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#4341900 - 03/03/17 09:05 PM Re: Normandy Terrain ***** [Re: - Ice]  
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Not everything sUxX. One thing that does suxx is how long ED take to actually accomplish anything. The other Normandy thread was started on 07/01/16, 8 months ago and that was after a couple of years development already behind them. We've seen some pretty screenshots but no real sign of a release date, well we've seen a couple of hoped for timeframes come and go but still no idea when. It's pathetic really when 777/1c can announce a new theatre and get the aircraft and the map out in a year and all these jokers can release in 2 and a half years is a few screenshots.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4341906 - 03/03/17 09:22 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Terrain is looking pretty good.

#4341965 - 03/04/17 12:54 AM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
Yes, yes, you're a victim.

Everyone should come to your house, wipe your tears and feel sorry for you while you scream and curse at them. That will solve all problems.

It's the fault of the rest of the world. Really.

And someone apparently cannot comprehend the written word. Must be that log....


- Ice
#4341972 - 03/04/17 01:27 AM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
Not everything sUxX. One thing that does suxx is how long ED take to actually accomplish anything.


This I can agree on, but to be fair I have very very little knowledge of what it takes to develop modules or a terrain. I guess one of the big things that stands
out is the never ending scope creep on the major projects that being the release of 2.5 by now redoing the Caucasus map and on the Normandy map the
integration of the new lighting system and the addition of a portion of Southern England.

Also this push for campaign DLC is a bit annoying. Is there really that much of a market for that? It just seems to take away when you see
certain fixes in the change log for campaign introduction or updates.

#4341975 - 03/04/17 01:49 AM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: mister_mystic68]  
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Originally Posted by mister_mystic68
This I can agree on, but to be fair I have very very little knowledge of what it takes to develop modules or a terrain.

When other developers and unpaid modders can make terrain in the fraction fo the time that ED does, it makes you start to ask questions....

One might argue that ED terrain is bigger? More detailed? But when you scale up the work that others have done, it still does not "fit" with the ED timeline, again prompting more questions.


- Ice
#4342011 - 03/04/17 11:41 AM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Just reading through the thread and was thinking, wasn't this discussed earlier? Like how ED is doing other things like maps and aircraft for different companies and military. ED doesn't work for free like unpaid modders and pay their team to work, so do they rely on other ways to have more revenue to get by and run a real company that turnover over real dollars? This may slow them down some depending on the contracts they have.






Originally Posted by Silver_Dragon
The profesional branch on Youtube
-Avia TD:
-Corsica
-Fort Rucker
-Baku
-Debre Zeyit, Ethiopia
Smartgraph LCC
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyTrzyQUIMh7iEtWkiZsE6w
And some Avia video on Dmitry Robustov Youtube
https://youtu.be/9kxCpW9lDYA

#4342015 - 03/04/17 12:43 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Arafo, Canary Islands, Spain


More News to the Front
#4342016 - 03/04/17 12:44 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Redd
One thing that does suxx is how long ED take to actually accomplish anything

If they ever accomplish it

Last edited by xXNightEagleXx; 03/04/17 12:46 PM.
#4342019 - 03/04/17 01:59 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: JakeR]  
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Originally Posted by JakeR
Just reading through the thread and was thinking, wasn't this discussed earlier? Like how ED is doing other things like maps and aircraft for different companies and military. ED doesn't work for free like unpaid modders and pay their team to work, so do they rely on other ways to have more revenue to get by and run a real company that turnover over real dollars? This may slow them down some depending on the contracts they have.

When an unpaid group of modders who do the "work" on their free time gets stuff out the door faster compared to those that do it as their real job...
When another group of game developers makes a new map faster compared to the ED devs...

The "military contracts is the cause for delays" excuse is also getting really old. Why is there just one team for both military contracts and DCS? If military contracts is that much more lucrative, why are they in the civilian market? If the civilian market is lucrative, is it not lucrative enough to warrant a separate team to get the work done? It seems like ED wants to have the cake and eat it too, at the expense of civilian customers.

