Well sure, how else do you earn the title of "Internet Expert"?

I just remember the whole C-27 fiasco with the Air Force all too well; I won't trust anything they say about the F-35, since too many careers are dependent upon acceptance of the aircraft for service. Having said that, we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the need for the aircraft and whether or not history will justify that view - though I sorely hope I'm wrong.

I will add that I was wrong about the F/A-18 shootdown, as I was using dated information. There's actually strong evidence that it was shot down by a MiG-25, a lot of which has come out within the past 5 years. Nonetheless, that's an example of an extremely lucky shot on the part of the MiG-25 driver, as he had simply shot at random without confirming any hits. In other words, very similar to the F-117 shootdown over the former Yugoslavia.

Franze, for you to be right about the F-35, pretty much all of the military leaders of the USAF, USN, USMC, Norway, Denmark, Italy, Israel, the UK, and other countries would have to be wrong. And they all have access to information that I'm guessing you don't, so if I had to pick which group was most knowledgeable, I'd go with experts from the countries who are buying the F-35.

Many of those military leaders want a new toy because they're working with 30+ year old hardware that hasn't been upgraded in 20 years due to their inability to properly plan. You'll forgive me if I don't put much faith in military leaders that will blow $370,000 of taxpayer dollars to redo a foyer in their house - then turn around and ask why someone needs $50 in safety equipment to work in a construction zone.

I'm sorry, but I don't find that to be a convincing argument. Every air force leader from multiple countries would have to be corrupt for that to be true. Is that what you think, that all of the Dutch or the Israeli leaders, for example, are into spending tax money on their personal needs instead of on military needs? Do you have any evidence of that?

Additionally, there are certainly other aircraft they could buy - the Rafale, the Typhoon, the Super Hornet, etc., so why pick the F-35 if they just want something new?

Nuh-uh!

How Much Would It Cost To Build A Death Star?



There are other estimates of varying amounts, but they are all waaaaay more than what an F-35 costs.

Well, Australia DID pick the Super Hornet a few years ago. Not exclusively to replace the F-35, mind you, but to serve in the interim until they could get F-35s. Canada made a similar decision last year. In Denmark, there are indications that Boeing may take legal action against Denmark due to allegations of fraud in the selection process. For Norway, there is strong evidence that the US put political pressure on them to pick the F-35 over the Gripen.

Of course, that's not everyone, and that's a casual browsing of the net without thorough investigation, but there's a lot of indication that many of the partners are picking the F-35 for political reasons more than for cost and capability reasons.

I have no evidence of foreign leaders mismanaging their own taxpayer's funds - and it is absurd to assume that I have any. What I do have is personal experience with the US DOD and the associated military industrial complex, and from that I can gather much of the fraud, waste, and abuse that occurs is primarily a human problem that applies to everyone.

Australia purchased the Super Hornet to replace the F-111 which was retired much sooner than expected. The Australian Air Force (RAAF) planned to operate the F-111 until 2020 however as it's well known the RAAF F-111 fleet was forced to retire 10 years sooner (2010). And that's it about the Australian Super Hornet purchase - it had nothing to do with the F-35.




I won't even start about Canada or else this post of mine runs the risk of occupying several pages or worse the risk of this thread ending up in the PWEC forum!

However and speaking about Canada did you watch the video that I posted in my last post? Please answer YES or NO.

If no than please watch it.
You can see that basically every criticism made to the F/A-18 back in 1980 are the same applied nowadays to the F-35! Were those critics right about the F/A-18?? As you obviously know, they were NOT. The same goes for all the F-35 critics nowadays!




The Danish competition found exactly the same as the competitions in Japan and South Korea: The F-35 is the BEST OPTION in terms of quality and cost.
This was a PR maneuver from Boeing directly aimed to Canada which by now was (and still is) the only JSF partner nation that didn't select the F-35.





