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#4368690 - 07/11/17 08:53 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: XIII]  
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Originally Posted by blackshark
I can not stand anymore and see how one kid will destroy this forum,

he not played this game for years, its only fun is smash EVERY thread.100% troll. Irritating child.
Please do something with him. Criticism dcs is ok ,But what the kid does is unacceptable.
With respect, greetings

With respect, blackshark, I wonder why you say I "will destroy this forum"? How is it "unacceptable"?

Is what I am saying about DCS or, as in this discussion, real world tactics wrong? If so, then it should be very easy to post counter-arguments. However, if the issue is the truth being a threat to the fragile illusions that people hold around themselves, well, I'm sure there's some place out there where others like themselves congregate. If I am wrong, then I would love others to come forth and prove it to me. Note that I say "I would LOVE," because that means I am getting better because something that is wrong in my thought process has been set right.

As for playing the game in years... do you have to step in dog poo again and again in order to remind yourself NOT to step on dog poo? Is your authority dependent on when you've last stepped on dog poo?

As Force10 has said, you are free to counter my arguments and as I said above, I welcome it. Personal sniping only means you've no argument to put forth and instead are throwing your toys out of the pram and starting a tantrum. Good luck!


Originally Posted by blackshark
Understand . Your choice.As far as I can see Ice has a way of living to annoy people,This has nothing to do with criticism.

I do not like dcs for many things.But this forum can not be read by one person.Last post here , best regards

Hahahahaha!! You are funny. I just took apart a video citing precise timestamps.... how is that not criticism?
If you get annoyed with being wrong, that's on you, bud. Good luck over on the ED forums!


Originally Posted by blackshark
Ice has a way of living to annoy people

Blind man and the elephant all over again.


- Ice
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4368733 - 07/12/17 12:46 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: - Ice]  
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What tantrum Ice? Or is that a personal snipe, which according to you would suggest you have no argument to put forth



#4368735 - 07/12/17 12:51 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
What tantrum Ice? Or is that a personal snipe, which according to you would suggest you have no argument to put forth

Ah yes... of course... I sniped him as well and as you can read above, I had absolutely no argument put forth on anything, just a personal snipe... biggrin
Let's just pick and choose which parts of a post to read, then, shall we?


- Ice
#4368740 - 07/12/17 01:05 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: Stratos]  
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Originally Posted by Stratos
Originally Posted by Krazyscotsman
Interesting topic about IFF. When you are talking IFF, the first point is what mode? The mode dictates what type of information is available for establishing whether a contact is friendly, hostile, or unknown. I will tell you, only in very limited circumstances is IFF used for engagement. The military always tries to use different sensors before engaging targets. There's been too many friendly fire accidents that have been the result of IFF failures. Think about it this way, what happens if you have an environment heavy with radar and jamming, do you really want to shoot a potentially hostile aircraft when it could be the aircraft isn't capable of different IFF modes or if their IFF transponder isn't functioning. This has happened. As pointed out some of this topic is classified, but it's not rocket science if you really think about the topic.


I feel less guilty now for asking AWACS to indetify a contact in BMS. Thanks a lot!


Glad to help rid yourself of the guilt smile

#4368744 - 07/12/17 01:17 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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I know this isn't necessarily an IFF discussion. But I thought it might be interesting to share what is happening in the long run with engaging air targets. We all know of AWACS and there's been the lengthy discussion of IFF. Going forward, the USA and some other countries are moving towards any sensor - any shooter philosophy. One of the programs I have been working since the start is Integrated Battle Command System (IBCS). This system will take in the future any sensor (aircraft, ship, aerostat, and ground based sensors) and determine what the best engagement system to use in the form of Air Defense Operations Center (ADOC). The goal is to maximize the capability of the sensors to show a total air picture and determine what engagement system to use. I have been working on the Patriot and JLENS side of the of things with (cybersecurity) Northrop Grumman. NG is developing IBCS via Integrated Air Missile Defense (IAMD). At some point if all goes well, you will have a surveillance radar pick up an aircraft, JLENS' engagement radar (JLENS has 2 different radars - I designed the networking for JLENS) maintain tracking (lock the target), and have an F-22 engage or a Patriot launcher engage or a SLAMRAAM (SAM version of AIM-120) or THAAD. I specifically said Patriot launcher because Patriot is no longer a combination of launcher, ECS, and radar; it can be but the concept of IBCS and radar on the net breaks Patriot into 3 distinctive pieces functioning independently of each other.