If they were a real company that wanted real work for real dollars, I dunno.... don't these kinds of companies care about setting realistic deadlines and hitting those targets?


- Ice
#4342023 - 03/04/17 02:25 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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JakeR Offline
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No argument here, just looking at it from all sides in this hard niche and get paid doing work in it.

Just looks like it would slow down the consumer side that's all, perhaps? Annoying Yes, ED doesn't say much, perhaps better off not to?


RPS: Would ED rather work on sims for the military or the public? I get the feeling defence departments pay more and complain less.

Originally Posted by Wags

Matt: We want to work on both! The developments are very much complementary. We have a development engine, which for want of a better term we call TFCSE (The Fighter Collection Simulation Engine). This engine is under continuous development and enhancement. Therefore the military gains an advantage of using technology that is state of the art, and the public get an entertainment title that has improved fidelity from our military experience (obviously limited to those are areas that are not classified!). We therefore can amortise our development costs across two markets, to the benefit of all. Military contracts are not a license to print money, as often they are required to be done on a “cost plus” basis, and I can assure you that they are very demanding as the simulation has to be perfect so as not to introduce “negative training”. In addition, gaining/winning military contracts is highly unpredictable, whereas for entertainment titles, we can plan a business over several years.


Interview: Matt Wagner On Black Shark

#4342024 - 03/04/17 02:32 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: JakeR]  
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Originally Posted by JakeR
Just reading through the thread and was thinking, wasn't this discussed earlier? Like how ED is doing other things like maps and aircraft for different companies and military. ED doesn't work for free like unpaid modders and pay their team to work, so do they rely on other ways to have more revenue to get by and run a real company that turnover over real dollars? This may slow them down some depending on the contracts they have.






Originally Posted by Silver_Dragon
The profesional branch on Youtube
-Avia TD:
-Corsica
-Fort Rucker
-Baku
-Debre Zeyit, Ethiopia
Smartgraph LCC
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyTrzyQUIMh7iEtWkiZsE6w
And some Avia video on Dmitry Robustov Youtube
https://youtu.be/9kxCpW9lDYA


ED took on the WW2 project. However one wants to explain the circumstances of ED being in sole control of it, the fact is they took on the project, they took on the work already done, they took on the responsibility of finishing it, they took on the responsibility of completing the kickstarter. They failed to honour the goals set out in the kickstarter and have shown very little regard for the folk who backed their project. The honourable thing to do would have been to refund all the money taken and scrapped the project. Instead they first cut the rewards, they published a revised timeline which they missed by almost 2 years and counting. They banned folk for complaining, and shelved the project until other products were out the door. They are incapable of managing their projects in a professional manner. I don't work for free either, nobody does. If I acted as unprofessional, as ED does, in my place of work I would be fired. If I was responsible for falling sales/lost contracts I would be removed from my position. It doesn't matter if they got a couple of military contracts during the time of the kickstarter, they took on a "contract" with their supporters first, that should have been the priority. Instead they showed exactly what they think of their non military customers, nothing.
For a company whose business practice is to release 'beta' products while they prioritise based on military or civilian there is an erosion of trust that these betas will eventually be finished. I have zero trust in ED and I'm not the only one. N

Last edited by Johnny_Redd; 03/04/17 02:56 PM.

DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4342025 - 03/04/17 02:43 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Silver_Dragon]  
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JakeR Offline
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WOW looking very nice

That B-17 model and map looks incredible! Thanks for posting them



#4342026 - 03/04/17 03:01 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: JakeR]  
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Johnny_Redd Offline
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Originally Posted by JakeR
WOW looking very nice

That B-17 model and map looks incredible! Thanks for posting them



More pretty screenshots. Where's the b17 crew?


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
#4342039 - 03/04/17 05:07 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: JakeR]  
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Originally Posted by JakeR
No argument here, just looking at it from all sides in this hard niche and get paid doing work in it.

Just looks like it would slow down the consumer side that's all, perhaps? Annoying Yes, ED doesn't say much, perhaps better off not to?