LoL the Gripen or more precisely the Gripen NG?? The aircraft which was expected to fly for the first time (pre-production airframe) for the first time in 2014, then delayed to 2015 and then delayed to 2016 and NOW delayed to 2017??
And critics still say that the F-35 is the only aerospace program facing problems?? At least there are hundreds of combat capable F-35 flying today. Now the Gripen NG which was supposed to be a much simpler project there's none. However it's funny that no-one claims that there are problems with the Gripen NG.

And people still wonder why Norway chose the F-35 over the Gripen NG - I wonder why??






Others have already addressed this so I'll reinforce it. Isn't it more probable that the F-35 was selected because it's indeed SUPERIOR to all other existing fighter aircraft? I believe that's "almost insane" to even consider that all the nations that choose the F-35 - and there are a lot of them, including Israel which for the obvious reasons don't mess up with critical weapons procurement - did this because of "political reasons/pressures".


Anyway, saying that F-35 which is the next step in evolution will be a failure would be the same as if we lived back in the late 1940's and say that upcoming the F-86 Sabre would be a failure and we should stick with P-51D Mustang instead. Well at least the P-51D Mustang still had a fighting chance against the F-86 (albeit minimal). Now the Super Hornet against the F-35?? Well I would feel really sorry for all those Super Hornet pilots - or any other 4th fighter aircraft pilot that would have to face the F-35 but heck, war is not fair!

And guess what?? Neither did the people that designed and build the F-35 and its systems - Does this means that such people aren't experts on the subject (F-35)?





At least I'm not a nonsense expert

I think ricnunes countered a lot of Franzes points, so I won't add much.

First, I am confident that there are all kinds of pressures applied from all sides during buying decisions like this, so I'm not surprised that the US was pushing it. And the Boeing lawsuit is pretty meaningless, because that's just standard business these days. They lost the tanker contract and sued, and are now late and over budget by billions on it. And they are also being sued by another company that lost the tanker support contract to them. That's what companies do now.

I would say that the whole corruption argument seems to be predicated on two views: first, that the system is completely corrupt, and second, that the F-35 is not the best aircraft for the job and was only chosen because of corruption.

I think that a question that would need to be addressed in regards to the F-35 is, wouldn't any aircraft decision be corrupt? Like when Canada pulled out, wouldn't corruption be just as likely there as if they hadn't? Maybe Boeing paid somebody off? That seems even more likely when you hear that the billions being spent by Canada on the Super Hornets may only result in a 12-year use of those aircraft:
Click Here

It seems that any time an aircraft other than the F-35 is chosen, all the F-35 bashers go "See!!!" but when the F-35 is chosen, it's "Corruption!!!" If the argument is that it must be corruption because the F-35 isn't the best aircraft, then I think proof needs to be presented showing that's the case. I really get the impression that a lot of people have decided that the F-35 is a bad airplane because of press stories but no real data, and then work backwards to try to justify that view, and jump on any info that seems to back it up.

Excellent post Arthonon.

I just want to add something to this comment of yours:



The fact is that in all and every competitions where the F-35 have been involved, the F-35 always won.

So far the competitions where the F-35 have been involved were in South Korea (against Boeing F-15 Silent Eagle and Eurofighter Typhoon), Japan (against Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon) and Denmark (also against Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Eurofighter Typhoon) and guess what? The F-35 was found to the best in almost every parameter including cost.
Isn't this more than enough indication that the F-35 is simply superior hands-down to any other fighter aircraft (except perhaps the F-22)? Afterall the F-35 is a 5th gen fighter aircraft while all others (again except the F-22) are 4th gen! Again the F-35 is superior to the Super Hornet just like the F-86 Sabre was superior to the P-51D or the F/A-18 was superior to the F-4 Phantom.

And by the way, everytime another aircraft was chosen (for example Saudi Arabia chose the Eurofighter Typhoon, Kuwait chose the Super Hornet, Brazil chose the Gripen NG and so on...) the F-35 was NOT offered to that particular country.

/OT



i found it extremely ridiculous as well so had to say this, only from another perspective.

since the buttons file decryption the FMs were readable and moddable. turns out the flight model engine was
very simplified <- proper way of saying it
rather crap <- my own take on it

it provides very few data points and can only be considered simplified/generic FM. 'twas totally stupid popping veins to fight over something this primitive.

nowadayz if i can't read/mod it i don't play it.

here the Bf109f4 FM from one of the versions - see how simple it is.


