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#4344398 - 03/14/17 08:57 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master


The difference is if that car has a literal 20 year old chassis inside the new body.


Sure. But if the new car has only 3 wheels, the side window missing, no rearview mirror, and 2 of the cylinders not working but they expect you to give them full price now...and they "promise" they will finish it later? Not to mention you see them working on the next 3 wheeled wonder when yours isn't finished yet? lol

I guess some of us would rather have the one that runs smooth and is complete.

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#4344408 - 03/14/17 10:30 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Originally Posted by SkateZilla
BMS is Only Free if you legally purchased Falcon 4.0
DCS is Free to play if you dont mind being limited to the Su-25T and Caucasus.

*gasp!!* *horror!!*
£8.09 for the Falcon Collection on GoG or £6.99 on Steam...
£4.99 for just Falcon 4.0 on Steam...
How dare they require that you need to LEGALLY purchase Falcon 4.0? The nerve of those unpaid modders having to bow down to the IP holder of Falcon!! The nerve of them, doing work for free, but asking **US** to fork over our hard-earned money!!

And what do you get for all of that cash? Just one... **ONE** multi-role aircraft!! Three campaigns. A few other theatres with campaigns too. Multiplayer. Are you **REALLY** getting good value for your money there?


Let's compare that to the awesome FREE offer by DCS...
One big, big, BIG!! map that's been around since.... LOMAC?
One A-G Russian attack aircraft and an unarmed P-51!!
Any campaigns? Any other theatres? Oh, those are DLC for the low, low price of $10 per campaign DLC with limited replayability and $30-$60 for each additional aircraft and $45-$50 for each new terrain.

After all, these devs have mouths to feed and bills to pay and all the work that they do fixing the stuff that was broken when they tried fixing the stuff that was broken when they tried fixing the stuff that was broken.... it's all fair, right?



I dunno,

i know alot of airforce pilots, and they dont see the different F-16 Blocks as "ONE" Aircraft.....


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#4344417 - 03/14/17 11:11 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted by CyBerkut
Wherever you feel it fits into the continuum, there is also Combat Air Patrol 2.


Is CAP2 being done by those involved with the last version of Combat Air Patrol? I can't imagine someone unrelated to Kinnney's Mad Catz team would expend the required effort. Did you SEE Combat Air Patrol before MadCatz shut it down?

#4344418 - 03/14/17 11:15 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla
I dunno,

i know alot of airforce pilots, and they dont see the different F-16 Blocks as "ONE" Aircraft.....

And I don't know how you missed the sarcasm of the entire post.....


- Ice
#4344462 - 03/15/17 03:37 AM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.

What we have currently with DCSW is a few modding teams trying to "glue things" onto the old code and new code. The difference is these jokers are charging $50 for their half finished 'mod' and hoping they make enough money to finish their modding projects. The majority of the DCS 3rd party teams are not professional studios. They are part time modders and it shows. Folk want to charge $50 for their part time project they better have thick skins. VEAO have very thin skins. They couldn't handle the criticism of their very expensive mod. "Were not talking to you guys anymore" and they're not the only ones. ED don't know their own roadmap. It's as if they're throwing darts at their to do list "ok everybody it's Normandy this month" it's all a bit of a joke isn't it. Why prioritize Normandy when it's the black sea map that's holding up the unifying process? Nothing about DCSW makes much sense to me anymore. It all seems very unprofessional.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 03/15/17 03:40 AM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4344524 - 03/15/17 01:18 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Yet there's no alternatives.

CAP2 is still incomplete, far more than others, and there's no guarantee it will be finished. SF2 is dead, there will be no SF3.
FSX/P3D were never meant for combat, the last engine that could do it right was CFS3's and that's OLD now. CFS4 looked to have some good updates to it, but the code for that is buried in Redmond and will never see the light of day, and it's old now too anyway.
BMS isn't professional because it's not commercial.
EECH isn't professional.