RPS: Would ED rather work on sims for the military or the public? I get the feeling defence departments pay more and complain less.

Originally Posted by Wags

Matt: We want to work on both! The developments are very much complementary. We have a development engine, which for want of a better term we call TFCSE (The Fighter Collection Simulation Engine). This engine is under continuous development and enhancement. Therefore the military gains an advantage of using technology that is state of the art, and the public get an entertainment title that has improved fidelity from our military experience (obviously limited to those are areas that are not classified!). We therefore can amortise our development costs across two markets, to the benefit of all. Military contracts are not a license to print money, as often they are required to be done on a “cost plus” basis, and I can assure you that they are very demanding as the simulation has to be perfect so as not to introduce “negative training”. In addition, gaining/winning military contracts is highly unpredictable, whereas for entertainment titles, we can plan a business over several years.


Interview: Matt Wagner On Black Shark


Black Shark was a long, long, LOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG time ago.

Trust me, we've tried to look at it from all sides and that's why the ED defenders get trounced and instead of dealing with facts, start going off tangent and proceed to question and discredit the POSTER, rather than the points of the posted content. You can see examples of this everywhere, this thread included.

Even if we give ED the benefit of the doubt and go with that information above... what products have the military gotten over the past few years that have trickled down to civilian consumers? 2.5 is nowhere near completion, Nevada is so many years late that it's hard to imagine the military using it NOW, and the released modules are so broken it's hard to imagine a military contract to be tolerant of these shortcomings.


- Ice
#4342051 - 03/04/17 06:54 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Vaderini Offline
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-Ice, there is a big difference between someone with a valid, thoughtful, well argumented complaint, and a whiner.

Humans respond quite well to the first one, the second group just frustrate themselves and get disrespected and ignored by everyone else.

#4342058 - 03/04/17 07:29 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
-Ice, there is a big difference between someone with a valid, thoughtful, well argumented complaint, and a whiner.

Granted, but you're assuming that those who are whining cannot present a valid, thoughtful, and well-argumented complaint. You'd be surprised. Have YOU asked FartHog directly yet? Or did you just continue to question his presence here?

Also, whining goes on in both camps, with the dissatisfied whining about ED's continued journey into the blackness and the supporters whining about why the former are even here posting and how dare they complain about their (the latter's) "favorite, greatest sim of all time".

Originally Posted by Vaderini
Humans respond quite well to the first one, the second group just frustrate themselves and get disrespected and ignored by everyone else.

Like I said, this isn't true all the time. Just because an argument is valid and thoughtful doesn't mean there's some desperate fanboi eager to disrespect the poster and attack the PERSON rather than the POST.


- Ice
#4342063 - 03/04/17 09:20 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Vaderini Offline
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Originally Posted by - Ice
Have YOU asked FartHog directly yet? Or did you just continue to question his presence here?

After you recommended I looked to his first post here, I went on and looked at his first 50 posts. He has made not a single well-argumented post, nor showing an ounce of nuance or reasonability.

That kind of behavior is a straight way to getting ignored.

Quote
. Also, whining goes on in both camps, with the dissatisfied whining about ED's continued journey into the blackness and the supporters whining about why the former are even here posting and how dare they complain about their (the latter's) "favorite, greatest sim of all time".

That is kind of a black and white attitude tbh. There shouldn't be any sides in a discussion. From what I gather of this forum, the number of fanboys and whiners even themselves quite out. But the fanboys move on with their life and don't keep hanging in their frustration.

Like I've said before: Keep hanging in your frustration doesn't do you any good. Their is nothing to be gained by being frustrated.

Quote

Like I said, this isn't true all the time. Just because an argument is valid and thoughtful doesn't mean there's some desperate fanboi eager to disrespect the poster and attack the PERSON rather than the POST.

Absolutely, this is the internet.

What I like about SimHQ is that 90% of the people is actually quite reasonable and have the good of the community at heart.
But when someone is an a**hole to you doesn't mean you need to be an a**hole back to other people, that is just not the way to go.