/OT

sorry and carry on.

Dropping the project now, shortly before the F-35 enters service, would be a rather dumb move, though. Especially after spending so much already for its development. Scrapping the F-35 program and instead developing a replacement would probably take another 20 years - even if such a project would receive funding right away - and the aging air-frames currently in service would have to jug on even longer...and their upkeep would not be cheap, either.

Whether it's the best thing since the invention of the wheel, or the biggest stinker in aircraft history, it's here and almost ready to enter service.

Only time will tell how capable the F-35 really is.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard that. Would seem to be pretty telling.

I had heard that Brazil chose the Gripen over the Super Hornet in part because of the NSA revelations of the US spying on Brazilian politicians and companies, and did a search to find that.

I did find a reference to it here:

http://www.stltoday.com/business/local/b...294bf81850.html

As Brazil�s decade-long fighter competition came to a close, Boeing was &#65279;seen as the favorite over Saab and French plane-maker Dassault. But the company appeared to lose momentum after news broke of National Security Agency spying on Brazilian companies and officials, including President Dilma Rouseff.

But on the subject of corruption, I also found this:

https://www.fool.com/investing/general/2...illion-for.aspx

An excerpt:

"...with French Dassault playing especially dirty, trading favors with then-Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva to improve its chances of winning the contract. You can read all about the details of the insider dealing [elsewhere]. But basically, France agreed to buy military equipment from Brazilian defense contractor Embraer (NYSE:ERJ), and even back an Olympic Games bid for Rio de Janeiro, if Brazil would choose Dassault's planes over those of Saab and Boeing.

This tangled web of favor-trading turned France's pricey Rafale, reportedly as much as $6.2 billion, plus $4 billion for maintenance contracts over 30 years, into the front-runner to win the contract. This was despite reports that Saab was offering to sell Brazil the Gripen for just $6 billion, maintenance included. Boeing's position, lacking Dassault's political connections and charging $7.7 billion for its plane (also including maintenance), looked tenuous in the extreme."

When it comes to wasting money, I think most now agree that stopping F-22 production when it did was a big mistake. The price had come down (the final one off the line cost $140m) and we really needed more. Instead, we're now looking at spending billions to extend the usefulness of the C model Eagles into the next few decades.
I don't think that cost-benefit analysis will come out right in about 20 years from now when we have a mere 180 35-yr old F-22s flying alongside 50+ yr old F-15Cs.



The Jedi Master

180 only if we don't lose any in training accidents, etc. The USAF has lost about 55 F15Cs, and as of 2010 had a total of 254 F15C/D in service. A total of 483 Cs were built, I didn't look for numbers but I'd be surprised if fewer than 300 went to the USAF. So, we could be looking at a 20% loss rate just from training accidents over about 35 years. We could be looking at 140-150 F22s left by 2040.

Huge mistake not building at least 100 more F-22's...

Also a huge mistake running the pilots oxygen system thru the engine....

What part of serious potential for trouble did some rocket scientist miss there?

Well the raptor doesn't sell and doesn't generate geopolitical influence like the lightning does. 'Tis fighter aircraft diplomacy.

I forget. How many F-22's were ultimately made? Something like 200?

189 I think? Not counting the YF-22s which were not used beyond testing.

The fact that Congress passed that brilliant "thou shalt not export the F-22" law certainly hurt. Japan was in, possibly Saudi Arabia and I'm sure Israel would've gone for them. In other words, all the countries that jumped on the F-15A back in the 70s. Could've sold another 100 easily between those 3, further lowering the price.

Instead, they were made to wait for the F-35. Ironically, while its A2A performance is lower than the 22, in many ways it is more advanced and certainly more capable in the A2G role.

But no one ever said Congress was well-informed or made good decisions.



The Jedi Master

plus the buiz opportunities and jobs and influence it creates worldwide since it's multinational, i.e.
https://www.f35.com/global/participation/italy

f-22 program haven't this kinda reach