#4373245 - 08/08/17 04:26 AM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: Zamzow]
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Crane Hunter
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In gun terms I offer no debate - I've shot a few guns, but I know jack in general about guns (but more than your average non gun owner).
But comparing "toughness" between a bear and a dog???
A black bear "cub" at 200 pounds can rip a car door right off - a closed car door.
Not even an English Mastiff would have a chance against even a small bear! Maybe if there were several (dogs are pack hunters, nip, nip, chase, chase, wear the prey down), but a BEAR???
There's really only a few land animals on Earth stronger than a bear - elephants, rhinos, hippos, maybe some cattle and big felines MIGHT stack up, I guess a giraffe could kick the snot out of a bear too.....
But even in these fictional confrontations - I wouldn't be betting too heavily against a bear.....
It seems surprising given their size and strength, but for they're just not particularly resistant to pain or damage, not like grizzlies who can sometimes keep going for a bit even after multiple hits from extremely powerful rifle calibers like .375 H&H or .458 Winchester.
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#4373324 - 08/08/17 05:27 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: Crane Hunter]
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Master
meh
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meh
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.308 is definately on the light side for big bears, especially grizzly.
Most of the Alaskan and B.C. outdoors guys recommend at least .338 in a bolt gun, or .45-70 in a lever. The Siberian taiga guys OTOH regularly fend off big bears using only 7.62x39 FMJ, but that's a quick mag dump out of an SKS and not the one or two shots max you're going to get off with a manually operated gun if a bear charges you at close range. Lots of people say this but in truth unless you are shooting 20mm everything is on the light side for big bears. The trick is to shoot them in the proper location and if you do that you can kill them with 22LR just as easily as with .44mag.
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#4373335 - 08/08/17 06:17 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: VF9_Longbow]
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Joined: Oct 1999
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Haggart
I Fought Diablo
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I Fought Diablo
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The Lone Star State
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I would not want the option of having anything that required ammunition but instead would choose a few knives, hatchet, small tree saw, small nets, traps, etc which would not make me dependent on a supply of ammunition to keep me from starving
"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
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#4373336 - 08/08/17 06:19 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: VF9_Longbow]
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Dart
Measured in Llamathrusts
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Measured in Llamathrusts
Lifer
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Posts: 24,712
Alabaster, AL USA
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Crane, that's because you live in Canada. Canadian bears know they are in Canada and surrounded by Canadians, and therefore have certain rights to press. American bears know that Americans are crazy nutters with guns who like to shoot things, and therefore are much more leery. In the wild, even if bears - especially - if bears have been near people, they keep their distance. They'll take note of one, though, and you can bet that when you move campsite they'll check it out pretty quickly for scraps. In wilderness areas people know not to mess with bears or do dumb stuff like feed them or try to engage. It's really odd, but go back in the bush and it's like every bit of nature immediately tags a human as a predator, and an apex one. While all bears are omnivores, most of their diet is from flora, not fauna. It's mostly roots, berries, nuts, and insects. Yes, I consider grubs and ants to be something other than animals in a survival context, as they're in the "gather" category. Grizzlys will hunt - but only during the Spring when they look for newborns, and for fish during spawning - with the rest of the time being scavengers. They look for the path of least resistance for food. This is why bears can be trouble in cities and towns that border their territories. Why dig up roots when food is just a flip of a dumpster's lid away? Plus people are just damned stupid and feed bears, thinking that bears are something other than bears, with the idea that they are animals and not just people in a different form somehow forgotten.
The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events. More dumb stuff at http://www.darts-page.comFrom Laser: "The forum is the place where combat (real time) flight simulator fans come to play turn based strategy combat."
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#4373339 - 08/08/17 06:42 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: VF9_Longbow]
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,785
Wallimiyama
Senior Member
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Senior Member
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 2,785
Just south of the North Pole (...
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12 gage pump. I've got a Winchester 1897...it was good enough for trench warfare in WWI...good for brush warfare in WWII...mine's been shot thousands of times and is still in good working order. I'd put it up against anything in the lower 48...two-legged or four-legged...
Last edited by Wallimiyama; 08/08/17 06:43 PM. Reason: fat fingers
Wally -Are we havin' fun yet?