ED is literally the only proven game in town, but since they've had the other side to keep them going we have no idea if they'd still be here if they were commercial alone. It's quite possible they'd have gone under long ago and we'd have nothing but mods of old sims.


I haven't bought a used car in 25 years. I will never trust that whoever came before didn't abuse it to the point that it will fall apart early and perform poorly. I only buy new cars, then keep them for a dozen years or so until I'm tired of them.
Similarly, I have no interest in BMS because it's still F4. I put hundreds of hours into F4. I'm done with it. I barely put that much time into F4: AF because it felt just like F4 with a new theater...which didn't feel that different.

I am blessed/cursed with a very good memory. I can't play a game with a story like Skyrim or Deus Ex or even Doom and then play it again until at least 3 years have passed, maybe more. Even then I remember large amounts of the game. I played Bioshock on release, didn't play it a second time until the recent Remastered release and I remembered pretty much the whole thing. It looked better, but it still felt like I'd done it all before. It was disappointing.




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#4344534 - 03/15/17 01:39 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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When were talking CFS repetition is the name of the game. Unless theres a DC everything is repetition. Throw $10 down on a campaig tt has no replay value. This is one of the many reasons CFS are a niche. Its all been done before the coating is all that changes. There is no alternative is subjective. To a lot of folk there are alternatives. There is nothing new with DCS just as there is nothing new with call of duty 5 or whatever number theyre up to. The gaming industry, like all the entertainment industry is lacking any real innovation apart from the marketing trend of releasing half finished products for full price under ghe guise of early access. Which all boils down to money. Devs can say 'we're doing it for our fans' all they like. I dont buy that. Its for the money. The mkdders who mod old games do it because they found something about that game they really liked. At the end of the day theyre doing it for themselves.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 03/15/17 02:01 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4344635 - 03/15/17 07:47 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Yet there's no alternatives.

CAP2 is still incomplete, far more than others, and there's no guarantee it will be finished. SF2 is dead, there will be no SF3.
FSX/P3D were never meant for combat, the last engine that could do it right was CFS3's and that's OLD now. CFS4 looked to have some good updates to it, but the code for that is buried in Redmond and will never see the light of day, and it's old now too anyway.
BMS isn't professional because it's not commercial.
EECH isn't professional.

ED is literally the only proven game in town, but since they've had the other side to keep them going we have no idea if they'd still be here if they were commercial alone. It's quite possible they'd have gone under long ago and we'd have nothing but mods of old sims.

Again, what is the criteria for "alternatives"? BMS isn't professional because it's not commercial? Yet they act more "professional" than your paid devs...

If your criteria for "modern combat flight simulator" is that it has to be 1) commercial, 2) actively being developed, and 3) you can shoot missiles, then DCS makes the cut but so does XP11.

link

If the criteria is that it covers 1) modern aircraft, 2) actively being developed, and 3) you can shoot missiles, then BMS makes the cut. So please, someone clarify what the criteria is here... and please, let's not delude ourselves. Just because Group A is doing the work for free and Group B is asking for payment for the work done does **NOT** make Group B "professional." It just means Group A is willing to work for passion whereas Group B works for financial gain. If tomorrow, the BMS devs release 4.34 but now charge £20 for a copy, will *THAT* mean it is now an "alternative" to DCS? Pfft!!


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Similarly, I have no interest in BMS because it's still F4. I put hundreds of hours into F4. I'm done with it. I barely put that much time into F4: AF because it felt just like F4 with a new theater...which didn't feel that different.

And how is DCS different from LOMAC? How has DCS World changed over the past 7 years? Sure, you'll have the Warthog, then you'll have the Black Shark, then you'll have the MiG-21.... but that simply means you like switching airframes.

You don't like F4 despite having new theatres but you like DCS despite having the same theatre for over a decade?


