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#4348037 - 03/31/17 10:33 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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I don't understand exactly: what is the lighting for? Merely aesthetics?


Airplanes are now built to carry a pilot and a dog in the cockpit: the pilot's job is
to feed the dog, and the dog's job is to bite the pilot if he touches anything...

- Arlen Rens, Lockheed Martin test pilot
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4348040 - 03/31/17 10:47 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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That is all -- merely aesthetics.

Some folks build their gaming PC with a clear side cover so that they can "see the hardware". In my case, the side cover is black metal -- so I only see it while I'm building and testing the PC.


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4348045 - 03/31/17 11:26 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Here's an example of "clear sided" case. Looks much like my case -- except my case has black metal sides. My case is on the right.


Attached Files 11-854-018-05.jpg11-147-161-29.jpg

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4348081 - 03/31/17 02:20 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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the LEDs are for show, lol..

I have a Clear Side mod for my HAF922, just to show off all the purrrty blue LEDs on my Lightnings...

But when your gaming or watching a movie in the dark , them flicking blue LEDs become annoying.. lol.


HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4348094 - 03/31/17 02:46 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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I have an Antec Sonata case, the original. It has two blue LEDs shining out the front of the case, but it's off to my side and I don't see them.

I have lights on my 1070 and I'm glad I have a solid cover because that would shine in my eyes if it was clear.



The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4348287 - 04/01/17 12:19 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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The concept of modding the case to see the illuminated motherboard did pass through my mind. I like the lights because as I walk past my "office area", I can immediately see if the computer is on or off by the lights. But, I've already covered that by using front case fans with LEDs.

As noted above, Windows 10 has not yet "complained" about the 3'd motherboard being "unregistered" (it did complain about the 2'd one). However, two other paid-for applications have complained.

Although they let me continue, they informed me I only had a limited amount of activations -- before I have to buy new copies. Maybe I can explain whats happened and get back an activation, or not. Just one more downside of failing motherboards (not something I've had to deal with lately).

My current build activity is to finish modifying my Swiftech water cooler to fit the PC system. My Swiftech is made of separate components, bought separately. Its powerful, but I have to "make it fit" in more ways than one.

When the water cooler is installed and running, I can experiment with overclocking (my temporary air cooler isn't effective enough for overclocking).


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4349061 - 04/04/17 07:51 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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The water cooler is up and running.

Its a Swiftech 3 fan radiator type. The fans, water reservoir, and pump are built into a "home made" stand that sits to the right of the computer. Only the water tubes and a power connector pass to the computer. Of course, the water cooling block is in the computer on the Ryzen processor.

The build is not pretty. Its practical for my particular situation. Everything is out of most folks sight. But, I can look down and verify operation and lack of leaks.

Dropped my CPU temperature approximately 10C at idle and during stress test -- versus the previous 125W rated air cooler. Idle is 40-41C. Stress is 65C after 10 minutes or so. Room temperature is roughly 24C or more where the PC and water cooling sit.

My FX9590 220W CPU ran cooler with this exact same setup. However, there is some question about CPU temperature accuracy -- both on FX9590 and Ryzen 1800X. FX9590 may have been indicating low. Ryzen 1800X may indicate too high. Just another thing to "watch" over the next few weeks.

Attached Files WaterCoolerAssembly.jpg

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4349073 - 04/04/17 08:12 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4349076 - 04/04/17 08:34 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Thanks for the information. Yes, I just got back from a simple Google search on the same subject.

Subtract 20C from Ryzen 1800X indicated temperature.

Makes my temperatures 25C idle (in a 24C room space) and 45C stress. Much more reasonable smile

However, only subtract that much from a couple Ryzen part numbers. They are not all that way.


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4351056 - 04/14/17 11:30 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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I have Windows 10 Creator's Update installed.

I have the new Gigabyte F3 BIOS installed (easy to do in BIOS -- just a couple clicks). The motherboard came with a "preliminary" F2 BIOS installed.

My first attempt to overclock the memory (which test reports say actually increases Ryzen performance) didn't work. I tried a simple minded "click" on the box in BIOS. It ostensibly tried to set up my memory to its actual specifications. Fail. I had take the cover off and reset the BIOS.

Now, since its been years since my last significant memory overclock, I have to relearn how to do it (actually, in principle, I'm not overclocking -- just trying to get the memory to run to specification). I'd like the "free" performance improvement.


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4351094 - 04/14/17 02:32 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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shouldnt the BIOS just download the settings using AMP?

I had to do that w/ my 990FX Board for almost a year after I installed it, manually enter timings and stuff, after a year, ASRock finally added AMP Profiles to the BIOS. after that, I just had to select the profile from the memory stick,.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 04/14/17 02:33 PM.

HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4352422 - 04/20/17 10:50 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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I tried overclocking the Ryzen 1800X. Easy peasy.

I went to 4.0GHz at stock volts -- just increased the clock speed ratio from 36 to 40. Actually, my Ryzen always hits 3.7GHz when running benchmarks even at normal 3.6GHz settings. So, boosting to 4.0 is only an 8 percent boost from its normal run speed of 3.7GHz.

