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#4351854 - 04/18/17 01:49 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Seems like 580 reviews show it's basically just a slight tuning of the 480 ~10-15% benefit... AMD is getting as bad as NV in misleading gen numbers that suggest next generation but are really slightly tweaked rebrand of the previous card...



Still hoping they have a true "680" next gen card and that the 580 is not all there is.


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#4351860 - 04/18/17 02:01 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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The RX580 was always "sold" as an updated RX480 by AMD. The GPU chip is Polaris 20 vs Polaris 10 (in RX480). Just a few tweaks and a speed boost.

The days of 50 percent improvement per year are gone. Now, chips only improve about 10 percent per year.

Need a new chip design to get a real jump. And, truly new designs take 2 to 4 years to produce.

That's Vega. AMD is "selling" Vega as the next big thing. Nothing official, but I'm expecting roughly 100 percent better performance than RX480 (in DX12 graphics benchmarks -- games can be CPU limited) -- for a price (to be determined). AMD Vega arrives in 6 or 7 weeks smile

Long term, AMD Navi in 2019 (??) is a whole new approach to speed. From what the rumors say, it seems feasible to get "virtually unlimited" speed boosts with the AMD Navi concept (at a lower cost per FPS). But, that's 2 years away (or more) -- at least, there is something to look forward to after Vega smile


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#4351865 - 04/18/17 02:10 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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It might have been sold as an updated 480 to AMD knowledgeable folks like you biggrin , but for ignoramuses like me, a major version number update like RX 480 > 580 or GTX 670 > 770 would usually signify a major improvement, so I am disappointed like I was with the GTX670>770.

Endlessly waiting for the next AMD killer card like my beloved 5870 RIP...


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#4351876 - 04/18/17 02:48 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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You know what really grinds my gears?

That AMD is still churning out new GPUs to compete with the lower tier high end of the competition.

Yeah, yeah...Vega and all that....

It better deliver, and it better have flawless driver support at release (apparently RX580 only runs at the moment with the drivers in the box)....or they will lose a lot of momentum.

Navi is too far. They need a better more impressive flagship product.

#4351879 - 04/18/17 02:54 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: Bib4Tuna]  
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Originally Posted by Bib4Tuna
You know what really grinds my gears?

That AMD is still churning out new GPUs to compete with the lower tier high end of the competition.

Yeah, yeah...Vega and all that....

It better deliver, and it better have flawless driver support at release (apparently RX580 only runs at the moment with the drivers in the box)....or they will lose a lot of momentum.

Navi is too far. They need a better more impressive flagship product.


My feelings exactly!

I don't care about products that compete with the middle of the competition and beat them at price, I care about products that compete at the top end like they did in the ATI days... when they kicked Nvidia's butt.

I still have my Cooler Master HAF 932 AMD Edition case from when the 5870 was king, and sadly there's not been a top end AMD GPU worthy of it since then... although I always keep hope that AMD will come up with another awesome flaship that wins me back...
http://www.legitreviews.com/cooler-master-haf-932-amd-edition-full-tower-case-review_1239



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#4351907 - 04/18/17 04:53 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: kludger]  
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Originally Posted by kludger
.. a major version number update like RX 480 > 580 or GTX 670 > 770 would usually signify a major improvement.,,


It used to be that way. But, now its changed.

AMD, Nvidia, Intel have been changing names/designations for minor performance improvements for a few years now. When that first started there was "frustration". Now, its normal. As noted elsewhere, Intel CPUs only pick up about 10 percent per year and Intel in-CPU graphics have always been and remain poor. Nvidia does what it has to to stay ahead of AMD in FPS -- but at a price to consumers. And Nvidia does not make a decent CPU device (they do make non-x86 CPUs -- but they are not "special").

Still, all 3 of the big 3 should come up with something truly new on a 3 or 4 year schedule for the near future. Sometimes, the schedules overlap so there is less time between. But, AMD has less money to spend and must update CPUs and GPUs; so, they update each less frequently.

That said, we are reaching the end of what is physically possible with downsizing chip architecture. 7nm is the next big thing. 3nm is probably as small as it will EVER get. AMD is skipping 10nm and going straight to 7nm, it is said. If they succeed, they may actually surpass Intel and Nvidia (who are going slower). Thing is Intel and Nvidia will not "sit still" and let AMD get past them. So, I imagine all three will be performing "close to one another" in the future. Soon (2 or 4 years), it will nearly-always come down to price. Is that extra 10 percent FPS worth a new purchase or 30 percent more cash when choosing between brands?? (My opinion)

Competition is good smile


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#4351922 - 04/18/17 05:47 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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The Entry and Mid Level Marketshares are larger.

The High Performance Marketshare and demand is a fraction of those.

