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#4344322 - 03/14/17 05:04 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted by cichlidfan


DCS is still being developed by the company that owns and has access to all of the code. BMS devs are just trying to glue things onto the old code.


Well...glue or not...BMS still has a fully modeled fast mover with functioning air and ground radar modes. Which fast mover has ED produced that can match that? Just curious...


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#4344324 - 03/14/17 05:10 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
Originally Posted by cichlidfan


DCS is still being developed by the company that owns and has access to all of the code. BMS devs are just trying to glue things onto the old code.


Well...glue or not...BMS still has a fully modeled fast mover with functioning air and ground radar modes. Which fast mover has ED produced that can match that? Just curious...


How many aircraft has BMS produces from scratch?


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#4344325 - 03/14/17 05:12 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.

Last edited by PanzerMeyer; 03/14/17 05:12 PM.

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#4344329 - 03/14/17 05:25 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.


So, just because something built with passion in mind instead of profits automatically makes it inferior? Yes...DCS is obviously newer code but we have branching versions with different levels of broken things going on between them. It seems
more like a modding community built platform than BMS does which has one stable version.

It doesn't matter to me really...all I know is that I have DCS modules collecting dust on my hard drive while I wait for them to match immersion that was accomplished 20 years ago. So I fly BMS while I wait...and it appears I will be flying it for years to come
since ED has no interest in making an interesting and lively battlefield.

The ideology that we should just throw money at ED because they appear to be the last flight sim developer based on whatever yardstick you choose to measure with doesn't wash with me. wink


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#4344330 - 03/14/17 05:26 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted by cichlidfan
[How is DCS and alternative to DCS?

[Linked Image] [Linked Image]


Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Which developer besides Eagle Dynamics is currently making modern air COMBAT jet simulations? And BMS doesn't count since it's based on a flight sim that came out 19 years ago.

Originally Posted by Force10
Well...you can scratch ED as well since it's based on a flight sim (Flanker) that came out 25 years ago. Right?

Sorry, so when a couple of "modders" add stuff like full 6DoF, fully-clickable cockpits, stable multiplayer, buddy lasing, and numerous other theatres, it doesn't count as "modern" because the base platform is 19 years old??


Originally Posted by cichlidfan
DCS is still being developed by the company that owns and has access to all of the code. BMS devs are just trying to glue things onto the old code.

Hahahahahahahaha.... that's even worse!! Being shown up by devs that are "just trying to glue thing onto the old code" doesn't really do much for improving ED's credibility.
As for a company that has access to all of its code.... how long does it take them to build a theatre? What's taking 2.5 so long? Why is the draw distance so low? Why are there still bugs in stuff that have been around for YEARS???

Don't get me wrong, BMS has bugs too... but at least the guys over there have the honesty to either say 1) it's hardcoded and we can't do anything about it, 2) it's in the pipeline but rather low priority at the moment, or 3) we're checking how to fix that.


Originally Posted by cichlidfan
How many aircraft has BMS produces from scratch?

Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!! OMG!! The comedy just writes itself!!
Sorry, cichlidfan. Please answer the first question. Heck, I'll be the more mature individual and answer your question -- "None."
Now your turn. "BMS still has a fully modeled fast mover with functioning air and ground radar modes. Which fast mover has ED produced that can match that?
Please... please.... I know you like ED and DCS flows through your veins, but please, please, please focus and try to answer the question.


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#4344332 - 03/14/17 05:28 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.

What's the qualifying factor here? Being developed by PAID individuals?
What exactly about DCS World are you talking about? The AI? The single map (and one in development) that you can fly in? You do know that the "world" is just a sandbox where other "modules" are injected into... like saying FSX has a "world" and Carenado are selling "modules."


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#4344335 - 03/14/17 05:34 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Wherever you feel it fits into the continuum, there is also Combat Air Patrol 2.

#4344336 - 03/14/17 05:37 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted by CyBerkut
Wherever you feel it fits into the continuum, there is also Combat Air Patrol 2.


Yep...been watching this one. When they get the dynamic campaign up and running I will pick this one up.


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#4344341 - 03/14/17 05:58 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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Is it a "when" and not an "if"??


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#4344371 - 03/14/17 07:10 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: PanzerMeyer]  
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Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.


The Analogy is actually quite easy to understand:

BMS -> Based on a sim (Falcon 4.0) which used an old version of DirectX (6.0 perhaps?). But since then BMS team which has access to the code (note that they are not simple modders since and again they have access to the code!) they updated to code the newest version of Falcon BMS which now supports DirectX 9.0 among many other new features such as GPS and Man-in-the-loop weapons, Data Cartridge (DTC), etc...

DCS -> Based on a sim (Flanker) developed for Windows 95 and MS/DOS (perhaps it didn't even use DirectX). But since the team (DCS) has access to the code they have been updating it and the latest "stable"/pseudo-release version also supports DirectX 9.0 (ED promises to support DirectX11 or 12? in the future but that's yet to be seen) which have added many new features but also breaking many other features in the process.