Ran Prime95 maximum CPU stress/heat benchmark for about 10 minutes. Maximum CPU temperature was 61C -- on the desktop with no significant app running the CPU temperature is about 24-25C (water cooled).

As one can see in the attached CPU-Z benchmark, Ryzen CPU at 4.0GHz single threaded they say is comparable (not equal) to I7-7700K at 4.2GHz. Multi-threaded is no contest. Interestingly, in the CPU-Z single threaded test, I got nearly the same result on stock clocks -- probably because stock Ryzen runs 4.0GHz when running one thread on one core.

I tried Cinebench 15 and got 1720 multi-threaded. I looked up the historical results list on line. Ryzen 1800X at stock clocks beats almost everything else at stock clocks -- usually by a lot. Its the a couple 10 core and 2CPU x 10 core stuff that beats Ryzen. But, I don't know their actual test conditions.

I retried FireStrike Ultra 4K benchmark and Time Spy. No change in the GPU tests (maybe 1 percent at best). Got 7 percent more in Firestrike Ultra CPU and 4 percent more in Time Spy CPU. Multi-core easily blew away I7-7700K (but, you knew that smile ).

While all this was going on, I had an app running on another screen showing the CPU temperatures, voltages, per core wattages -- so I could get an Idea of how hard it was being pushed.

I saw that 3DMark GPU tests barely use 2 or 3 cores at low low activity (lots of jumping around cores but most cores are barely moving). So, 3DMark overall score does not test the 8core Ryzen CPU. Even on the CPU tests that nominally use all the cores, the usage was only about 90 percent of the usage when running Prime 95 stress test.

So overall, the Ryzen CPU overclocked easily. And, overclocked it puts up very competitive numbers -- almost always the best in multi-threaded against other CPUs at stock clocks; and, only the top Intel series CPUs beat it single thread -- not by a whole lot -- pretty much in proportion to their higher clocks.


Overclocking the memory is actually supposed to make a difference with Ryzen because some Ryzen internal circuitry speed is related to memory speed. So, natch, I want to overclock the memory (never much cared to do that in the past).

BUT BUT BUT -- I still am getting no memory overclock. None, nada, zip. Crashes on takeoff if I change the memory speed just a touch. I must be doing something typically incompetent -- not the first time -- that's why its "typical" for me smile

I'll keep looking for the solution. One possibility is that my DRAM is not compatible. But, my first choice is ME smile

Attached Files CPUZvs7700K.PNG

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352436 - 04/21/17 12:05 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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what's the entire model number of your RAM Kit?

I know for the 990FX Boards, Overclocking Ram always required a IMC Voltage bump when Running more than 2 sticks. (4 Stick Kits). Dunno if AM4/3xx boards would require similar,

Overlocking was also a PITA in the first year or so, until they finally integrated the AMP Profile Loading and stuff.


HAF922, Corsair RM850, ASRock Fata1ity 990FX Pro,
Modified Corsair H100, AMD FX8350 @ 5.31GHz, 16GB G.SKILL@DDR2133,
2x R7970 Lightnings, +1 HD7950 @ 1.1/6.0GHz, Creative XFi Fata1ity Platinum Champ.,
3x ASUS VS248HP + Hanns�G HZ201HPB + Acer AL2002 (5760x1080+1600x900+1680x1050), Oculus Rift CV
CH Fighterstick, Pro Throt., Pro Pedals, TM Warthog & MFDs, Fanatec CSR Wheel/Shifter, Elite Pedals
Intensity Pro 10-Bit, TrackIR 4 Pro, WD Black 1.5TB, WD Black 640GB, Samsung 850 500GB, My Book 4TB
#4352482 - 04/21/17 09:03 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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G.SKILL TridentZ Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Intel Z170 Platform Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GTZKY

I did try tweaking the voltage. However, the BIOS commands are not completely clear as to what is truly being changed at a given moment. The ASUS MB I started with (now gone on RMA) had a clearer/easier to read/understand advanced BIOS interface.

The BIOS does, with one click, read the memory itself for its operating parameters and claims to set those (correctly ?). Does not work with this memory.

Lesser manual settings have not worked.

The MB has two BIOS chips. Two switches are used to have both on, or one on, and, if one, pick which one. I have one BIOS chip operating and picked (latest BIOS as of a few days ago). Maybe that's causing some issue.

Naturally, I'll accept help from folks who have already figured this one out. But, I'm not discouraged. Part of the fun is solving the problems (after they are solved smile ). And, I knew I was "taking a chance" buying the first products off the production line smile

I imagine in a couple months, buying and building will be a trouble free experience -- as products will be updated to work together -- and compatible/incompatible products will be clearly listed. My exact memory was not listed as supported. However, Much GSkill of similar type (but lower capacity) was listed as okay -- so I took a chance.

