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#4359443 - 05/25/17 04:37 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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I cleared out some messages...should be good now leaf.


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#4359456 - 05/25/17 06:25 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Frederf Offline
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So this is halting releases but continuing development? Presumably this frees up resources to make changes without worrying if it's exactly release ready constantly. That could mean faster development.

#4359471 - 05/25/17 08:06 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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bkthunder Offline
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I don't have the VEAO Hawk, but good choice on their part. You can't develop for 4 platforms, all bugged and ever-changing in unpredictable ways.


Regarding the Ed forum moderation, great post from 112th_Rossi! I bet he's wearing his red posting-rights-revoked cross with honour. I'm done buying ED products, as someone said in the reddit post, playing something made by a bunch of assholes feels weird, and paying assholes gives even less pleasure. Still, I have the feeling that the Russian part of ED is not as mentally f*cked, after all, they have a daily job and not as much free time to stalk people on the internet as SnotSpawn and Wanger do.

#4359590 - 05/26/17 01:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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xXNightEagleXx Offline
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Oh look a developer who has the guts to stand for their own interest instead of worship ED. It hurts me to read comments of people finding many excuses about why ED does this or that, as always customers just fall into any c***p a developer says to them.

They had two ways :
1 - Keep expanding the old code to avoid development from scratch and perhaps keep, in theory, the life easier for 3rd party developers by developing in small steps so it become easier for 3rd party developers to update their products.
2 - Develop a new version from scratch and using the past experience (old software) as guide line about what to do or not to do. Which may force any 3rd party developer to a bigger development.

The problem with point 1 is that sooner or later you will get a spaghetti code with increasing difficulty as you go on (the worse the base design the faster it will be). You will keep carrying bugged code around for years (eg. xplane devs just fixed a bug in their tire code that has been there unnoticed for years) or simply old code (eg. new ai development technique but you still have 90' style ai code with all their inflexibility). Even if you are unrealistically lucky enough to not carry any bug around, the growth of the software will not homogeneous. You will have many piece of the software that will be outdated (DCS is a perfect example, you have this new graphic engine whereas everything else - core, netcode, ai - is outdated) and since you are improving a piece per time the freedom of development for a given piece may be held back by others outdated piece of software that must maintain compatibility with but still has an old design.
I'm not saying that it cannot be done, but it requires a very well done design with great vision of future features/expansions and certainly a flexible core architecture. If you do all your homework PERFECTLY then you will really make life easier for 3rd party devs but first of all it requires a really modular base software that separate completely the core code from the modules (eg. flight simulator that is 15 years old but still has a good 3rd party development limited only by the VAS problem which was not a problem at that time). But beware, the spaghetti code is inevitable it just take longer to hit that.

The point 2 obviously requires more workforce for both the base software and maybe even 3rd party software. But hey, this become an acceptable excuse for devs to earn more money with new versions of their work (unless they abuse) . However, if you sucked in software architecture design the first time, you might make mistakes again on the newer version (eg. falcon development has been reset twice or trice).

DCS is neither an OS nor one of those EXTREMELY RARE class of software that basically cannot be rebuilt from scratch due to their nature. There is no excuse on why not take option 2 (regardless military contract or not)! At first i would say that this is just lazy development but since they decided to work on 3 branches at the same then this is not laziness at all, this is just stupid development (again regardless military contract or not).

It is like if the company who bought falcon 4 license starts to waste money on further development on that old and ugly code instead of creating a whole new project (eg. falcon 5).

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 05/26/17 01:06 PM.
#4359600 - 05/26/17 01:47 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Force10]  
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ST0RM Offline
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Originally Posted by Force10
It seems like instead of DCS being a flight sim that is geared toward reaching a broad audience, it's becoming more of an exclusive club...and getting more exclusive as time goes on.


Amen!

#4362063 - 06/05/17 01:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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straycat Offline
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VEAO is a bunch of incompetent losers. My question is why ED did not cut them off before they released the hawk. That thing was a substandard piece of trash. All they do is make excuse on how hard development is. To me it looks like they are a bunch of dudes who like to spend their weekends at an airfield drinking beer and thought they can make a quick $ with a module.

Their product quality borders on fraud because they and ED knew exactly how crappy the hawk was on release day and still they charged 50-60$ for it.

#4362159 - 06/05/17 07:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Suicidal_6 Offline
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Yep. Big waste of money. I wish I had picked another module.