Not sure if anyone was interested, but I thought I would share.


Last edited by Krazyscotsman; 07/12/17 01:21 AM.
#4368767 - 07/12/17 08:16 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: Krazyscotsman]  
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Originally Posted by Krazyscotsman
Originally Posted by Stratos
I feel less guilty now for asking AWACS to indetify a contact in BMS. Thanks a lot!

Glad to help rid yourself of the guilt smile

Isn't that one of the primary functions of AWACS? So why feel guilty when you're asking them to do their job? Why feel guilty if it keeps you alive? smile On the other hand, some people just spam "Declare!" calls like the airspace is all about them.... biggrin

Originally Posted by Krazyscotsman
Not sure if anyone was interested, but I thought I would share.

Thanks for sharing! Always cool to hear from somebody "on the inside," so thank you for your info! I do find it interesting about the F-22/F-35 and how it's supposed to kill things BVR and dogfighting is a thing of the past... but then I think about the Vietnam war where things were supposed to be all about missiles but then the F4s were forced to VID their targets and thus dogfighting was still done. I guess we will see.... but whether this new tech gets tested in a real war or not, I'm excited about having these new toys in some form in a combat flight simulation.


- Ice
#4368780 - 07/12/17 10:51 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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But BVR in Vietnam was Aim7E Sparrow, a for the time pretty new thing.
AIM-120C-7 and 15 brazillion other sensors of today should be able to improve the ID situation from 1960-late.
Or as you say, spam "Declare" like DBond smile
(rumors say DBond has no Q nor 2 key readable on the keyboard!)

#4368783 - 07/12/17 11:10 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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True, true, but then again, while there are advancements in missile and sensor technology, I'm sure everything else has also had improvements so this new AIM-120 and a bazillion other sensors may just be "zeroed out" in light of other improvements such as stealth, and then we're back where we started.

I've only flown with DBond a few times... so no comment!! biggrin biggrin biggrin


- Ice
#4368809 - 07/12/17 01:13 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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There is no question that these forums are overrun by DCS fanboys. I don't know what that means, but I know it is not an endearing term. The failure to view DCS in an objective way, that they can do "no wrong", has been a very big problem here.

I personally think the air combat and missile behavior in BMS is far more realistic and much less sterile, at least in SP mode, although I'm not an F-16 fan, and it's free. The characteristics of the plane seem to follow what you would expect compared with other planes, although if the edges of the flight envelope are a bit rough and not fully refined.

I think the MiG-15 initially had a very high kill ratio against most likely the Sabre, so if avionics and other support is removed from the equation, you going to have a very diificult time, not simply point and shoot.

Had it not been for the graphics and the appearance of the cockpits, I probably would have spent the last 10 years playing BMS, not DCS.

U.S Ace = 8 kills. German Ace = 350 kills. Quality versus quantity. Somebody should do development, leave the mass production to somebody else.

#4368856 - 07/12/17 05:35 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: Faulkner]  
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First post! Welcome to the mad house!

Originally Posted by Faulkner
There is no question that these forums are overrun by DCS fanboys. I don't know what that means, but I know it is not an endearing term.

It **IS** the DCS sub-forum so it's only natural for them to come here. I'm not sure why others would look down on the term "fanboy." If it were "fanboi," I'd see how it's not a nice term and honestly, it fits with a few members here, but "fanboy," I see no problems with.

Originally Posted by Faulkner
The failure to view DCS in an objective way, that they can do "no wrong", has been a very big problem here.

It's not really the failure, but more like the unwillingness. They prefer to seehearspeak


- Ice
#4368866 - 07/12/17 06:43 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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If the idea is to have a more optimal result, what's the difference.

#4368904 - 07/12/17 09:20 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: Faulkner]  
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Originally Posted by Faulkner
If the idea is to have a more optimal result, what's the difference.

Sorry, you lost me there....


- Ice
#4368915 - 07/12/17 10:46 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Faulkner
If the idea is to have a more optimal result, what's the difference.

Sorry, you lost me there....

What? Ice has no comment Could this be a first?! wink

Well played Faulkner, well played.......



#4368922 - 07/12/17 11:26 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted by bisher
What? Ice has no comment Could this be a first?! wink
Well played Faulkner, well played.......