Again, you gain nothing in life by living with frustration, there has got to be a time when you've got to let it go.

I got frustrated by the ED Forums, so I post here, and only have PM conversations on the ED Forums nowadays.
PM group discussions are not very efficient, but unfortunately necessary considering the public forum is the most disgusting experience i've ever seen on the internet. And that says a lot.

When Stormfront and the KKK are the reasonable faction, you really need to take a long, hard look at the way your company is run.



But, back on topic:
The way some people talk here about some devs and people with a more moderate opinion of DCS is just as shameful. I'm not surprised Cobra247 is rather not here, or why this forum is dead compared to the past.
When people with good intentions walk away from you and ignore, you really need to have a look at yourself and your own behavior.

#4342073 - 03/04/17 10:11 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: Vaderini]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
After you recommended I looked to his first post here, I went on and looked at his first 50 posts. He has made not a single well-argumented post, nor showing an ounce of nuance or reasonability.

Have YOU asked FartHog yet? I didn't ask if you've researched his post history. His post history may show why he's signed up to SimHQ, but not necessarily anything else you're looking for.


Originally Posted by Vaderini
That is kind of a black and white attitude tbh. There shouldn't be any sides in a discussion. From what I gather of this forum, the number of fanboys and whiners even themselves quite out. But the fanboys move on with their life and don't keep hanging in their frustration.

Maybe because their expectations are different? Some people expect MORE of ED, mostly because of the spiel that ED themselves have been giving out. When ED says we'll see the Hornet in 2016, some of us expect to see the Hornet in 2016. Those who are happy with whatever scraps that fall off the DCS table can continue to be happy; some of us like to point out the flaws and faults.

Also, how can you have a discussion without having any sides? We're not exactly discussing the weather here.


Originally Posted by Vaderini
Like I've said before: Keep hanging in your frustration doesn't do you any good. Their is nothing to be gained by being frustrated.

What makes you think we're frustrated? Is it that log again?


Originally Posted by Vaderini
What I like about SimHQ is that 90% of the people is actually quite reasonable and have the good of the community at heart.
But when someone is an a**hole to you doesn't mean you need to be an a**hole back to other people, that is just not the way to go.

This is a GREAT community. Do not confuse the DCS sub-forum crowd for the entirety of the site. As for being the a-hole, maybe it'll be easier NOT to be an a-hole in the first place so that people don't call you out and give you some of your own medicine?


Originally Posted by Vaderini
I got frustrated by the ED Forums, so I post here, and only have PM conversations on the ED Forums nowadays.

Oh, I get it now... YOU are the one frustrated...


Originally Posted by Vaderini
But, back on topic:
The way some people talk here about some devs and people with a more moderate opinion of DCS is just as shameful. I'm not surprised Cobra247 is rather not here, or why this forum is dead compared to the past.
When people with good intentions walk away from you and ignore, you really need to have a look at yourself and your own behavior.

What was I saying about shifting blame to the POSTER rather than the content and concerns expressed in the POST? Why do people always insist in self-reflection? This is a SIMULATION forum, not a meditation and self-improvement site.
Also the topic was Normandy terrain and how ED said they're prioritizing it. In other words, you've STILL missed the topic with your "back on topic" line.


- Ice
#4342075 - 03/04/17 10:25 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Vaderini Offline
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Wow, there is so much hatred in you...

Don't know if I should feel pity or insulted.

Have you already tried talking to a psychiatrist?

#4342076 - 03/04/17 10:28 PM Re: Normandy Terrain [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted by Vaderini
Wow, there is so much hatred in you...

Don't know if I should feel pity or insulted.

Have you already tried talking to a psychiatrist?


Originally Posted by - Ice
What was I saying about shifting blame to the POSTER rather than the content and concerns expressed in the POST?



Thank you for proving my point. Ironic how YOU were the one harping about valid, thoughtful, and well argumented discussions.

As for hatred, well, I **AM** the GM in my local Star Wars RPG campaign and I do play exclusively Imperial in FFG's X-Wing and Armada games, so I take that as a compliment!


- Ice
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