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#4358187 - 05/19/17 10:00 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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And then there was....

[Linked Image]

I think I have worn the "are you a real hawk pilot" from an earlier post here in these forums from VEAO.

[Linked Image]

Unfortunately Robert has fallen into the trap that "a few more builds and all will be well"

Well.....12 months ago after discussions with Chris when I let this thread die, I was promised "a few more updates and all will be ok"

12 months later and here we are.....






Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4358196 - 05/19/17 10:27 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Ah, word must have got back to ED\VEAO regarding VEAO's blaming of ED's patches causing numerous bugs

Have a go at this from not so long ago.

[Linked Image]

now it's....."Tango's code is the cause of the bugs and now we need to rewrite every 8000 original lines of code that Tango provided before his essential sacking after asking for a pay rise"

The plot thickens.....the conspiracy theory balloons as it spreads....almost like an invasive weed or parasite.

This review must seriously be quite damaging from ED's point of view (the thread being monitored by ED's staff) if VEAO's tune and shift of blame has gone from ED (whilst supported by the community manager) to "Tango's code is the actual cause"

very interesting indeed. Still no comment Skate? Sobek?

Another 5 years of development confirmed having to rewrite the entire code base just to get the smoke to function......


#4358207 - 05/19/17 11:30 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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one would of thought that the re-coding would have taken place 12 months ago......obviously the re-coding is a bug that ED need to fix?


[Linked Image]

#4358219 - 05/19/17 12:36 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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I see stuff like this and i think of this guy ...............

[Linked Image]



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4358259 - 05/19/17 03:30 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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My guess is that because of all of the problems, VEAO wishes they had never released it.

#4358333 - 05/19/17 11:12 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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I'm sorry, but does the ED team re-code the A-10C and the Shark's flight model or weapons systems for every patch? Does it have to re-work the F-15 and the Su-27's FM?

So why is VEAO claiming that all it's problems is due to the ever-changing nature of DCS? Sure, I appreciate that things get broken after a patch, but is smoke REALLY that much of a challenge to code? If they're having problems with smoke, then how does it look like for things like the FM?

Also, did none of the 3rd party devs know about this three-build plan when they decided to join and make modules for DCS?


- Ice
#4358363 - 05/20/17 04:41 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Way over in Perth, Western Aus...
Ice defending ED for once... biggrin winkngrin


mdwa
#4358399 - 05/20/17 01:40 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
I'm sorry, but does the ED team re-code the A-10C and the Shark's flight model or weapons systems for every patch?


Every single update that has been released since 1.0 either in 1.5 or 2.0 has caused bugs with both of these modules and quite a few others. I know this for a fact because I've experienced them first hand. Switches that don't work properly or lights that don't work or ground crew repair that's broken and causes the jet to flip around 180 degrees. There have also been other problems like TGP showing transparent vehicles in thermal and weird flight model behaviors, radios not functioning properly. There have been bushel barrels full of problems. But the Hawk has been exceptionally broken. It wasn't available in 1.0 though so who knows how it would have been if released back in that version of DCS World. Unless VEAO was originally coding it in 1.0, I guess they would know. The Hawk has never really been officially finished though.

#4358409 - 05/20/17 02:34 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Also, did none of the 3rd party devs know about this three-build plan when they decided to join and make modules for DCS?


Of course they didn't.....because it wasn't in ED's integration plans either. It only manifested when they couldn't finish 2.0 in time and had to break apart the functionality into separate streams just so they could get something 2.0 related with a 3 year delay instead of an 5 year delay which is about where we are now.
Whilst I have some sympathy for 3rd parties having to work with a company that has no road-map, no idea which way they are headed at any moment of time and react to their commercial/military contracts, I've no sympathy for the third parties that follow the same early access/beta path that ED defined which has no finish date and often no intent to actually complete the modules they are taking money for.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4358449 - 05/20/17 05:55 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by mdwa
Ice defending ED for once... biggrin winkngrin

You need to wash your mouth!! biggrin

Originally Posted by *Striker*
Every single update that has been released since 1.0 either in 1.5 or 2.0 has caused bugs with both of these modules and quite a few others.

Ouch! Although I'm not surprised, the norm has been to fix 1 thing and break 2 others things with each patch. I guess if the patches break good modules, I can only assume what it does to bad modules.