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
I am blessed/cursed with a very good memory. I can't play a game with a story like Skyrim or Deus Ex or even Doom and then play it again until at least 3 years have passed, maybe more. Even then I remember large amounts of the game. I played Bioshock on release, didn't play it a second time until the recent Remastered release and I remembered pretty much the whole thing. It looked better, but it still felt like I'd done it all before. It was disappointing.

So how does this "very good memory" deal with the limited replayability of DCS missions and campaigns? Compared with the BMS campaign engine, you could play the same campaign twice... on one run you'll concentrate on flying out of Kunsan and dealing with the western side of the theatre and on the second run of the SAME campaign, you'll concentrate on flying out of Pohang or Taegu and dealing with the eastern side of the theatre. No matter how good your memory is, I doubt you'll be playing the same game twice.


- Ice
#4344643 - 03/15/17 08:42 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Do you use Windows Professional because it acts better than Windows Home? Is Windows Home amateurish, petty, and sitting around in sweat pants all day? Do you believe Windows Enterprise makes money if you use it?
You are using the wrong definition of professional. I am using the one that MS uses to label Windows. Behavior is irrelevant. If they are not being paid as a company, they are amateurs.
If you have 10,000 hours flying but retired and now just do it for fun, you are an amateur. If you just completed flight school and are earning $30k flying puddle jumpers 100 miles out and back and don't even have 500 hours yet, you're still a professional. ED is a corporation with officers and payroll. BMS is not. Ergo ED is professional, and BMS is not, nor are any others any longer since SF2 and company are gone. CAP2 is an unknown as it's unreleased (early access can still collapse and people who bought will have an unfinished product).

Simple answer--in over 20 years i've put in less than 100 hours into LOMAC/Flanker/DCS. Why? Because I can't get into it for long before its shortcoming irk me and I stop flying it, usually it for several months at a time. So despite its age, it actually feels fresh. I have played in all these years ONE campaign mission in Flanker, LOMAC, and DCS combined! I got frustrated and didn't try another one. I just fly single missions in MP and generally quick missions offline. Then I don't fly again for a week or so. This has kept it alive in my mind.

I put more time than that into F4 before F4:AF was even released. With the RPs and SPs, and then F4:AF, and then RV, I'm just done. I probably put in close to 1000 hours in the first 10 years. It holds no appeal any longer.

If you told someone you loved movies, and they asked you which ones you like and you say "Top Gun", and when they ask what else you respond "I just like Top Gun and watch it every day, I don't watch other movies because I think Top Gun is the best one", do you not think people will find that strange?
I've seen Top Gun. I know it inside and out, backwards and forwards. I don't need to watch it again. I WILL complain that Red Tails and Flyboys and Pearl Harbor had lackluster air combat and lament it needs to be done better next time, but if someone says "Why don't you watch Top Gun instead??" I will NOT take that seriously.

I'm not saying BMS isn't good for the people who like it. I'm saying it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Trying to convince me that I haven't seen Top Gun, not really, not until I sit on this couch and watch it on this new TV that's curved and thin with upscaling to 4K and 7.1 surround sound, and I really should watch it again won't work. I have still seen it a million times.




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#4344648 - 03/15/17 09:01 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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I get what you're saying Jedi...but for everyone that fly's the F4 campaign...the dynamic nature makes it different every time.

But yeah...if you're tired of the airframe then that's that.


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#4344660 - 03/15/17 09:47 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
The difference is these jokers are charging $50 for their half finished 'mod' and hoping they make enough money to finish their modding projects.


This is the problem for me...I don't think they actually intend to 'finish' these modules anymore. They may make a token effort to sort some of the bigger problems out but once they have the money off the customers they're happy to move onto the next module........get it in a state that they can class as 'early access' and take more money, what's the point in 'finishing' these modules when people are stupid enough to throw money at them with the minimal amount of effort put into it.

