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#4383274 - 10/05/17 01:07 PM Re: Flight simulations poll ***** [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Thanks for all of the responses so far. This thread has been a great read. smile


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
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#4383281 - 10/05/17 01:27 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Yeah Pm good to see M8's still enjoying the fly but seems we are an older lot and I fear the hobby is dying out but hell at least we have enjoyed hours of release from "The surly bonds of Earth" and allowed our souls to fly free


Russ
Semper Fi
#4383286 - 10/05/17 01:36 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: rwatson]  
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Originally Posted by rwatson
Yeah Pm good to see M8's still enjoying the fly but seems we are an older lot and I fear the hobby is dying out



PC flight sims are in the same situation as other forms of entertainment like opera. By logical extension, if you are not getting younger fans to replace the old fans who are dying out then that form of entertainment will eventually cease to exist.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4383289 - 10/05/17 01:52 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Spot on there PM tried to get the grand kids interested in simming a lost cause there but hell we enjoy our toys and they don't know what they are missing and it will die out but we had a good ride


Russ
Semper Fi
#4383301 - 10/05/17 02:34 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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How much blame can we lay on the games developers? If a game is too simple/arcadey it's ridiculed.If it's too complicated there are cries of 'the rivet-counters are ruining the genre'. I feel that the devs can't really win.


23 June 2016
#4383302 - 10/05/17 02:34 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Excellent thread Panzer..I'm really enjoying reading what people are flying.

I fly WOFF UE at least a couple of times a week..I also have ROF on steam but uninstalled a while back.

Il2 1946 with B.A.T a unbelievable mod it really does take IL to a new level.

Battle of Britain II installed but haven't flown for a while.

Falcon BMS but I just find it to difficult to do anything...I really wish I had the patience and mindset to get to grips with this ( I'm easily bored) biggrin

Same with DCS A10 and Black shark.

P3d with Orbx for my civilian flying fix thumbsup


"Vis unita fortior"

"United Strength is Stronger"
#4383303 - 10/05/17 02:40 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: Chucky]  
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Originally Posted by Chucky
How much blame can we lay on the games developers? If a game is too simple/arcadey it's ridiculed.If it's too complicated there are cries of 'the rivet-counters are ruining the genre'. I feel that the devs can't really win.



That's an excellent point Chucky. I will flat out say that I would not have the patience to be a PC flight sim developer. It's very much a "damned if you, damned if you don't" situation.


“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4383322 - 10/05/17 04:47 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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I've said before that I think the early flight sims gave the impression of being realistic and complicated without being too realistic and complicated. I believe a lot of simmers at the time felt like they were getting a similar experience to reality, and always wanted to get as close the the real thing as possible to feel like they were really capable of flying a mission, but didn't really know what they were asking for.

Once it got to the point where the complicated nature could be better simulated, they had to either commit to learning it or admit they didn't really want all of the accuracy. I think in many cases they didn't want to do either, so they stopped playing them - not willing to put in the effort but too proud to say they wanted a simpler sim because they couldn't handle it or didn't enjoy it since that's what they'd been asking for over the years. I think that might have contributed to the fading of the genre.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4383329 - 10/05/17 05:06 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: Arthonon]  
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Originally Posted by Arthonon
I've said before that I think the early flight sims gave the impression of being realistic and complicated without being too realistic and complicated. I believe a lot of simmers at the time felt like they were getting a similar experience to reality, and always wanted to get as close the the real thing as possible to feel like they were really capable of flying a mission, but didn't really know what they were asking for.



Early flight sims were short on graphics but long on "soul". Developers couldn't make the aircraft look exactly like the real thing down to the last rivet but they could create interesting missions, campaigns, storylines. And that is what is missing today in many cases.


“If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” - 2 Chronicles 7:14
#4383331 - 10/05/17 05:13 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Definitely Option #1 for me.

I have RoF, BoS, FSX, DCS, Falcon BMS, WOFF, CLOD.

