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#4366626 - 06/28/17 09:01 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.


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#4366635 - 06/28/17 10:26 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Suicidal_6]  
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Originally Posted by Suicidal_6
Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.

Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning."
Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion.
I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those.
Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do.

Last edited by Schwalbe; 06/28/17 10:29 PM.
#4368548 - 07/11/17 03:29 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Roll rate and zoom climbs were the Zeros advantages. Frankly, they sucked at tight turns. Anything over 6Gs would rip their wings off, while the US planes could easily pull 9Gs. An example of US planes' superior construction is when Swede Vejtasa took out three zeroes while in a Dauntless dive bomber, by out turning them. The Dauntless could pull 12Gs, and he used all of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eDPyvyt-MQ - 10:24



-Irish


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.........................................................................odonovan1 on World War II Online - Formerly @Power Play on City of Heroes.........................................................................
#4368728 - 07/12/17 12:13 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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I am not sure about that Irish.

The Zero was famous for problems with roll rate at higher speeds. Anything faster than normal cruise speed flight caused stiff controls and it was also very affected by torque. The stiff control problem was so severe that it was nearly impossible to achieve any aileron deflection. Accounts I have read stated that the pilots resorted to mashing on the rudder to turn at high speed, but there are some accounts of the aircraft falling apart after high speed rudder deflections. Incidentally the P-51 also had problems with shedding the tail of the aircraft during high speed rudder deflections. Anecdotal evidence from the pacific theater tells of American pilots always turning off to the right because the JP pilots couldn't roll the aircraft to the right as fast as they could to the left. I think the hydraulic assist of the P-38 may have been one of the reasons it fared so well against the Zero and other similarly designed JP aircraft.

I am not so sure high G ability is all that useful in a WW2 fighter either. It may have its place, but the Zero's turning circle is TINY, at CORNER SPEED. As far as I know there were no US frontline aircraft that could outturn a Zero at corner speed. In jets high-g may be important but when you only have 900-1200hp keeping your plane moving, pulling G's is not going to improve your situation most of the time. You end up with very high AoA and a bad guy following you in a lag pursuit will just change to lead and shoot you down.

#4369710 - 07/18/17 02:03 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Deacon211]  
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Originally Posted by Deacon211
If you have the book Fighter Combat: Tactics and Maneuvering by Shaw.


Sounds like an interesting read

#4369711 - 07/18/17 02:12 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Schwalbe]  
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Originally Posted by Schwalbe
Originally Posted by Suicidal_6
Deacon and Andy were actual fighter pilots. Enough said.

Oh great. "The pilot, his highness, is always better than you, no matter what the reasoning."
Sarcasm aside, what knowledge of their past experience have they actually brought to this discussion.
I've talked and flown with active service F-16 pilots. I learned a great deal and I literally wanted to scream from the revelation of knowledge, and naturally, I pay them great respect. I fail to see this here is one of those.
Now if you excuse me, I have my own, non-piloting.. stuff to do.


Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory



#4369757 - 07/18/17 11:28 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: bisher]  
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Originally Posted by bisher

Oh great, we get the occasional post by Andy Bush, but get to hear on and on from members like Schwalbe. This is why SimHQ is failing for me, this guy should be suspended for being disrespectful to our members. You do not need to call somebody a name to be derogatory

Won't respond to this. As said better things to do.

#4369833 - 07/18/17 05:34 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Keep it civil guys, if you don't like what you see ignore it.

#4387281 - 10/30/17 01:47 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Old discussion...

My understanding has always been that "maneuverability", in a fighter aircraft, results from the ability to change the aircraft's vector and attitude quickly. In another sense, this means a fairly unstable platform, as a stable one would resist the changes inherently. Roll rate advantage would then be a desirable thing for a fighter.

In the sim world I routinely use roll rate to go into a bank, then continue the roll "under" to bank opposite if I am flying say a Bf-109E vs a Spit I or a P-40B vs a Ki-43. I can usually then flick out where I choose, ruining a pursuer's firing solution. If he's greedy, I might trick him into something dumb. But better to never have let him behind me! When I have to resort to that, it's because I made bad decisions. Or, during a merge, I can go into a right or left bank, hold it to reel in the head-on enemy, then roll out "under" to opposite, ruining his solution and maybe inviting him to waste E correcting his solution hopelessly. Then maybe I end the roll under with a quick low yo-yo to put E "in the bank" while he's blown his, and onto his tail. Worth a try.