I'm all but done with this mess. If the gifting system were still in place I'd have given away all the modules bar the Shark and Huey, the only reason they still attract my attention once in a blue moon is the ability to put the rift headset on and go sightseeing over the terrain I'm already familiar with over the last 15 years. I'll keep my eyes on (lack of) progress but absolutely refuse to put a single penny in EDs direction until there are massive changes and/or any module ever gets completed. Massive, wasted opportunity on ED's part.




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#4344709 - 03/16/17 06:59 AM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Do you use Windows Professional because it acts better than Windows Home? Is Windows Home amateurish, petty, and sitting around in sweat pants all day? Do you believe Windows Enterprise makes money if you use it?
You are using the wrong definition of professional. I am using the one that MS uses to label Windows. Behavior is irrelevant. If they are not being paid as a company, they are amateurs.
If you have 10,000 hours flying but retired and now just do it for fun, you are an amateur. If you just completed flight school and are earning $30k flying puddle jumpers 100 miles out and back and don't even have 500 hours yet, you're still a professional. ED is a corporation with officers and payroll. BMS is not. Ergo ED is professional, and BMS is not, nor are any others any longer since SF2 and company are gone. CAP2 is an unknown as it's unreleased (early access can still collapse and people who bought will have an unfinished product).

Simple answer--in over 20 years i've put in less than 100 hours into LOMAC/Flanker/DCS. Why? Because I can't get into it for long before its shortcoming irk me and I stop flying it, usually it for several months at a time. So despite its age, it actually feels fresh. I have played in all these years ONE campaign mission in Flanker, LOMAC, and DCS combined! I got frustrated and didn't try another one. I just fly single missions in MP and generally quick missions offline. Then I don't fly again for a week or so. This has kept it alive in my mind.

I put more time than that into F4 before F4:AF was even released. With the RPs and SPs, and then F4:AF, and then RV, I'm just done. I probably put in close to 1000 hours in the first 10 years. It holds no appeal any longer.

If you told someone you loved movies, and they asked you which ones you like and you say "Top Gun", and when they ask what else you respond "I just like Top Gun and watch it every day, I don't watch other movies because I think Top Gun is the best one", do you not think people will find that strange?
I've seen Top Gun. I know it inside and out, backwards and forwards. I don't need to watch it again. I WILL complain that Red Tails and Flyboys and Pearl Harbor had lackluster air combat and lament it needs to be done better next time, but if someone says "Why don't you watch Top Gun instead??" I will NOT take that seriously.

I'm not saying BMS isn't good for the people who like it. I'm saying it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Trying to convince me that I haven't seen Top Gun, not really, not until I sit on this couch and watch it on this new TV that's curved and thin with upscaling to 4K and 7.1 surround sound, and I really should watch it again won't work. I have still seen it a million times.




The Jedi Master


You must agree that is "to each his own". I played since Lomac all ED products and I have maybe thousands of hours on them. BMS? ZERO! I tried it once long time ago.Started and stop it immediately. I've seen a lot of movies of gameplay. I'd rather play crosswords (which I never do).

#4344722 - 03/16/17 10:55 AM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted by Paradaz
Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
The difference is these jokers are charging $50 for their half finished 'mod' and hoping they make enough money to finish their modding projects.


This is the problem for me...I don't think they actually intend to 'finish' these modules anymore. They may make a token effort to sort some of the bigger problems out but once they have the money off the customers they're happy to move onto the next module........get it in a state that they can class as 'early access' and take more money, what's the point in 'finishing' these modules when people are stupid enough to throw money at them with the minimal amount of effort put into it.

I'm all but done with this mess. If the gifting system were still in place I'd have given away all the modules bar the Shark and Huey, the only reason they still attract my attention once in a blue moon is the ability to put the rift headset on and go sightseeing over the terrain I'm already familiar with over the last 15 years. I'll keep my eyes on (lack of) progress but absolutely refuse to put a single penny in EDs direction until there are massive changes and/or any module ever gets completed. Massive, wasted opportunity on ED's part.