To get less than the Specified 3200MHz is not unexpected. To get no increase at all -- even to only 2400MHz is unexpected.


Edit: This problem may be related to my problem. As I get "NOTHING" when I try to boot -- dies in a few seconds.

Quote
...DRAM boot voltage is important as it can help solve cold boot issues. Cold boot issues are issues where you shutdown the computer and leave it off for awhile or unplug the power cable and plug it back in and suddenly causing post issues when you try to turn it on. ..

Last edited by Allen; 04/21/17 09:43 AM. Reason: New Info

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352491 - 04/21/17 10:07 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Hooray!

I tried to reset the boot DDR4 memory voltage in BIOS. I do not know if that worked because concurrently (never do concurrent in an experiment if you really want to know -- but I'm impatient at times):

I did the "obvious" thing that I had been reluctant to do. I used the AMD Ryzen Master overclocking application by AMD. The downside is that I've admitted to overclocking. So, they've got me if I fry it.

It was easy to set memory timings and do a slight overclock from 2166 to 2400 -- that's a start. I'll see where it goes from here. Goal 3200 -- but, I'll settle for less given that I did not buy guaranteed compatibility memory.


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352507 - 04/21/17 11:30 AM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Stream of consciousness update:

Got to 2666MHz okay. Failed at next allowed setting of nominally 3000MHz. I read that the timing on AMD Ryzen motherboards defaults to 1T and that works to 2666MHz. One must lock 2T to get above 2666GHz, in most cases. So far, I can't find that setting in the AMD app or the BIOS -- but its only been minutes of trying.

Last edited by Allen; 04/21/17 12:30 PM.

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352514 - 04/21/17 12:22 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Done memory overclocking for now. So, in summary of above.

Running CPU at 4.0GHz using AMD Ryzen Master application.

Memory went from 2166MHz at 16 CAS (and other timings) to 2666MHz at 14CAS (on memory rated 3200MHz at 14CAS). I got about a 2 percent improvement in CPU performance (at best) by overclocking the memory. That's in-line with what I've read. If I could get to 3200MHz, I read that would supply about 4 percent -- equivalent to another 0.160GHz of CPU overclock.

I still need to figure out how to set timing to 2T on my motherboard -- on-line statements indicate that I could get to the full 3200MHz 14CAS if I get 2T.

In Prime95 stress test for memory stress, I got no errors. The CPU only hit 50C with all the cores at 100 percent -- the CPU set its nominal voltage to only 0.9V (down from the allowed 1.35V maximum) -- but, each core runs at a different voltage . The memory increased from 34C to 39C.

So, some slight success. I'll let it run like this for a couple days or more.

But, to state the obvious, the improvements I've noticed with overclocking are "invisible to the unaided eye", they are only "measurable". So, at some point I might just revert to stock settings -- as I usually do with my builds.

Last edited by Allen; 04/21/17 12:29 PM. Reason: put Gs where Ms should have been

RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352603 - 04/21/17 04:24 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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I retried the Time Spy benchmark with the overclocked memory. The memory overclock alone added 10 percent to the CPU score. The GPU score was essentially the same. Since Time Spy is "new technology" DX12, etc., its hopeful that Ryzen may out perform on newer gaming titles that need CPU power.

So, it seems the articles are correct. At times, the extra memory speed does transfer to substantially better Ryzen CPU performance. But, it depends on the test one runs.


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
#4352646 - 04/21/17 05:56 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Thanks for sharing your results, Allen. I hope to test the same in the future. I read that AMD is planning an AGESA release next month to improve DDR4 overclocking:

http://hothardware.com/news/amd-prepares-beefy-ryzen-motherboard-bios-updates#iZjsZ7P7UyOSvR8P.99

#4352663 - 04/21/17 08:10 PM Re: My AMD Ryzen Build [Re: Allen]  
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Thanks for the news and the link. Now, I know better times are coming -- soon. It helps my "peace of mind".

Got me to go to Gigabyte site to see if they already have the update. No. HOWEVER, they have a new overclocking guide for my motherboard -- that was not there before.

In brief, it says the problems I thought might be problems ARE problems. Can't easily get past 2666MHz because the 1T timing is unchangeable for now. That also puts my mind at ease because I thought I was "missing something easy".

So, thanks again thumbsup


RX5700XT 50th Anniversary - 3 monitors = 23P (1080p) + 43"L (2160p) + 23P (1080p), AMD Ryzen 7 5800X, 32GB RAM@3.2GHz, Gigabyte X570 AORUS Pro WIFI MB, (2x M.2 SSD on MB + SSD + 5x HD) = 25TB storage, Rosewill 1050W PSU, Rosewill Thor V2 Case, ASUS AC86U router, VKB Gladiator WW2 Stick, Pedals, Ripjaws KM780 RGB KB, AORUS Thunder M7 Mouse, W10 Pro
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Criterion Collection BR/DVD sale
by Patrocles. 11/24/20 03:26 PM
Ex Nazi can be deported
by NoFlyBoy. 11/23/20 11:10 PM
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