So except for one being FREE (BMS) and the other PAID (DCS) and one being STABLE (BMS) and the other being a BUGGY MESS (DCS), I can really see an analogy between both sims.

And if one is to be considered "better" than for my part I'm 100% sure that title isn't bestowed to DCS, that's for sure! Actually it should be a shame for ED that the BMS team which can be considered "part-time modders" (as you put it) but above all that works for free are way and much more professional than a "professional" developer like ED!


And like others already said here, there is at least an another "modern fighter sim" developer (if you want to exclude BMS - which again doesn't make any sense): the developer of CAP2.

Then if you want "prop sims" then for example you have the WOFF (a WWI sim) developer - BTW, the latest version of WOFF doesn't even need CFS3 anymore! And these devs are currently developing a WWII sim.


Again I find quite odd that people get so "defensive" about ED which ALWAYS screws up and messes things time over time but at the same time refuse to give any chance to other developers only to later claim that ED is the "only" developer around.... rolleyes

#4344373 - 03/14/17 07:14 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
DCS -> Based on a sim (Flanker) developed for Windows 95 and MS/DOS (perhaps it didn't even use DirectX). But since the team (DCS) has access to the code they have been updating it and the latest "stable"/pseudo-release version also supports DirectX 9.0 (ED promises to support DirectX11 or 12? in the future but that's yet to be seen)


DCS has been DX11 (your DX9 video card won't run it) for a long time now.


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#4344379 - 03/14/17 07:59 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: cichlidfan]  
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Originally Posted by cichlidfan
Originally Posted by Force10
Originally Posted by cichlidfan


DCS is still being developed by the company that owns and has access to all of the code. BMS devs are just trying to glue things onto the old code.


Well...glue or not...BMS still has a fully modeled fast mover with functioning air and ground radar modes. Which fast mover has ED produced that can match that? Just curious...


How many aircraft has BMS produces from scratch?



Technically, Just counting the F-16 Blocks in BMS, I'd Say between half a dozen and 10, since they re-wrote most of the avionics and flight models from scratch, replaced the external and cockpit models, for several different versions of the F-16.


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#4344380 - 03/14/17 08:07 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted by ricnunes
Originally Posted by PanzerMeyer
Sorry but not buying the analogy. BMS is a community-led modding of a flight sim that was commercially released in 1998. There's no way you can say that's the same as what we currently have with DCS World.


The Analogy is actually quite easy to understand:

BMS -> Based on a sim (Falcon 4.0) which used an old version of DirectX (6.0 perhaps?). But since then BMS team which has access to the code (note that they are not simple modders since and again they have access to the code!) they updated to code the newest version of Falcon BMS which now supports DirectX 9.0 among many other new features such as GPS and Man-in-the-loop weapons, Data Cartridge (DTC), etc...

DCS -> Based on a sim (Flanker) developed for Windows 95 and MS/DOS (perhaps it didn't even use DirectX). But since the team (DCS) has access to the code they have been updating it and the latest "stable"/pseudo-release version also supports DirectX 9.0 (ED promises to support DirectX11 or 12? in the future but that's yet to be seen) which have added many new features but also breaking many other features in the process.

So except for one being FREE (BMS) and the other PAID (DCS) and one being STABLE (BMS) and the other being a BUGGY MESS (DCS), I can really see an analogy between both sims.

And if one is to be considered "better" than for my part I'm 100% sure that title isn't bestowed to DCS, that's for sure! Actually it should be a shame for ED that the BMS team which can be considered "part-time modders" (as you put it) but above all that works for free are way and much more professional than a "professional" developer like ED!


And like others already said here, there is at least an another "modern fighter sim" developer (if you want to exclude BMS - which again doesn't make any sense): the developer of CAP2.

Then if you want "prop sims" then for example you have the WOFF (a WWI sim) developer - BTW, the latest version of WOFF doesn't even need CFS3 anymore! And these devs are currently developing a WWII sim.


Again I find quite odd that people get so "defensive" about ED which ALWAYS screws up and messes things time over time but at the same time refuse to give any chance to other developers only to later claim that ED is the "only" developer around.... rolleyes


if you're gonna Divulge Lineage to determine the origins.
1.
BMS is Based on Falcon 4.0, which is Based on Falcon 3.0 and Falcon AT which is MS-DOS as well,

It's more Like:
BMS Exists by Piggybacking updated Engines (Graphics, Avionics, Flight Models, Terrains) onto Falcon 4.0s Existing Base Code.

DCS Exists by the Developers Evolving and Replacing the Engines of What Using to be Flaming Cliffs. DCS has replaced the underlying engines multiple times since LockOn, has Re-Compiled the Source code from 32-Bit to 64-Bit, recompiled from separate Executable (UI/Render Engine) into a Single Executable, replaced a DX9.0 Graphics Engine with a DX11 Engine, and Will Eventually replace current Lighting/Shading Engine w/ a Deferred/PBR Rendering and Lighting System, Not to mention half a Dozen Terrain Engine Evolutions.