Thats a pretty much spot on assessment , see my signature

Once they have gotten the money your bargining power is zero , they have no motivation to sort stuff out or even finish it
take the money and run



Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4344731 - 03/16/17 12:11 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Do you use Windows Professional because it acts better than Windows Home? Is Windows Home amateurish, petty, and sitting around in sweat pants all day? Do you believe Windows Enterprise makes money if you use it?
You are using the wrong definition of professional. I am using the one that MS uses to label Windows. Behavior is irrelevant. If they are not being paid as a company, they are amateurs.
If you have 10,000 hours flying but retired and now just do it for fun, you are an amateur. If you just completed flight school and are earning $30k flying puddle jumpers 100 miles out and back and don't even have 500 hours yet, you're still a professional. ED is a corporation with officers and payroll. BMS is not. Ergo ED is professional, and BMS is not, nor are any others any longer since SF2 and company are gone. CAP2 is an unknown as it's unreleased (early access can still collapse and people who bought will have an unfinished product).

Simple answer--in over 20 years i've put in less than 100 hours into LOMAC/Flanker/DCS. Why? Because I can't get into it for long before its shortcoming irk me and I stop flying it, usually it for several months at a time. So despite its age, it actually feels fresh. I have played in all these years ONE campaign mission in Flanker, LOMAC, and DCS combined! I got frustrated and didn't try another one. I just fly single missions in MP and generally quick missions offline. Then I don't fly again for a week or so. This has kept it alive in my mind.

I put more time than that into F4 before F4:AF was even released. With the RPs and SPs, and then F4:AF, and then RV, I'm just done. I probably put in close to 1000 hours in the first 10 years. It holds no appeal any longer.

If you told someone you loved movies, and they asked you which ones you like and you say "Top Gun", and when they ask what else you respond "I just like Top Gun and watch it every day, I don't watch other movies because I think Top Gun is the best one", do you not think people will find that strange?
I've seen Top Gun. I know it inside and out, backwards and forwards. I don't need to watch it again. I WILL complain that Red Tails and Flyboys and Pearl Harbor had lackluster air combat and lament it needs to be done better next time, but if someone says "Why don't you watch Top Gun instead??" I will NOT take that seriously.

I'm not saying BMS isn't good for the people who like it. I'm saying it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Trying to convince me that I haven't seen Top Gun, not really, not until I sit on this couch and watch it on this new TV that's curved and thin with upscaling to 4K and 7.1 surround sound, and I really should watch it again won't work. I have still seen it a million times.




The Jedi Master



Well Jedi the same can be applied to DCS missions and bugs, i've seen too many time those bugs, boring multiplayer and repetitive missions (some campaigns even use the same enemy pattern over and over like A-10 campaign) that i really cannot digest it again. I would rather reinstall EECH (not only bad graphics but also no clickable cockpit which i hate having to memorize keys combination) than run it.
I could say "I'm not saying that DCS ins't good for those who like it, i'm saying it doesn't exist as far as i'm concerned" but the developer and gamer inside me force me to say "DCS is not good, the development is awful full of bugs and messy, and now they want to rip off their worshipers by using abusive marketing practice just because they are aware that we are in a extreme fanboy generation that are willing to pay whatever is proposed to them because they just have no dignity to stand up"

PS: let's just not forget that DCS offers no COMBAT ENVIRONMENT but just TRAINING ENVIRONMENT, which i'm not referring to dynamic campaigns but to the missing proper and balanced enemies for given aircraft......oh wait they will ask money for WW2 AI to offer you a balanced environment ....... XD

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 03/16/17 12:13 PM.
#4344750 - 03/16/17 01:36 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master

I'm not saying BMS isn't good for the people who like it. I'm saying it doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. Trying to convince me that I haven't seen Top Gun, not really, not until I sit on this couch and watch it on this new TV that's curved and thin with upscaling to 4K and 7.1 surround sound, and I really should watch it again won't work. I have still seen it a million times.