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S6
#4365153 - 06/21/17 01:51 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: straycat]  
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LOF_Rugg Offline
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Originally Posted by straycat
VEAO is a bunch of incompetent losers. My question is why ED did not cut them off before they released the hawk. That thing was a substandard piece of trash. All they do is make excuse on how hard development is. To me it looks like they are a bunch of dudes who like to spend their weekends at an airfield drinking beer and thought they can make a quick $ with a module.

Their product quality borders on fraud because they and ED knew exactly how crappy the hawk was on release day and still they charged 50-60$ for it.


You knowingly bought a bit of software that you KNEW wasn't finished. Be mad all you want...........at yourself. I stopped buying ED's alpha and beta software a long time ago. I'll buy when they have a real release. Maybe you wouldn't have sour grapes had you done the same.

#4365280 - 06/21/17 03:09 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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- Ice Offline
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- Ice  Offline
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I think the issue **NOW** with the Hawk is not the fact that it isn't finished.... anyone buying a BETA knows that the product is, well, beta. The issue NOW is what state the Hawk is in knowing how long ago it was released and what they have done or not done since then to address the issues regarding the module.

If someone bought a new aircraft today while it is in a beta state then complains about bugs tommorrow, then your statement is valid. This isn't the case with the Hawk.


- Ice
#4365947 - 06/25/17 11:12 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: - Ice]  
Joined: Dec 2013
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EjectEject Offline
SBD
EjectEject  Offline
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Posts: 153
USA
Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

#4365954 - 06/25/17 12:52 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: EjectEject]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Posts: 772
Originally Posted by EjectEject
Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

Havent some folk already paid for the P40? ED allowed the sale of that module under one contract now when its closer to release, ha, they have to seek a different contract. Seems to me the customers, once again (WW2 kickstarter), are getting the shaft because EDs business model is based on "wait and see because everything is subject to change" why on earth anybody pays for betas on that platform/business model is a head scratching mystery to me. Some folk have more money than sense.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4365965 - 06/25/17 01:57 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 14,410
Tom_Weiss Offline
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3rd Planet, Sun
maybe I am being daft - or it is plain ignorance as I don't keep track of 3rd party devs - but the VEO forum is there, what is the fuss ?

#4365967 - 06/25/17 02:07 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 153
EjectEject Offline
SBD
EjectEject  Offline
SBD
Member

Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 153
USA
Originally Posted by Tom_Weiss
maybe I am being daft - or it is plain ignorance as I don't keep track of 3rd party devs - but the VEO forum is there, what is the fuss ?


Yea, appears to be there now. Maybe the mention of "contract" changed some things.


Last edited by EjectEject; 06/25/17 02:07 PM.
#4366310 - 06/27/17 04:03 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: EjectEject]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Originally Posted by EjectEject
Who knows what will happen now.
From VEAO's Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/veaosimulations/


Quote
Dear All,
A note to clarify the position regarding our sub-forums being deleted on ED's forums over the weekend.
We were notified on Friday that TFC would not be renewing our existing contracts that had a 3 year term on them and when the module is closer to release we can seek a contract under new terms from ED.
We are currently evaluating the contract terms with our legal team and discussing the matter with TFC and ED.
That's all I can say on the matter right now.
So as it stands today we are no longer in contract with TFC/ED for the following:
HA-112 Hipano Buchon
Supermarine Spitfire Mk XIV
F8F Bearcat
Curtis P-40F
Typhoon
As you can imagine this was a bit of a shock to us and we are evaluating our position currently.
An official post will be made when things are clearer.
Please give us time to deal with this news.
Thanks,
Chris.

This also Destroys the myth/lie that ED had no part in the original WW2 kickstarter. If RRG were just a third party and ED were in no way a partner in the fiasco why did ED not do the same with RRG as they have done with VEAO? VEAO had been allowed to continue for far longer than RRG were allowed. Money had been exchanged for the P40 just as the had been for the Kickstarter. Why hasn't ED taken full control over VEAO assets as they did with The WW2 stuff? Because they are not partners, because ED were a partner in the kickstarter and after full assessment of the successfully funded Kickstarter decided "Nah, were not going to honour this, lets cut the rewards, throw some BS around, blame RRG and every bodies favorite scapegoat Luthier and call it good. Most folk will believe us, they're mostly idiots." Some folk will still refuse to join the dots.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366361 - 06/27/17 07:38 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Posts: 481
*Striker* Offline
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I don't think it's really fair to jump on ED for all of what you said but I understand the frustration completely. A lot of mistakes have been made in the last few years and everyone is getting frustrated and impatient including me. This has been posted before but here's the link again about what happened with RRG. All of the different companies are under different contracts so you can't compare what is happening with VEAO and what happened with RRG.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126824