Originally Posted by bisher
is that a personal snipe, which according to you would suggest you have no argument to put forth

popcorn


- Ice
#4368928 - 07/13/17 12:07 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: *Striker*]  
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I'm sort of trying to agree with your overall sentiment Mr. ice, when you indicate that some things that come from DCS aren't fundamentally virtuous and trustworthy.

"wags" always seems to be at large.

Every DCS update: "It is now easier to purchase things through the Module Manager", or "DCS Mirage now available on Steam" (despite being a good module). Every plane flies like every other plane, or requires a really expensive stick to notice any difference. Two decades later, and I have a cupboard full of things that have propellers. Don't forget: "Screenshot contest next week, good luck to everyone", and Bonus points that can't be used for anything.

If nobody says anything, unless Eagle Dynamics has an assassination squad, no matter what the reason, nothing will ever improve or change. I don't know who's fault it is. I think it is partly the individuals in this community that are at fault. Again, I'm not a big F-16 fan, it's a bit different from the Falcon guys.

#4368930 - 07/13/17 12:32 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: Faulkner]  
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Originally Posted by Faulkner
I'm sort of trying to agree with your overall sentiment Mr. ice, when you indicate that some things that come from DCS aren't fundamentally virtuous and trustworthy.

"wags" always seems to be at large.

Every DCS update: "It is now easier to purchase things through the Module Manager", or "DCS Mirage now available on Steam" (despite being a good module). Every plane flies like every other plane, or requires a really expensive stick to notice any difference. Two decades later, and I have a cupboard full of things that have propellers. Don't forget: "Screenshot contest next week, good luck to everyone", and Bonus points that can't be used for anything.

If nobody says anything, unless Eagle Dynamics has an assassination squad, no matter what the reason, nothing will ever improve or change. I don't know who's fault it is. I think it is partly the individuals in this community that are at fault. Again, I'm not a big F-16 fan, it's a bit different from the Falcon guys.

Ow... that just felt weird in my brain when I read "Mr. ice"... smile Just "Ice" will do, and if you write "- Ice" it will be more appreciated. wink
Also, I wonder if bisher still has that "well played" sentiment after that post, Faulkner. Comedy gold right there!

You are echoing a lot of the sentiments expressed by myself and others in this forum. There are glaring holes in DCS yet they insist on fixing the things that aren't priority. PFM on the Su-33? Really? Now? How many years after FC3 got released? Were the guys who were working on that bored, but incapable of assisting on the priority projects such as 2.5 or Hornet or Nevada? After 5 years of this (more for some members!!), it just gets sad. You also hit the nail on the head re: bonus points.

Unfortunately, it seems like ED has no intention of listening.... not even to it's own polls on it's own forums. Kudos to SimHQ and moderators here for allowing a place for the "other side" to be expressed.... that way any flight simmer, whether new to the hobby or just someone who feels that something's not quite right with the Kool Aid, can come here and read and express themselves and verify their suspicions or gut feelings. Whether that pushes them away from DCS or pushes them back to DCS is not a concern of mine, but at least they now have the ability to make a more informed decision considering both good and bad points of DCS and ED.


Originally Posted by Faulkner
Don't forget: "Screenshot contest next week, good luck to everyone"

Hahahahaha!! To be fair, I did say DCS is an awesome wallpaper generator featuring combat aircraft....


- Ice
#4368962 - 07/13/17 11:52 AM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by Krazyscotsman
Originally Posted by Stratos
I feel less guilty now for asking AWACS to indetify a contact in BMS. Thanks a lot!

Glad to help rid yourself of the guilt smile

Isn't that one of the primary functions of AWACS? So why feel guilty when you're asking them to do their job? Why feel guilty if it keeps you alive? smile On the other hand, some people just spam "Declare!" calls like the airspace is all about them.... biggrin

Originally Posted by Krazyscotsman
Not sure if anyone was interested, but I thought I would share.

Thanks for sharing! Always cool to hear from somebody "on the inside," so thank you for your info! I do find it interesting about the F-22/F-35 and how it's supposed to kill things BVR and dogfighting is a thing of the past... but then I think about the Vietnam war where things were supposed to be all about missiles but then the F4s were forced to VID their targets and thus dogfighting was still done. I guess we will see.... but whether this new tech gets tested in a real war or not, I'm excited about having these new toys in some form in a combat flight simulation.