The Jedi Master


Just because Falcon BMS doesn't "exist to you anymore" it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Just because you don't care about Falcon BMS doesn't mean that this sim haven't been in development and is in development as we speak.

Actually apart from extra aircraft the development in BMS looks far more advanced and far more professional (Heck, basically everything in BMS really WORKS - as opposed to DCS!). For example you have several maps in BMS, being three of them top quality (Korea-original, Israel and Balkans) while DCS only has a "top" quality map (the same old Black Sea) and a "half-baked" and almost useless map (Nevada).

Heck, DCS can't even add a new aircraft (F-5) without messing up the carrier takeoffs of another (Su-33)! And these are your "professional guys"?? Common, you're smarter that this!


Therefore it's false to say that BMS isn't a modern sim in development and it's false to say that BMS isn't or can't be an alternative to DCS. Whether you like it or not that's only a matter that only concerns to you. So you don't care about BMS fine but can't discount it as a modern sim.
For example I care less and less about DCS - I don't play it for more than a year now and I don't intend play it in the future and if DCS ceased to exist today, personally and despite being a combat flight sim player, I wouldn't miss it much, this as opposed if the same happened to BMS - but nevertheless and for the sake of facts and truth I couldn't say that DCS isn't a modern sim!

So like it or not, both BMS and DCS are MODERN sims which are CURRENTLY IN DEVELOPMENT. One have more advanced things than the other and vice versa. Personally BMS is far more advanced than DCS, despite the latter having DX11 which personally and despite my video card supporting it, I really cannot enjoy whatever it brings to me.

Finally, I found a tad funny that in a previous post of yours you posted that CAP2 is still an "incomplete sim/game". And what is DCS (in regard to "completion") may I ask??

#4344754 - 03/16/17 01:46 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: xXNightEagleXx]  
Joined: Sep 2010
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Johnny_Redd  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 771
Originally Posted by xXNightEagleXx
they are aware that we are in a extreme fanboy generation that are willing to pay whatever is proposed to them because and just have no dignity to stand up"

I think its more to do with the mindset that you see not just in here of 'DCS is the only game in town'. For whatever reason, modern, graphics, fidelity. The community is crying out for a moddrn simulation and everybody can see the potential of DCS. The idea kf DCS is great, unfortunately those in charge dont have the wherewithal to manage one single part of the development.
The 3rd parties are a freaking joke. Theyre taking money and trashing the reputation of the platform with their poor modules and ED are doing nothing about it. They should, they grant the licence, they take their cut, they sell the product through their storefront.
The roadmap is staggeringly incoherent to anyone with a history in CFS. There is zero structure, no method in their madness.
Customer service just downright sucks.
PR is a disaster, certain mods make it worse.
Those are my major issues with the platform. Those are the reasons I'm spending my money elsewhere.

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 03/16/17 01:50 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4344772 - 03/16/17 02:27 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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- Ice  Offline
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Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Do you use Windows Professional because it acts better than Windows Home? Is Windows Home amateurish, petty, and sitting around in sweat pants all day? Do you believe Windows Enterprise makes money if you use it?
You are using the wrong definition of professional. I am using the one that MS uses to label Windows. Behavior is irrelevant. If they are not being paid as a company, they are amateurs.
If you have 10,000 hours flying but retired and now just do it for fun, you are an amateur. If you just completed flight school and are earning $30k flying puddle jumpers 100 miles out and back and don't even have 500 hours yet, you're still a professional. ED is a corporation with officers and payroll. BMS is not. Ergo ED is professional, and BMS is not, nor are any others any longer since SF2 and company are gone. CAP2 is an unknown as it's unreleased (early access can still collapse and people who bought will have an unfinished product).

So your logic is based on the definition of "professional" as engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.... but what about the other definition of "professional" as a person competent or skilled in a particular activity?