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#4373344 - 08/08/17 07:10 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: VF9_Longbow]
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 22,854
Rick.50cal
Lifer
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Lifer
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I'm surprised at the 22cal suggestions - it would be very useful for small game hunting, that's for sure, but the firing mechanisms are a lot less robust and prone to breakage. And if you've got a grizzly bear starting towards you I wouldn't want to be stuck with that..!
How are .22LR "firing mechanisms a LOT LESS ROBUST, prone to breakage"??? Sure, if you buy low quality junk, maybe that's true... but a GOOD rimfire will perform as good or better than many centerfires. Ruger's 10/22 got a very good reputation, early on, which is why it's so common today, and there are aftermarket parts to build one in pretty much any config you want. I've NEVER heard anyone describe it as "prone to breakage". But by all means, if your experience with .22's says otherwise, please share! That's my point though, even if it's only a spring that needs replacing, if you're stuck out in the Alaskan wilderness I don't think you're going to find many springs. At least with a simple break barrel you can still whack the firing pin even if any small trigger parts fail eventually.
Ok but you never answered my original question: what IS the survival situation you were describing? Now you talk about Alaska wilderness. Ok. So we know the location now... but what is the scenario? Are you just lost in the wilderness for 3 days, awaiting pickup by bush plane? Boat sank, on a shoreline somewhere in the Aleutians, need shelter food and a gun that can drop even the biggest Kodiak? Zombie deer apocalypse? TEOTWAWKI ? And why don't you have basic spare parts? Shotgun shells are heavy but IMO the firepower and the ability to use many different kinds of ammunition make it worth it. You can take out 2 or 3 birds in a flock with a single birdshot shell, but it'd be difficult to hit even one in flight with an AR IMO. And if you're freezing cold I think you're probably more likely to hit small game with birdshot than you are trying to hit it with a normal rifle.
"Firepower" is... variable from shotguns. Remember Dick Cheney's "hunting accident"? The guy he shot was never in danger of dying...so keep that in mind. THREE birds from one shot?!?!!? That is HIGHLY unlikely. Sure, it COULD happen, I suppose. But that's too rare to be a valid reason in a survival situation. Do you even have the skills to use a shotgun that well? I've probably busted 10,000 clays in my life, and have never got two clays from a single shot fired. Ultimately your survival gun depends on you actually having it before it's needed. The best survival gun in the world is useless if the closest one is sitting in a gunshop on a different continent! Are you familiar with the Canadian Rangers? In short, these are Inuit people, the northern natives whom we used to call "Eskimos", who have volunteered to serve Canadian security and defense in the Canadian Armed Forces. These are not soldiers in the traditional sense. They are locals who know the region, know the weather, know everything there is to know about their lands. They monitor for activity that's out of the ordinary, people or enemy soldiers who are up to no good, and report it to headquarters. They are not expected to engage the enemy, but rather to observe and exfiltrate to safety, then possibly lead the soldiers to the enemy and advise us on the terrain and weather, along with details about the enemy. I think the biggest threats to their lives are probably the weather when it turns bad, falling through ice into the water, followed distantly by starving polar bears, and little else. Well, these volunteers have been making do with WW2 vintage Lee Enfield .303British rifles. These have worked very well for them for a very long time. Only last year did the military decide that it was finally time to retire those old rifles... as good as they were, finding parts on that scale was becoming quite difficult, costly and far from efficient. The replacement is a Tikka T3 Arctic in .308Win (to be able to use commercial and 7.62 NATO military ammo), which is a special version specified by the Canadian Forces. I had a good look in person a few months ago, a Calgary gun shop had one for sale for I think around $2500cad. Detacheable box magazine, medium weight barrel to have good multi-shot accuracy but not weigh a ton, Piccatinni rail for optics, a good set of fully adjustable iron sights with rear peep (I think there were multiple apertures but memory is hazy). Nice laminated stock. Neither a featherweight nor a weightlifter's dream... just a good weight for a all-round multipurpose bolt-action rifle. In some ways it is like very high end, improved version of the Ruger Scout rifle, though the sight rail is not in the "Scout" configuration. Well I liked it, liked everything about it, but the pricetag is too rich for my wallet at this time! BUT, this or the Enfield .303 would be a good choice for general purpose arctic survival. But again, it depends on the scenario you are envisioning.
POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
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#4373351 - 08/08/17 07:36 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: Rick.50cal]
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Joined: Apr 2015
Posts: 13,734
F4UDash4
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SC
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THREE birds from one shot?!?!!? That is HIGHLY unlikely. Sure, it COULD happen, I suppose. But that's too rare to be a valid reason in a survival situation. Do you even have the skills to use a shotgun that well? I've probably busted 10,000 clays in my life, and have never got two clays from a single shot fired. . Clays don't fly in dense formations like birds sometimes do. My personal best record is 14 blackbirds with one shot. From a 20 gauge.
"In the vast library of socialist books, there’s not a single volume on how to create wealth, only how to take and “redistribute” it.” - David Horowitz
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#4373395 - 08/08/17 11:17 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: Dart]
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Crane Hunter
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Crane, that's because you live in Canada. Canadian bears know they are in Canada and surrounded by Canadians, and therefore have certain rights to press. American bears know that Americans are crazy nutters with guns who like to shoot things, and therefore are much more leery. In the wild, even if bears - especially - if bears have been near people, they keep their distance. They'll take note of one, though, and you can bet that when you move campsite they'll check it out pretty quickly for scraps. In wilderness areas people know not to mess with bears or do dumb stuff like feed them or try to engage. It's really odd, but go back in the bush and it's like every bit of nature immediately tags a human as a predator, and an apex one. While all bears are omnivores, most of their diet is from flora, not fauna. It's mostly roots, berries, nuts, and insects. Yes, I consider grubs and ants to be something other than animals in a survival context, as they're in the "gather" category. Grizzlys will hunt - but only during the Spring when they look for newborns, and for fish during spawning - with the rest of the time being scavengers. They look for the path of least resistance for food. This is why bears can be trouble in cities and towns that border their territories. Why dig up roots when food is just a flip of a dumpster's lid away? Plus people are just damned stupid and feed bears, thinking that bears are something other than bears, with the idea that they are animals and not just people in a different form somehow forgotten. It might also be because, outside of Alaska, you guys have comparatively few big bears as well as the kind of dense complex wilderness terrain where you can encounter them suddenly at an unsafe distance. Out in the boonies at least, folks here in B.C. will shoot at stuff as quick as anyone.
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#4373442 - 08/09/17 05:09 AM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: F4UDash4]
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Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 22,854
Rick.50cal
Lifer
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Lifer
Joined: Oct 1999
Posts: 22,854
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THREE birds from one shot?!?!!? That is HIGHLY unlikely. Sure, it COULD happen, I suppose. But that's too rare to be a valid reason in a survival situation. Do you even have the skills to use a shotgun that well? I've probably busted 10,000 clays in my life, and have never got two clays from a single shot fired. . Clays don't fly in dense formations like birds sometimes do. My personal best record is 14 blackbirds with one shot. From a 20 gauge. Ok fair enough, but would you count on that happening in a survival situation?
POLITICS, WAR, ECONOMY, CONTROVERSY! and other heated discussions and debates in the PWEC sub-forum at the bottom of this forum main page. See you there!
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#4373520 - 08/09/17 03:03 PM
Re: You're in the wilderness alone with no chance of rescue - what gun and ammunition would you choose?
[Re: Rick.50cal]
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 5,555
VF9_Longbow
Hotshot
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Hotshot
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Posts: 5,555
Tokyo, Japan
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THREE birds from one shot?!?!!? That is HIGHLY unlikely. Sure, it COULD happen, I suppose. But that's too rare to be a valid reason in a survival situation. Do you even have the skills to use a shotgun that well? I've probably busted 10,000 clays in my life, and have never got two clays from a single shot fired. . Clays don't fly in dense formations like birds sometimes do. My personal best record is 14 blackbirds with one shot. From a 20 gauge. Ok fair enough, but would you count on that happening in a survival situation? common enough, i've taken out 3 ducks at once while they were flying in a flock with 12gau birdshot. the angle of the shot is the most important thing, at a raking angle it has a decent chance of taking out a bunch of them at once. doesn't need to kill them, just a nick in the wing bone is enough to make dinner.
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