Fight nVidia for half of a small pc of the pie, or fight nVidia for half of the larger pc of the pie.


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#4351932 - 04/18/17 06:11 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla
The Entry and Mid Level Marketshares are larger.

The High Performance Marketshare and demand is a fraction of those.

Fight nVidia for half of a small pc of the pie, or fight nVidia for half of the larger pc of the pie.


No problem with that...but then DOMINATE mid level. Prices drive a segment of consumers (and manufacturers), but reputation and performance drives the majority.

When you read a RX580 review that concludes that in the performance category you get better value (not price) with a 1060, the whole brand suffers.

If Vega ends up being a "good alternative to the 1070" then that's it, Because by then 1070's will be dirt cheap and Nvidia has a new architecture ready for Q3.

If (as Allen said) by the time Navi comes out things pair out, consumers will go with the brand they are familiar with. Consumers do that a lot, you know?

God knows that is why I keep buying ATI/AMD GPUs!



Last edited by Bib4Tuna; 04/18/17 06:11 PM.
#4352137 - 04/19/17 06:07 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Users are Flashing RX4xx w/ RX5xx BIOS's, lol..


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#4352154 - 04/19/17 07:00 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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More competition smile

Quote
RUMOR: NVIDIA Prepping New GeForce GTX 20 Series Graphics Cards Based on Volta Architecture for Q3 2017 Launch

..Since we haven’t heard anything else from any other source, I will be marking this one as a rumor till additional information is received..

Report: NVIDIA has pushed forward GeForce GTX 20-Series launch, GTX 2070 and GTX 2080 graphics cards launching in Q3 2017?

..NVIDIA will be doing some basic optimizations of the SM in the GeForce 20 series, but don’t expect a complete overhaul...


Based on the words in the mostly-Rumor, I only expect 10 plus percent (e.g. maybe 15%) FPS versus the current top end 1080 cards (in Benchmarks) -- not 50 percent or 100 percent. Much like going from RX480 to RX580. We'll see.

Meantime, anything that may make Vega cheaper for me or current GTX products cheaper for Nvidia fans is good smile

Competition is good smile


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#4352391 - 04/20/17 07:55 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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First AMD Ryzen Mini-ITX Motherboards Launched By BIOSTAR – RACING X370GTN And B350GTN

The very first AMD Ryzen Mini-ITX motherboards are finally here and they bring an impressive set of features at genuinely attractive pricing...


Article


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#4352584 - 04/21/17 03:15 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Prices of FX Chips finally starting to hit clearance.... prolly due to Ryzen 5 more than Ryzen 7.

Got a Friend a FX8300 for $75 after Coupon Codes, and FX8350 for $89.

Weird how NewEgg started Locking Coupon Codes to Email Addresses now, I tried to just give said person the code, but it wouldnt work, so I ordered and he gave me the money.

Might pickup another FX8300 to replace my brother's PhenomII (which was an FX8120 before the chip got stuck to Corsair H100 Water Block and cracked.)

He's Hating only having 2 threads, lol.


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#4352667 - 04/21/17 08:41 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Competition is good. Heated competition is better smile

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Intel’s Monstrous 12 Core / 24 Thread HEDT Skylake-X Processor Confirmed – Will Debut On 30th May In Intel Keynote, Availability By End of June


Why would they be doing this? They were already going to release a 10 core to beat AMD!

Oh, this is why (from the same article):

Quote
..This move is something that can be categorized as unprecedented from Intel and can be cautiously allocated as a reaction to AMD’s Ryzen. Or more specifically the looming threat of bigger and faster Ryzen processors with even more cores in bound. Remember that word on the grapevine is that AMD is planning on releasing its 16-core Ryzen CPU and the X399 platform in the 3rd quarter of 2017 for the gaming market. ...


Note the words: "for the gaming market". Even 12 cores will not be enough because AMD is putting out 16 (and we know they are competitive cores -- both speed and power used). A time for AMD fans to smile. But, does this mean I have to buy a Ryzen 16 core this Fall? I hope so. smile


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#4352738 - 04/22/17 04:36 AM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: Allen]  
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I may be dumb man BUT, aren't most games/sims optimized for Intel/nVidia ?

Doesn't that make this whole "save a couple hundred bucks" approach to system building...well, silly?



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#4352760 - 04/22/17 09:17 AM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: Nixer]  
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Originally Posted by Nixer
I may be dumb man BUT, aren't most games/sims optimized for Intel/nVidia ?

Doesn't that make this whole "save a couple hundred bucks" approach to system building...well, silly?