I am referring to the quality of work and the bearing or attitude of the people involved, not whether or not they get paid for their work. It even makes it look much worse when you consider that these "unpaid modders" do a better job than the "paid professionals."

Also insisting that a retired pilot with 10,000 hours is now an "amateur" just because he no longer gets paid whereas a new pilot with 200 hours is now a "professional" just because he got hired by an airline company is silly; I'd have thought you'd be better than that. When we start going into semantics to weasel in the word "professional," well, we know where we're going at that point.

Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Simple answer--in over 20 years i've put in less than 100 hours into LOMAC/Flanker/DCS. Why? Because I can't get into it for long before its shortcoming irk me and I stop flying it, usually it for several months at a time. So despite its age, it actually feels fresh. I have played in all these years ONE campaign mission in Flanker, LOMAC, and DCS combined! I got frustrated and didn't try another one. I just fly single missions in MP and generally quick missions offline. Then I don't fly again for a week or so. This has kept it alive in my mind.

I put more time than that into F4 before F4:AF was even released. With the RPs and SPs, and then F4:AF, and then RV, I'm just done. I probably put in close to 1000 hours in the first 10 years. It holds no appeal any longer.

So in essence, the craptastic nature of DCS has kept if "fresh" for you but the immersion and depth of Falcon has been its detriment? That still speaks volumes of the quality of Falcon... spending 1,000 hours on it, compared to DCS that you've spent less than 100 hours on... doesn't matter which one you're sick of and which one you are still curious about, fact of the matter is one game you've played to death, the other barely holds your interest long enough.

DCS isn't good enough for you to play it seriously and you've burned yourself out of Falcon. That's all there is to it.


- Ice
#4344775 - 03/16/17 02:33 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
Joined: Feb 2000
Posts: 49,716
Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
Jedi Master  Offline
Entil'zha
Sierra Hotel

Joined: Feb 2000
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Space Coast, USA
DCS World is designed to never be finished. However, A-10C and Black Shark were completed long ago. Interestingly, what time I do put into DCS is spent largely on those two. I'd say a good 2/3 of my time is there, with the remaining 3rd spit between everything else I have.

And no, I do NOT agree that BMS is a "modern sim" or that it's "in development". It's a mod. It may be the greatest mod in the history of mods, but it's a mod. Same as the ATAG stuff for CloD. In that case, however, it is planned for it to become professional. They are working with 1C and will be releasing their stuff alongside existing CloD and will after that actually release paid content to go with it. It will make the transition to current sim.

Falcon is dead. Whoever still owns the rights to it at this point (Atari? Whoever they are now?) gave up any hope of using it again.

BMS is a like a club that takes classic cars and rebuilds them with modern equipment. You can't buy it at a dealer. You need to buy the used car yourself, then you go to them and they provide the steps to get to the next level. You can't go on Steam or GOG and download "BMS".

There are two possibilities: either your love for it is blinding you to the OBVIOUS differences between a modded old sim and a current commercial product for sale, or you have such a broad definition of what "current" is that this argument is moot.

You seem to be saying that if a car is still drivable on the roads and is street legal that it's a modern car. You prefer the way it drives, how it looks, its build quality. Even though you can't buy it anymore, you prefer it to one off a dealer lot. If THAT is your definition of modern...

I DISAGREE. I will never agree.




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4344800 - 03/16/17 03:17 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Jun 2005
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master
DCS World is designed to never be finished. However, A-10C and Black Shark were completed long ago. Interestingly, what time I do put into DCS is spent largely on those two. I'd say a good 2/3 of my time is there, with the remaining 3rd spit between everything else I have.

Fair enough. Those are two very good modules!


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
And no, I do NOT agree that BMS is a "modern sim" or that it's "in development". It's a mod. It may be the greatest mod in the history of mods, but it's a mod. Same as the ATAG stuff for CloD. In that case, however, it is planned for it to become professional. They are working with 1C and will be releasing their stuff alongside existing CloD and will after that actually release paid content to go with it. It will make the transition to current sim.