2.
BMS is Only Free if you legally purchased Falcon 4.0
DCS is Free to play if you dont mind being limited to the Su-25T and Caucasus.


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#4344383 - 03/14/17 08:25 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla


DCS Exists by the Developers Evolving and Replacing the Engines of What Using to be Flaming Cliffs. DCS has replaced the underlying engines multiple times since LockOn, has Re-Compiled the Source code from 32-Bit to 64-Bit, recompiled from separate Executable (UI/Render Engine) into a Single Executable, replaced a DX9.0 Graphics Engine with a DX11 Engine, and Will Eventually replace current Lighting/Shading Engine w/ a Deferred/PBR Rendering and Lighting System, Not to mention half a Dozen Terrain Engine Evolutions.


...and with all of this...which sim would you say is one cohesive, immersive flight sim package? It's pretty clear that DCS will always be a never-ending stream of different levels of unfinished pre-alpha's, betas etc. that will take years...if at all...to become the complete package with period correct foes on the ground/sea/air that BMS offers right now.

IMO of course. smile


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#4344384 - 03/14/17 08:26 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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#4344387 - 03/14/17 08:39 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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I'm not sure why this is even an issue for some.
If I buy a car and like the way it drives...I don't really care if it was based on a chassis from 20 years ago...all I know is that it drives better than the yaris that was built all new from the ground up.


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#4344388 - 03/14/17 08:42 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: leaf_on_the_wind]  
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DCS is a commercial product.

BMS is not, not since LP vanished and the prospect of building onto F4: AF went with them.
Likewise the EECH updates, the EAW updates, CFS2 and 3 updates that required the game (excluding the latest WOFF)...

If you refuse to accept that fact because somehow it threatens your opinion of BMS (and really, why would you care if someone else thinks it counts or not?), that's too bad.

It may be an immaterial distinction to you.
It is not to others.

Is there ANYTHING they can say that will make you think BMS is outdated and doesn't count?
Then why do you think there's anything you can say that will convince them of the opposite? confused



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#4344389 - 03/14/17 08:44 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted by Force10
I'm not sure why this is even an issue for some.
If I buy a car and like the way it drives...I don't really care if it was based on a chassis from 20 years ago...all I know is that it drives better than the yaris that was built all new from the ground up.


The difference is if that car has a literal 20 year old chassis inside the new body. It's the difference between flying a FW190 that was restored after it was found in the ice and flying a replica made of new materials.

It doesn't matter to some people. To others it does.



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#4344394 - 03/14/17 08:52 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted by SkateZilla
BMS is Only Free if you legally purchased Falcon 4.0
DCS is Free to play if you dont mind being limited to the Su-25T and Caucasus.

*gasp!!* *horror!!*
£8.09 for the Falcon Collection on GoG or £6.99 on Steam...
£4.99 for just Falcon 4.0 on Steam...
How dare they require that you need to LEGALLY purchase Falcon 4.0? The nerve of those unpaid modders having to bow down to the IP holder of Falcon!! The nerve of them, doing work for free, but asking **US** to fork over our hard-earned money!!

And what do you get for all of that cash? Just one... **ONE** multi-role aircraft!! Three campaigns. A few other theatres with campaigns too. Multiplayer. Are you **REALLY** getting good value for your money there?


Let's compare that to the awesome FREE offer by DCS...
One big, big, BIG!! map that's been around since.... LOMAC?
One A-G Russian attack aircraft and an unarmed P-51!!
Any campaigns? Any other theatres? Oh, those are DLC for the low, low price of $10 per campaign DLC with limited replayability and $30-$60 for each additional aircraft and $45-$50 for each new terrain.

After all, these devs have mouths to feed and bills to pay and all the work that they do fixing the stuff that was broken when they tried fixing the stuff that was broken when they tried fixing the stuff that was broken.... it's all fair, right?


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#4344397 - 03/14/17 08:57 PM Re: Normandy and AI units to be sold separately [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted by Jedi Master
Is there ANYTHING they can say that will make you think BMS is outdated and doesn't count?
Then why do you think there's anything you can say that will convince them of the opposite? confused

Just want them to clarify their criteria for saying what they say, for instance, what constitutes a "modern" flight sim? Does it have to have "modern" aircraft? So Jane's F/A-18? Does it have to be made recently?? So IL-2 BoS? Does it have to have been coded recently? So CAP2? How much of the old code can be allowed for it to be classified as "recently"? If that's not clarified, then BMS goes all the way back to Falcon 4.0 and DCS goes all the way back to LOMAC at least.

I find it funny that they apply one criteria to one sim and another criteria to another sim and then rant and rave because of it.


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