Originally Posted by Paradaz
[Of course they didn't.....because it wasn't in ED's integration plans either. It only manifested when they couldn't finish 2.0 in time and had to break apart the functionality into separate streams just so they could get something 2.0 related with a 3 year delay instead of an 5 year delay which is about where we are now.
Whilst I have some sympathy for 3rd parties having to work with a company that has no road-map, no idea which way they are headed at any moment of time and react to their commercial/military contracts, I've no sympathy for the third parties that follow the same early access/beta path that ED defined which has no finish date and often no intent to actually complete the modules they are taking money for.

So if they didn't know at the start, what did they do when they realized that this was the path ED was going to take? Why go along with a plan that is clearly inept and would involve so much more work than necessary? Why not stand back, tell ED to finish their work, then start their own work once the core systems of DCS have been set down?

I guess I'm giving ED and 3rd party way too much credit here in terms of common sense, but the questions need to be asked.


- Ice
#4358522 - 05/21/17 04:57 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by *Striker*
Every single update that has been released since 1.0 either in 1.5 or 2.0 has caused bugs with both of these modules and quite a few others.

Originally Posted by - Ice
Ouch! Although I'm not surprised, the norm has been to fix 1 thing and break 2 others things with each patch. I guess if the patches break good modules, I can only assume what it does to bad modules.

They've actually done a pretty good job of squashing most of the bugs. You know how I am about this and I'm not going to defend ED's practices. That's their job, to fix the bugs and make it a viable sim environment. I'm just as sick and tired of the excuses as a lot of people are. But at least most of the real nefarious ones have been addressed. The other serious and mostly invisible problems to most users are all of the triggering and scripting bugs. It makes it close to impossible for mission builders because it's a constant moving target right now. They have stated that a lot of those bugs should be mostly fixed by the time 2.5 is released, in 2020 probably. clapping

#4358533 - 05/21/17 08:37 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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And that is exactly the same reason why ED shouldn't be putting effort into supporting/pushing payware campaigns until the core game is merged and stable.

Apart from having to patch the game just to support a campaign, it means that EDs involvement in pushing these also gives them responsibility in the fixing/integration and re-testing each and every one once 2.5 is released.....in 2050 probably. yep


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4358544 - 05/21/17 12:26 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
And that is exactly the same reason why ED shouldn't be putting effort into supporting/pushing payware campaigns until the core game is merged and stable.

Apart from having to patch the game just to support a campaign, it means that EDs involvement in pushing these also gives them responsibility in the fixing/integration and re-testing each and every one once 2.5 is released.....in 2050 probably. yep


^^

A waste of time for ED having to release updates to make campaigns stable on a monthly basis, as was signing on another 3rd party developer who promised good things with WW2 only to pull the pin and leave ED to pick up the kick starter promises.

VEAO is basically the 1st and longest running 3rd party developer....now ED has to divert time yet again to fix VEAO's endless bug list. From a business stand point, VEAO's failed Hawk has to be damaging ED's reputation especially with quotes from VEAO informing consumers that ED have to fix the bugs,

basically all I am seeing here is a marvelous model and the coding for it into the 'world' being entirely up to ED.

ED need to burn off the dead wood.

#4358553 - 05/21/17 01:45 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
And that is exactly the same reason why ED shouldn't be putting effort into supporting/pushing payware campaigns until the core game is merged and stable.

I agree completely but part of the problem is that some people in the community planned on and started building campaigns back some time ago. ED also had a contest for that as well so it's been a domino effect. I started building a lot of missions back a few years ago but stopped because the triggering system is badly broken for a lot of different functions.

#4375321 - 08/19/17 09:48 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Bumped....brace yourself gents......

I am about to have a field day with this thread......after I wipe the dust from the pages here in.

#4375322 - 08/19/17 09:51 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by BeachAV8R
Very satisfying. Anyone that knows me will know I have a fondness for trainers...




A fondness for trainers outside of the DCS platform perhaps? Will your next Mudspike review on the 'finished hawk' be blowing sunshine up Chris's behind since it has taken 5+ years so far....and it looks like another 5+ years to deliver a project that was meant to take 12 months?

#4375323 - 08/19/17 09:52 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla
there are at least 8 Trainers in progress,

Hawk, C-101, L-39 being the First 3.

VEAO has at least 4 more.


True? where? what platform?

#4375324 - 08/19/17 09:53 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by BeachAV8R
I can probably hit the deck hard enough to simulate an arrested landing...but I probably won't be able to taxi clear of the landing zone.. thumbsup

BeachAV8R


surely won't be happening in the next 5 years either mate......