ROF: I fly this, just about daily, both in SP and MP
FSX: I fly this regularly, in lieu of RL flying (which I don't get to do anymore sigh). I fly it standalone, and also several times a month on VATsim
WOFF: Just got it a couple weeks ago (Thanks Jarvis!), but for me, it really doesn't hold a candle to RoF, so its days are probably numbered. I'm dabbling with it for now, cause it was a gift, and it's "teh new shiny" winkngrin , but every time I start it up, I keep finding myself thinking "this ain't RoF"...
BOS: I don't fly it at all (0 interest in that theatre / timeframe). Haven't even patched it, in over a year. I only keep it because we run a server (at New Wings), so I feel I should support it -- a bit.
CLOD:
Have it, flew it a few times, but I'm not really a Steam guy, so it (and Steam) never got reinstalled when I got my newest PC
DCS: I have a few of the modules, and mostly flew the Sabre. I'd like to get into this one more, but haven't scrounged up the time to really dig into it as much as it requires.
BMS: This is another one I really want to get more time into. I did some initial flying in it on the 4.32 version, and haven't moved to the 4.33 version yet -- again, looking for the time to dig into this one.

I also dredged up Stealth Fighter and X-Wing Collector's Edition from GoG awhile back (had thousands of hours in those back in the day), and I've started re-acquainting myself with X-Wing, although both of these are destined to be "occasional" flights when I get bored, or nostalgic. biggrin


Cheers,
4 <S!>

#4383333 - 10/05/17 05:27 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4



Early flight sims were short on graphics but long on "soul". Developers couldn't make the aircraft look exactly like the real thing down to the last rivet but they could create interesting missions, campaigns, storylines. And that is what is missing today in many cases.



Ah yes, the ever elusive "immersion" factor. I largely agree with you and I remember certain flight sims like Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe where the flight models were not very realistic but the immersion factor was there thanks to the campaign/strategic mode where you could manage the US 8th USAAF bombing campaign or you could play on the German side and manage the Luftwaffe airfields and flak defenses to protect vital industries.

To put it in its simplest terms, a flight sim should offer just as much to the player outside of the cockpit as it does inside the cockpit.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 10/05/17 05:28 PM.

“Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.”
#4383334 - 10/05/17 05:28 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: F4UDash4]  
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Originally Posted by F4UDash4
Originally Posted by Arthonon
I've said before that I think the early flight sims gave the impression of being realistic and complicated without being too realistic and complicated. I believe a lot of simmers at the time felt like they were getting a similar experience to reality, and always wanted to get as close the the real thing as possible to feel like they were really capable of flying a mission, but didn't really know what they were asking for.



Early flight sims were short on graphics but long on "soul". Developers couldn't make the aircraft look exactly like the real thing down to the last rivet but they could create interesting missions, campaigns, storylines. And that is what is missing today in many cases.

I agree 100% - they focused on meeting that technical aspect but lost sight of the fun aspect. I also think that ties into the complexity, though, as it is probably more difficult to make an interesting mission that you can complete in a reasonable amount of time when you have to wait 2 minutes for your Mavericks to warm up. I think that in reality, when you're really up there and managing the aircraft, there's enough going on for time to pass quickly, but in a sim, sitting in your house, it starts to feel a little forced and takes away from the fun-factor.


Ken Cartwright

No single drop of rain feels it is responsible for the flood.

http://www.techflyer.net

#4383349 - 10/05/17 06:51 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Arthenon speaketh the truth.

I'm not sure are fight sims any more 'niche' than they were 20 years ago though.
I've never known anyone in RL being the least interested in them. Generally, it's been WoW or Console stuff that people talk about in the pub...if gaming if discussed at all.

#4383364 - 10/05/17 07:34 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: mikew]  
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Originally Posted by mikew
Arthenon speaketh the truth.




Indeed he does. I was fully engrossed in things like Tornado/F-14 Fleet Defender/F-15,totally committed to them in fact.Then along came something that looked better and I moved on to that and so on and so on and before I know it I'm on DCS and thinking 'this is boring'. What happened to gameplay? Unfortunately I can't go back,retro gaming isn't for me. I have tried.


23 June 2016
#4383369 - 10/05/17 08:00 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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I agree. Technical strength is OK. But enjoyable and engaging play experiences are key, for me.


WARNING: This post contains opinions produced in a facility which also occasionally processes fact products.
#4383372 - 10/05/17 08:24 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Over the past couple of years, it's been a mix of DCS and P3D with a little CLoD and BMS mixed in. Lately it's only been BMS, fire fighting in P3D, or some CLoD dogfights. But I rarely play; most of my free time is playing guitar, spending time with kids and the wife, or spacing out and letting my brain take a break while I watch netflix and throw back a few.