Yes, games and nearly every other application have been developed day-to-day on Intel/Nvidia hardware. So, problems with those two are "immediately" noted and fixed. Moreover, for bigger titles, Nvidia almost always helped with the graphics programming. Even an Nvidia Engineer once said (paraphrased) "they put their thumb on the scale" to make sure Nvidia scored best. Even now many use Intel optimized compilers that default to less optimum code for AMD products.Moreover, developers look to "save development cash" (as an ex-Project Manager, I know how costs spiral up out of control on many projects -- not mine, of course smile ). One way to save money is to develop on the dominant hardware and virtually ignore the competition (AMD) -- which saves person-years of effort.

The deck has really been stacked. AMD hardware is not as bad as it seems. Often AMD was a couple years ahead in actual features -- but few or no-one used them because Intel/Nvidia could not support them (tessellation comes to mind). AMD is/was ahead of Nvidia in DX12 and Vulcan graphics language support. Meantime, new Intel/Nvidia features are supported within months. Its always been "uphill" for AMD.

Up to now, if one was totally objective and price conscious, one could get a competitive gaming machine buying AMD products and save cash. I did -- of course I built so many machines just for fun that I spent more in-total than a price conscious Intel/Nvidia fan. If one wanted the highest performance regardless of cost, then Intel/Nvidia was the way to go and still is in April 2017 -- while most games and benchmarks are still Intel 4core optimized and Vega is not "on the street" (expected in 6 weeks).

However, that is changing. Ryzen works as well as the Intel products now -- maybe a little better or a little worse depending on the tests. But, this is Ryzen's first product on the street for less than two months. It will get better during its first year. I expect Intel/Nvidia to be competitive hardware-wise but not overwhelmingly so -- just competitive.

In 6 weeks, we'll begin to see Vega growing pains. But, Vega is not a brand new path for AMD. Its the old-path perfected. AMD Navi GPU due in 2019 will be the "new approach" that Ryzen was for CPUs. Nvidia needs to have an answer just to stay competitive.

Regarding software. Some game companies are starting to work with AMD -- the major consoles are AMD 8 core CPU units with AMD GPUs -- these days most games are Console-First, PC-ported. With a popular high core count Ryzen on the streets (and Intel caving in to provide high core count gaming CPUs) high core count is where it is headed for gaming. Those Intel 4 core units will no longer be the best -- and Intel knows that. AMD actually leads that race. Intel will be competitive -- they won't lose -- but, they will no longer "stand alone" at the head of the pack. If no big problems arise, they and Nvidia will have strong AMD competition across the board by the end of this year.

AMD has a plan in place that, if successful, will jump them just slightly past Intel/Nvidia in two or three years (e.g. Navi and very high core count 7nm CPUs) -- across the board in all product lines gamers care about. Not enough to turn off Intel/Nvidia fans, but enough to be a solid part of the conversation and have their products equally well supported. Then, it will come down to merchandising and price. AMD will probably hold prices down to catch the eye of the Intel/Nvida fans. Of course, Intel/Nvidia could drop their prices too and will at some point.

So, we are at the edge of the "new era" where Intel/Nvidia has serious competition and will have to "step up". Who will win? I don't predict which company (though I see some near term technical pluses for AMD -- offset by Intel/Nvida cash and brand awareness). I predict the winners will be the customers, the gamers. They will get more for less than they would have if Intel/Nvidia had been unchallenged.

All the above is my non-expert opinion, of course smile

Competition is good smile

Last edited by Allen; 04/22/17 09:26 AM.

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#4352764 - 04/22/17 11:37 AM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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I appreciate that the post above is caveated by alluding to that it's your opinion however, there are a few factual areas that don't necessarily go hand in hand;

Game companies have been working for a long time with AMD, especially the console companies and it's not as if these AMD powered consoles have just been released. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that Nvidia suddenly needs an answer just to stay competitive.....they already have an answer but it's just overpriced, the 'answer' is also not currently required because the overwhelming number of games currently available and in development still aren't geared for high cpu core counts. You talk/post as if AMD have magically got 50% market share and from this point on, it's all dependent on how Nvidia react to Ryzen and their yet unreleased graphics cards - we all know that isn't the case and AMD are yet to reach that point which will take a number of years anyway as it's certainly not going to happen overnight.

To that end, it's also very premature to suggest that Intel 4 core units will no longer be the best. Until the games start to optimise the high core counts in any CPU the Intel quad core chips in the i5/i7 range are still out there in the lead due to the higher processing speeds and even when you go back down the Ryzen range there isn't much of a price difference for the performance output. As for AMD 'leading the race'....hardly. You are also seemingly referring to AMD current and future products against competing Intel products from only today. You're already aware of Intel announcing higher cpu count chips for desktops, so the future is very much unknown as to how this will pan out and whether AMD will actually make in-roads to the market share. Like anyone, I also feel that the competition between the two companies is good and will hopefully bring these silly prices down but at the same time I haven't seen anything yet that suggests AMD are doing anything different to what we've seen in the last 5 years where they hype everything so much but fail to deliver and support especially within drivers has often let their products down. Given that you have a 8+ page diary of your Ryzen install (much of which includes problems) isn't necessarily a good sign either. I'm sure many other people including myself have built Intel/Nvidia rigs at the same time as you with no fanfare, no problems but just a very good gaming rig for the money that is currently playing all games without any issues at all.