#4375326 - 08/19/17 10:21 AM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted by HarryR
If you think she's fun now, wait 'till you get her RAT out! wink

[Linked Image]



in another 5 years perhaps? P3D? X plane 14? won't be DCS now that we have official statements the VEAO have gone down the tube......

Originally Posted by Jedi Master
You know, nothing fills me with more confidence in airline pilots than the phrase "pilots pulled circuit breakers for giggles."



The Jedi Master


If that's the case.....ED should have pulled VEAO's circuit breaker years ago

Originally Posted by BeachAV8R
Still enjoying the heck out the Hawk. For those clamoring for something relatively easy to get into and fly and fight - this one will be right down your alley. Just a flip of a few switches to get set up and then the rest is down to practice and getting the dive angle and airspeed figured out...

Many thanks to the 476th vFG for making their Air Weapons Range available to the public and to Bunyap for the great tutorial on importing it into DCS World.

thumbsup

Heading down the range for a strafe run...

[Linked Image]

Some bombing practice...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

No CCIP here..just angles and airspeed...

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Not bad for the Mark-I Eyeball...

[Linked Image]

Bring on EDGE - but DCS World ugly even at this stage? I don't think so...

[Linked Image]


Still enjoying the heck out of the Hawk?? surely it has been shelved after all these years.......Publish my review at Mudspike, at least it's honest.


Originally Posted by Azshal
Looks good Beach. Can't wait! thumbsup



Let me guess.....You and me are on the same page and you are still waiting?

Originally Posted by Azshal
Looks good Beach. Can't wait! thumbsup

Originally Posted by BeachAV8R
Originally Posted by HarryR
Does it have an Aden cannon?

I think it is planned to have one - right now they are using the Russian UPK-23-250 pod as a stand-in.

BeachAV8R


What about the sounds of the Aden cannon......they have been bawked to this very day.....

Originally Posted by AZAviator
I will purchase the Hawk when it's released.


and seek a refund if you haven't already??

Originally Posted by toonces
That looks really nice. I might have missed it...has a planned release timeframe been announced?


Yep, Approx date is 15 years from today's date, as it will be in P3D, then 5 years later, Dovetail Flightsim World, then X plane 14.

Originally Posted by Snoopy_476th
It was announced but VEAO are working to identify the cause and fix on a blocking bug.


Ah.....bugs have been the root cause for many issues with this module eh?

Originally Posted by scrim
So BAE aren't giving them legal trouble any longer then?



Nope, quite sure the legal trouble has switched from BAE to ED.....has a nice ring to it if I don't say so myself.....

Originally Posted by WinterH
Can't fint the exact post but yes, as far as I recall legal issues with BAE were fixed, and release is pending fixing of a bug right now.


ah....that bug seems to be recurring.....even as far back as 2014. Recurring to the point VEAO released a statement saying they will be holding off on releases now in 2017.

Originally Posted by BeachAV8R
As mentioned, there are still some issues with the landing behavior that the team is working out.

BeachAV8R



Proof that the landing bug is not fixed even in 2017. Where was that in the mudspike review all those years ago?

Originally Posted by scrim
That's good to hear, was afraid legal nonsense would stop a promising looking 3rd party dev.
(in regards to BAE back in the day)

It was never promising,,,,,, Let's be realistic on the situation, it was a flop from the get go.

Originally Posted by Nate
Just Ordered the EFM. Can't wait smile

Nate


Still waiting for something decent hey Nate

Originally Posted by Snoopy_476th
Originally Posted by SkateZilla
Originally Posted by snakels
So Some of the pre-purchase bods will get access to the DL for the HAWK and the rest of us will have to wait until November?


There's also testers.


Yup, I've been testing and flying the Hawk for just over 2 years now.


ah.....is this why you gave up tester status at ED Snoopy? bug reporting on this module became too much?

#4375339 - 08/19/17 01:17 PM Re: DCS: VEAO Hawk EFM & Damage Model [Re: Winfield]  
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LOl, I haven't touched the hawk or done any testing for VEAO for close to two years if not longer.

As to why I left the ED tester team it had nothing to do with the Hawk, I left because I was asked to be a tester specifically for the A-10C and ED stopped fixing bugs or things that were just wrong with true module. No reason to give ED free labor if they don't listen. Anything more than that and I'd be violation of the NdA.

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