knowing stuff, I probably know how to fly, but you sure know way more than I do regarding Falcon.


- Ice
#4387592 - 10/31/17 08:52 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Tazz Offline
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Originally Posted by DBond
I need to start using it, yes. It's easy to DMS over and toggle from HSD to TGP and back. Thanks.


Even in 4.32.7 I never leave on a Sweep mission without a TGP - it works very well in A2A mode, though it does remind me a bit of F-19 Stealth Fighter smile

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Remember this? smile

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As I've just purchased a Cougar, I can finally switch over to 4.33.3 and join the MP circus again. smile

Last edited by Tazz; 10/31/17 08:53 PM.
#4387630 - 10/31/17 11:44 PM Re: F4 MP [Re: DBond]  
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Wasn't there a way to be able to get the TGP onto the target without bugging it with your radar first? Kinda like a stealth kill....


- Ice
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