#4366380 - 06/27/17 08:48 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Posts: 772
Originally Posted by *Striker*
I don't think it's really fair to jump on ED for all of what you said but I understand the frustration completely. A lot of mistakes have been made in the last few years and everyone is getting frustrated and impatient including me. This has been posted before but here's the link again about what happened with RRG. All of the different companies are under different contracts so you can't compare what is happening with VEAO and what happened with RRG.

https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=126824

Yeah I read that.
The link you posted is from sithspawn a forum moderator. That is not from wags or anyone with any knowledge of the facts merely a spin doctor. There has never been an official response from anyone at ED/TFC. Apart from this
https://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=125454
"The exception will be the circumstances which led to this change in product management and development. Sorry, but that simply is not going to happen due to legal agreements."

Re read the kickstarter

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944

in its entirety including the updates

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/508681281/dcs-wwii-europe-1944/updates

Back and forths between RRG and ED, ED giving go aheads. It's all there. If you'd actually care to do some research on the whole debacle and not just read what sith says and take it as gospel.







Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/27/17 09:15 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366418 - 06/27/17 11:19 PM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 481
*Striker* Offline
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*Striker*  Offline
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Posts: 481
I don't take anything Sith says as gospel and in fact I think he's pretty much a jerk, but he is the head community moderator and that was posted as the official explanation and cleared from ED. Sith just posted it for them. Also, I was only pointing out that VEAO and RRG are different entities and have or had different contracts. It's obviously very complicated because there is a lot of cross development and sharing of development data. Yes, what was promised from ED and the Kickstarter turned out to be a total mess. Everyone agrees with you on that. But ED did take up the job and finished the Normandy map despite the fact that RRG completely blew it.

#4366456 - 06/28/17 01:49 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Where does it state that that was posted as the official explanation and cleared by ED? Where? I've read it I see no official statement. All i see is the same BS as siths pathetic post about the community and his "reaching out". Was that pathetic patting himself on the back an official statement too?
Do you honestly believe that ED would allow a third party to operate without setting out an in depth business plan?
"RRG stated that Kickstarter funds would be a small part of the project. Where the other funding was coming from was undisclosed"
"The money being raised is only a portion of the development budget. The majority of the programming, some aircraft art, and more, are the costs that the team is funding internally" the team being RRG, ED, TFC, oleg, ilya and igor. Its on the kickstarter.
I think i'll head on over to ED tell them i have a few million tucked away, not saying where, they'll have to take my word for it. Sith stated in the "official" explanation that they're morons, and start my own third party. C'mon! You think thats an official statement?
Of all the other failed third parties why is the RRG WW2 kickstarter the only one "picked up" by ED? Their name is all over it thats why. They were part of the "Team" as written on the kickstarter.
"The project is a joint venture between RRG Studios and Eagle Dynamics."
Because Sith opens a thread doesnt make it an official statement. Thats the myth, the smoke and mirrors, the BS that surrounds the kickstarter lie. Sith spreads the lie and if its caught its not an official statement, just siths opinion. If its not caught its official until its caught.
Its so badly put together and poorly written and starts with "what we know" "im writing this because..." its not official.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 06/28/17 02:40 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4366460 - 06/28/17 02:10 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 481
*Striker* Offline
Member
*Striker*  Offline
Member

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 481
All companies and business have complicated contracts that sometimes go bad and they do what they always do, CYA. You and I are not privy to ED and their partner contracts so we all have no idea how they're interlinked. But the Normandy map was promised and ED made good on it. That's all I know. I'm going to hazard to guess that the same will happen with the P-40 since it's part of the WWII backer stuff. But as far as previous promises or developments, we all know the current ED company slogan, "Everything is Subject to Change!'

BTW, everything that's posted on the ED forums by the moderators or ED staff are official announcements. That's already been stated many times before.

#4366462 - 06/28/17 02:14 AM Re: VEAO Halting Release Of New Modules [Re: *Striker*]  
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 772
The P40 was not part of the Ww2 backer stuff. I suggest you do some research before posting any more on something you have very little knowledge of.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
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