About the BVR ID subject, first of all we must understand that technology evolves and it greatly evolved since the 1970's (Vietnam) up to nowadays.
The range at where ID and killing have been taken has also being increased. For example in the past we killed with swords and spears then will killed with rudimentary rifles which while having a short range by todays standards the range is nonetheless much greater than swords or spears. Now well kill with Assault Rifles (longer range).

And the same happens with military aviation. Today we have a set of sensors that we didn't have during the Vietnam era and more importantly with the F-22/F-35, the information that all these sensors generate can be "merged" - the so called Sensor fusion" - which allows the building of a bigger picture and thus IDing a target a very long ranges. So even if you manage to jam one or another of these sensors the remaining and combined sensors can still build a "bigger picture" and thus ID the target at long ranges.
Examples of such sensors which are found on the F-22 and specially on the F-35 are:
ESM -> Detects and geolocates the enemy radar source (even if they are airborne radars)
EO/IR Sensors -> With very narrow fields of view ("Zoom") you can VID a target even if this same target is located at very long ranges. Such sensors can be cued by other sensors such as Radar, IRST or ESM. By the way, in Falcon BMS and Jane's F/A-18 I often use the FLIR to VID targets at long ranges.
Datalink -> Receiving target data directly from other aircraft (wingmen for example) or AWACS.
Radar -> Most interesting, the F-22 and F-35 have ISAR (Inverted Synthetic Aperture Radar) modes which basically draws a picture of the detected target (by the radar) and then search and compares the target image signature with a database. This is NOT the (often not reliable) old NCTR methods which scans the target aircraft air intakes/engine fan blades.

And once again, note that in aircraft like the F-35 or F-22 those sensors are all combined to generate each target/contact.

Regarding the AWACS in BMS, DCS or any other sim, what's the problem (realistic-wise) in using the "Declare" command??
Like Ice said, this is basically what AWACS do and are for...

#4368972 - 07/13/17 01:33 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
Radar -> Most interesting, the F-22 and F-35 have ISAR (Inverted Synthetic Aperture Radar) modes which basically draws a picture of the detected target (by the radar) and then search and compares the target image signature with a database. This is NOT the (often not reliable) old NCTR methods which scans the target aircraft air intakes/engine fan blades.


That NCTR method is reliable enough to allow certain fighters (ie. F-15) to include it as part of their EID chain. It has been supplemented or replaced since, but there's no ISAR involved AFAIK - radar doesn't have the resolution to draw you any kind of reliable image or an aircraft at range, but maybe my knowledge is out-dated.

Quote
Regarding the AWACS in BMS, DCS or any other sim, what's the problem (realistic-wise) in using the "Declare" command??
Like Ice said, this is basically what AWACS do and are for...


Actually AWACS is 'just part' of the ID Matrix, just like IFF is. As pointed out above, the moment that IFF said 'friendly', AWACS' 'hostile' declaration was ignored in favor of a VID. Likewise, AWACS was of no help (and should have been) in the RL blue-on-blue incident where a pair of eagles shot down a pair of UH-60's. No EID, VID, AWACS, etc. helped those guys out at all unfortunately.

So, we're back to 'but in game the AWACS (IFF, labels, whatever) knows this perfectly, so why not use it that way?'


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#4368985 - 07/13/17 03:17 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost

That NCTR method is reliable enough to allow certain fighters (ie. F-15) to include it as part of their EID chain. It has been supplemented or replaced since, but there's no ISAR involved AFAIK - radar doesn't have the resolution to draw you any kind of reliable image or an aircraft at range, but maybe my knowledge is out-dated.


No, it is not that reliable specially against aircraft equipped with Diverterless Supersonic Inlets (DSI) which are found on some of the most modern fighter aircraft, namely the F-35, F-22 and also others like the Rafale (if I'm not mistaken) since you cannot get a reading on the jet engine fan blades since these are hidden by the DSI and as such it's very hard to obtain a NCTR reading using these older methods.

About ISAR I have read that for example the F-22's APG-77 radar can perform target recognition using ISAR so it's safe to assume that the F-35 APG-81 radar can also perform it or that ISAR can be used as a NCTR "tool".



Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Quote
Regarding the AWACS in BMS, DCS or any other sim, what's the problem (realistic-wise) in using the "Declare" command??
Like Ice said, this is basically what AWACS do and are for...