Opinions are great, but you can only go so far with the rose tints!


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#4352781 - 04/22/17 01:39 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
I appreciate that the post above is caveated by alluding to that it's your opinion however, there are a few factual areas that don't necessarily go hand in hand...


Much of your facts are correct. But, in some cases, your interpretation of my opinion is not exactly what I meant. That's the problem with written words. We each interpret differently the same texts.

Consoles have been around a long time. But, developers continued to develop on Intel/Nvidia hardware and move it to the console. That is happening less often -- was my meaning.

No, AMD is not assured of 50 percent market share (they did have 50 for a time in GPUs -- did not last long). Rather, the point is: AMD products will be technically competitive -- objective folks will have to flip a coin to select the best overall product. That will NOT give them 50 percent market share, however. If AMD improves market share by 10 percentage points, that will be a HUGE increase for them -- going from 30% to 40% in some facet would be 33 percent more business for them (a huge increase for them). Meanwhile, the competitors have big operations that have inertia and big fixed costs. If they lose 10 percentage points of part or all of their business, that could be a real blow -- going down hill is not fun for management.

Yes, as I underlined, if you want the BEST today (April 22, 2017) for "today's and yesterday's games" -- buy Intel/Nvidia. However, I believe the choice will not be so obvious in a year (or so) for new high-end games -- particularly if one is objective and realizes 10 percent more FPS means little to the "unaided eye", and CPUs and GPUs do more than FPS these days.

And so on. I'm sure if we sat across the table and discussed what each of us mean in detail, we'd have a lot of agreement. Thing is a few hundred words are not enough to clearly outline all the factors in play -- such that we won't have misunderstandings.

And, this is the AMD thread -- so, rose tint is what you get smile

That said, we do try to be "relatively objective" when predicting the AMD future (Bulldozer was a bomb, AMD GPUs have been quite good -- but, Nvidia always gives more FPS at the top end because they MUST as part of their marketing and brand recognition strategy, regardless of cost). All along we've been saying "we'll see" if any of the rumors are near true. Now we are seeing. Actually, Ryzen came out much better than I expected. Moreover, I thought it would be a couple years before we saw 16 cores for the gaming desktop -- now they are rumoring Fall 2017. Much better than this Fan expected smile

And, yes, the first months of a new product can be "frustrating" (again all applications, games, and components are designed for Intel first, so issues are expected with AMD). If fighting through the issues is no fun for a person, they should wait about 6+ months for the "second version" (the one with the fixes already fixed). A year from now, the problems will be year old news smile

Just my opinions -- actually my glasses have an amber tint, literally smile


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#4352790 - 04/22/17 03:15 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Yeah, I think we are pretty much aligned in our thoughts (minus the AMD tints in my case wink , but that's not to say I'm on the other side of the fence at all - I'll always go for price/performance regardless of the brand)

Although, one thing I would say is that AMD have always being 'technologically competitive' if not always a step ahead, it's just that the market share will drive other companies to probably look at Nvidia first and ensure that performance is optimised for them in order to keep the majority of the target audience happy.......and there's always the danger that this will continue to happen until that market share is spread more evenly. The real danger is that Nvidia/Intel have the ability to drop their prices to ensure that AMD don't have the ability to attract new customers and catch up so the current situation will never really change.

I think that only a major game-changer from AMD will turn things around and I don't think Ryzen is really going to do it, and I have doubts the more I hear about Vega/Volta. I do think that the AMD fans tend to get more excited about the huge performance leaps of this new kit and blow it out of proportion when really we're just seeing equivalent products to the competition, something that hasn't happened for a number of years. The problem is that Intel/Nvidia aren't standing still either.


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#4352810 - 04/22/17 05:08 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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SkateZilla Offline
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Seeing as AMD has to pay Intel for the x86 License.... anything they develop for that license is open for Intel to take.


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#4352826 - 04/22/17 06:47 PM Re: The Future And Current Status of AMD... [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Paradaz  Offline
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I very much doubt that Skate because if that were the case then Intel would have ensured that Apple aren't in the position they currently find themselves in and the AMD64 extensions wouldn't named the way they are.....however if that's down to Intel's original 8086/88 architecture and development then they've done all the hard work to put themselves into that position in the first place.

Edit: And a 2 minute check shows your statement to be nonsense because it's a cross-license agreement between Intel x86 and AMD's 64-bit x86 instruction set.


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