But in general, offensively, going into a fast hard bank to quickly change heading seems very fighter-ish when I ID a new target and desire to position myself to bounce him. I'd say that tactically, I use it offensively to cut off a target inside his turn circle (I travel less distance through the air going to 90* than he can, after all) if I can time that and have enough elevator authority, and defensively to roll out of a bad situation. It's also nice to have a defensive maneuver handy that may well result in offense, which should be the fighter pilot's goal. Strategically, I use it to position myself to secure advantage quickly before engaging.


What kind of car is that? What does it matter? When I drive it, I'm Steve McQueen
#4523726 - 06/04/20 04:13 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted by GrayGhost
You can time your entry into a bandit's TC better that way.
You can perform defensive maneuvers better.
You can counter defensive maneuvers better.


whats TC


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#4523967 - 06/05/20 04:11 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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I would guess Turn Circle.

#4529616 - 07/12/20 06:10 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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whats better... turn rate or turn radius...


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#4530057 - 07/15/20 02:00 PM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Buy a copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manoeuvring - an excellent study of the implications of similar and dissimilar performance and single and multi-aircraft tactics.

Turn rate can be more *easily* exploited, and because of it peak having higher energy gives advantages in multi-aircraft environments, while turn radius requires lower energy state. However an advantage in turn radius can be exploited, even by a poorer turning fighter if the other carries too much energy, if it is used in the right time and place.

#4533564 - 08/14/20 05:31 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: Lieste]  
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Originally Posted by Lieste
Buy a copy of Shaw's Fighter Combat, Tactics and Manoeuvring - an excellent study of the implications of similar and dissimilar performance and single and multi-aircraft tactics.

Turn rate can be more *easily* exploited, and because of it peak having higher energy gives advantages in multi-aircraft environments, while turn radius requires lower energy state. However an advantage in turn radius can be exploited, even by a poorer turning fighter if the other carries too much energy, if it is used in the right time and place.


bro... talk to me as if you were talking to a child... so, in essence turn rate (a fast turner) is generally better than a plane with a tighter radius? or the opposite.. thanks smile I would think that with turn rate, you can use other tactics to get guns on target like a small/quick hi yo yo

Last edited by W-Molders; 08/14/20 05:33 AM.

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#4533581 - 08/14/20 11:35 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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Being double advantaged is good. Being double disadvantaged is bad (Higher T/W, Lower WL is double advantage, Lower T/W and Higher WL is double disadvantage).

It is possible to win from double disadvantage if you minimise exposure, seek optimal geometry but it is an uphill battle (usually literally).

It is easier to win from double advantage, but poor geometry selection (being greedy, usually) can put you at risk. Additional unseen bogeys can take snapshots while you manoeuvre against the first target, and in tracking shots your path is predictable and close to the (lower) performance of your target.

With a single advantage you can avoid the options which favour your opponent, and select those which favour you. This is initially the use of all aspect weapons pre-merge, then the decision of whether to turn nose-nose or nose to tail (or just to extend straight out of the fight) according to whether you want to be 'inside' his turn radius (you have a turn rate inferiority/low energy), or to brute force turn rate if you have excess energy, or a higher T/W or lower WL. Either tactic can be made decisive in a few turns, sometimes even within the first turn, but especially nose-nose turns (inside the radius) can have very tight manoeuvring and places a burden on minimum range boundaries and crossing angles/all aspect capability.

#4537647 - 09/19/20 03:54 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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you lost me... can you boil that down a little more in laymans terms


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#4540021 - 10/09/20 04:22 AM Re: Of what use is roll rate? [Re: astra]  
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a quicker roll rate allows you to establish a lift vector positioning lag in your opponent, and prevent your opponent establishing one on you.

what practical use? makes it easier to follow a target - particularly at high speeds where an opponents turn rate is suffering, and conversely makes it easier to get out of the way at high speeds.

a great defensive maneuver for an aircraft with better roll rate is to lure an opponent into a tracking shot at high turn rate and as soon as the attacker takes lead you reverse with a 180 degree roll, pull back until you've reversed and then nose down and extend away.

offensively you can use the roll rate in a head on merge, when you pull into what looks like a climb after merging when you are vertical you roll your aircraft 90 degrees, pull back until you are canopy down, roll the opposite direction 90 degrees and circle around. an opponent will usually turn their climb into a loop. if they do, geometry will enable you to roll into a control position on their six when they bottom out in the loop. without a high roll rate this can be difficult to pull off.


What WW2 Fighter pilots say about Angels and Airspeed:

"Nice job of getting down to the basics - love your choice of a cover!" Col. Clarence 'Bud' Anderson

"I have enjoyed reading angels and airspeed, it should prove good reading for all interested in combat tactics and their application related to the fluid air environment and state of technology in WWII years. All the best as you make it available." - Col. Charles McGee - Tuskegee Airman

NEVER ENGAGE STUPID.
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