Sure, you are free to agree or disagree.... but why do you say it's not a "modern sim" or consider it "in development"? What is a "modern sim" for you?


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Falcon is dead. Whoever still owns the rights to it at this point (Atari? Whoever they are now?) gave up any hope of using it again.

Tommo/Retroism recently bought the rights to Falcon... which caused a bit of a snag with BMS but they quickly and "professionally" (read: competently) ironed out a deal. Falcon may be dead, but BMS isn't.


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
BMS is a like a club that takes classic cars and rebuilds them with modern equipment. You can't buy it at a dealer. You need to buy the used car yourself, then you go to them and they provide the steps to get to the next level. You can't go on Steam or GOG and download "BMS".

There are two possibilities: either your love for it is blinding you to the OBVIOUS differences between a modded old sim and a current commercial product for sale, or you have such a broad definition of what "current" is that this argument is moot.

Again, please state your criteria for these classifications you're making. If BMS were to charge £20 per copy of BMS, would that "elevate" the sim into the "commercial and professional" category? What is "current" or "modern" for you? What is an actual software and what is an actual mod? How much of the old code must remain for one item to be classified as a "mod" or at which point does the item become a totally new "game"?

You **DO** know that BMS runs by itself, right? The requirement of the Falcon 4.0 .exe (pre-Tommo) or the Falcon 4.0 game (post-Tommo) is there to appease the IP holder and to keep BMS classed as a non-profit mod... but to say Falcon is dead and to ignore BMS because it's just a mod is really just trying to brute-force a point that cannot stand on its own.


Originally Posted by Jedi Master
You seem to be saying that if a car is still drivable on the roads and is street legal that it's a modern car. You prefer the way it drives, how it looks, its build quality. Even though you can't buy it anymore, you prefer it to one off a dealer lot. If THAT is your definition of modern...

I DISAGREE. I will never agree.

What we're saying is that "this car," even if it's an upgraded version of an older car, runs better than that shiny new car from the dealer. What we're saying is that "this car," even if built by unpaid "mechanics" who work on it on their free time, runs better and provides a much better driving experience than that shiny new car that's built by paid engineers and designers. What we're saying is that "this car," even though the engine is old, has all the amenities (and more!!) that you'd expect from a shiny new car. What we're saying is that "this car," even though it's maintained by unpaid mechanics, gets fixed and upgraded whereas if you take that shiny new car into the dealers where paid mechanics work on it, well, you come in for an oil change and you come out with new oil but with a brake problem. You come back in so that they can fix the brake and they do... for 3 out of the 4 wheels, and now the window wipers don't work. You come in to get a new security system installed and the "professional mechanics" do it for you but now the passenger window won't roll down. How do you like your "modern" car now?

I'm sorry but you can trash the "old" and "dead" Falcon and say that BMS does not count, but really, is **YOUR** definition of "modern developers" and their product really that good? Sometimes, some people just want an old, reliable, fun, and cheap car compared to the "latest and greatest" that breaks down every 100 miles and the mechanics at the dealers look like 16-year old apprentices who've not even gotten past the cover page of the repair manual yet. I think one guy was even sucking his thumb!


- Ice
#4344804 - 03/16/17 03:27 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
Joined: Jul 2005
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Force10 Offline
I'm just a
Force10  Offline
I'm just a
Senior Member

Joined: Jul 2005
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CA
I'm not sure what difference it makes how you "classify" it.

I have both sims, and BMS gets more stick time because it's more of a "combat pilot" simulator with immersion...not a boring, sterile, highly modeled plane...and thats all.

I guess the 36,000 plus BMS members would disagree with you that it can't be considered an alternative.

If the combat sim is better...I don't care where it came from...and NEVER will!

wink


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