Last edited by malibu43; 10/05/17 08:24 PM.

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#4383374 - 10/05/17 08:29 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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I have one flight sim installed and its the only one I've flown since 2009, BMS. I used to fly lots of 'em, helos, props, jets. Only BMS gets it done for me these days.

Quote
Arthenon speaketh the truth.


I have to respectfully disagree. I think the nostaglia-glasses effect is strong. I never played some games that people remember fondly, such as SWOTL, but I've flown most flight sims.

Sitting here thinking about it I pulled two popular titles out of the air and thought about it. EAW and Longbow 2. I played these sims alot. And loved it. But thinking about the missions now, what was it about them that made them so fun? In EAW you took off, probably hit X or whatever it was to warp to the action, got involved in a dogfight for 10 minutes and flew (or warped) home.

In Longbow 2 there were like 8 mission types that you would do over and over. No, I see it like this.

One, it was all new. Had you ever been part of a 40-plane furball before you flew EAW? Probably not. It was awesome. Had you ever ripple-fired Hellfires before Longbow? (Well technically I had in DI's Apache, but you get the point) It was all new, and exciting and we ate it up. But over time the novelty loses it's impact. And so we need more to keep us enthralled. Who among us didn't absolutely love the opening video in Longbow 2? Or when that video ended and you saw the 'base' on the screen. How cool! Now?, That stuff would warrant a yawn and an 'is that all there is?'

The effect, I think, is similar to what psychologists call sensory adaptation. It's like when you first go outside in cold weather, you feel freezing. But the longer you're exposed to it the less freezing it feels. Same with loud noises. Jarring at first, but continued exposure mitigates the effect.

Second, I think, is an erosion of imagination. Before computers came along, if you grew up before then, you were forced to use your imagination. When I was a kid, I had a stick. That stick could be a gun, a fishing rod, a sword, a bat or whatever I imagined it to be. It was sort of a necessary thing. As computer games have evolved they have become so sophisticated that imagination really isn't required.

I don't expect my viewpoint to be well received, but I think we remember the old games fondly because we loved them, not because they were superior to what we have today. There's a bit of the been there done that vibe to the whole affair. This isn't to say that developers couldn't do more to make their games interesting and fun. But I have to disagree with the assertion that the old games were so much better.





Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4383378 - 10/05/17 08:57 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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DBond, I understand what you mean by nostalgia is a strong effect. RB3D was my first sim, and I never really enjoy a sim like this title. I was young, 15yo, and my young mind allowed me to have a really strong immersion. That is obviously not the case anymore. I play WOFF from time to time, we can't objectively say that this sim is less good than RB3D, even in term of immersion. But no, in my remembers, I took much more pleasure on RB3D, maybe I'm wrong, but this is my feelings.

#4383379 - 10/05/17 09:01 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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I can remember a time when I flew flight sims every day, for hours. Rowans Flying Corps, absolutely loved that game, then EAW, then spent a decade playing il2 online with a squad, which fell apart when CLoD launched. Got into RoF, spent a load of money of dlc, but uninstalled it a few years ago when it became abandonware. Bought DCS, and a few modules, but it's never really grabbed me TBH. I had a year off from gaming, and now just have DCS and CLoD installed, which I play once a week for couple of hours, more for old times sake. I keep looking at the BoX series, but then think 'whats the point?'
I think the magic has gone.

#4383380 - 10/05/17 09:07 PM Re: Flight simulations poll [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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DBond, I certainly can't speak for everyone, nor would I try, but for me, I think it is complexity, although I would like to be able to dedicate enough time to dig into the serious sims.

My example of the Mavericks is from BMS 4.32, where you had to go through a few pages, power up the Mavs, remove the cover, etc., and I'm sure it's all realistic, but it took some of the fun out of it for me. I'm guessing that once I had it down, it wouldn't be an issue, but it was a barrier to entry.

Compare that to the A-10A in DCS, where you press a button to go to A-G mode, another to choose Mavericks, and then go to town. If it were nostalgia only, I wouldn't be playing FC3 more than BMS, as they're both from the same generation. And I'm also playing A-10A more than DCS A-10C, so again, it's not about nostalgia, or even a certain environment for me, it's complexity.


Ken Cartwright

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http://www.techflyer.net

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