Actually AWACS is 'just part' of the ID Matrix, just like IFF is. As pointed out above, the moment that IFF said 'friendly', AWACS' 'hostile' declaration was ignored in favor of a VID. Likewise, AWACS was of no help (and should have been) in the RL blue-on-blue incident where a pair of eagles shot down a pair of UH-60's. No EID, VID, AWACS, etc. helped those guys out at all unfortunately.

So, we're back to 'but in game the AWACS (IFF, labels, whatever) knows this perfectly, so why not use it that way?'


Yes, that "matrix" is called netcentric-warfare.

It's been a while since VID is not required/mandatory in order to engage hostile aircraft at BVR distance. For example during Desert Storm if an aircraft received "hostile" confirmation from 2 of the 3 following methods:
1- AWACS
2- NCTR
3- IFF
Then the aircraft was authorized to engage at BVR. And if I recall correctly, in 1991 only the F-15C was equipped with NCTR and thus it was the only aircraft that could engage enemy aircraft in BVR without any actual AWACS confirmation (if it got "hostile/foe" confirmation from both NTCR and IFF).
All other aircraft (which at that time weren't equipped with NCTR) needed to have AWACS and IFF confirmation in order to engage at BVR. Note the importance of AWACS confirmation (or "Declare" in our sims/games)!

Anyway and once again, things have GREATLY evolved since 1991 and since that F15 vs Blackhawk incident.

And be assure that the times where VID with the "old Mk.1 eyeball" was required during WARTIME are long gone.
Again, you don't need to VID using the pilot's "Mk.1 eyeball" anymore (for example due to EO/IR sensors or again other means/sensors).

However and returning to the sims/games, namely DCS or BMS we need to realise that these sims/games models aircraft from the 1990's or the first decade of 2000 which means that we are either talking about aircraft that pre-date the modern concept of netcentric warfare (which is still being implemented as we speak, BTW) or implements/models the very first steps towards the netcentric warfare. I'm talking namely about BMS and DCS A-10C and as such AWACS call/declare is essential as it was for those real aircraft/pilots counterparts of that (quite recent) era.

#4368992 - 07/13/17 03:42 PM Re: DCS F/A-18C To Be Released Soon [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
Actually AWACS is 'just part' of the ID Matrix, just like IFF is. As pointed out above, the moment that IFF said 'friendly', AWACS' 'hostile' declaration was ignored in favor of a VID.

What part of the video is this, GrayGhost? At 24:25, AWACS calls out the popup contacts as bogeys (unidentifed), 25:40, AWACS IDs them as bandits (hostile)... but that enemy was killed. At 28:00, AWACS tells them there's another contact... but the video does not say if AWACS calls out bogey or bandits but the narrator says "bogey" at 28:20... there's nothing about AWACS ID'ing this as bandit and this was the target that IFF declared "friendly." At 29:55, there's a second bogey and again, nothing about AWACS ID'ing the second target. Underhill's F-15 is the one that is ID'ing it as "friendly" and this is the one that Rico VIDs as MiG-29. So where is this instance of IFF "friendly but AWACS "hostile" ID that you speak of?

As we can see, even though IFF is part of the ID Matrix, even a "positive friendly ID" can be a "false positive" and pilots would rather risk their LIVES and VID a target than trust IFF.... does that not give you a clue as to how much weight is given to that form of identification?

Also, instead of saying "AWACS 'hostile' declaration was ignored," would the better assumption not be --- given conflicting ID callouts, the pilot chose to verify ID... note that I say "verify" and not "ignore"... by using the MK 1 eyeball?


Originally Posted by GrayGhost
So, we're back to 'but in game the AWACS (IFF, labels, whatever) knows this perfectly, so why not use it that way?'

In BMS, there can be a lot of blue-on-blue incidents... and when the airwaves are saturated, it can be difficult to get a "Declare" call in. However, if you lock up a target and tell your wingman to attack the target and the target is friendly, the wingman will say "no".... so "but in game the AWACS (or wingman!) knows this perfectly so why not use it that way?" Just use your wingman to ID the target for you, right? duh

Like I said before --- "If people decide to play SPAMRAAM and Air Quake, this doesn't mean we can't discuss real-world usage and the accuracy or errors we do in our hobby."


- Ice
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by KraziKanuK. 10/12/19 04:18 AM
“Masters of Air”
by PanzerMeyer. 10/11/19 10:51 PM
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