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#4582052 - 10/06/21 05:53 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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VonS Offline
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Hello BB --

Ver. 2.9.2 is swell indeed on older WOFF installs. In terms of theories, all I can say is that it probably comes down to a couple of factors, one being what version of the "Historical Weather Mod" one is running in conjunction with the clouds mod.

For example, I have two vers. of the weather mod. downloaded - ver. 1.4.5 (that gives more flying in bad weather) and ver. 2.0.x (that gives more flying in good weather). I have so far never run ver. 2.0.x and keep ver. 1.4.5 loaded in my WOFF PE/UE 4.18 "backport."

So, in terms of my observations -- ver. 3.0.0 of your cloud pack worked well in my previous (fairly stock) install of WOFF PE ver. 5.0.3, and the 1.4.5 weather mod. activated (there were no strange days with simultaneous rain and clear skies). On the other hand, in my ver. 4.18 backport of WOFF, ver. 3.0.0 of the clouds pack did not play well with the 1.4.5 weather mod., but ver. 2.9.2 of the clouds works beautifully with the 1.4.5 weather mod.

My backport-thingy install has backported all PE-era terrains, and aircraft, including the Fokk. D.VI, into a UE install that uses the ver. 4.18 exe to give me SweetFX. Also backported, in conjunction with the terrains, are all of the seasons and weather-related files from my previous, fairly stock ver. 5.03 install of WOFF. In terms of mods. that I am running in my (Franken) WOFF contraption - most are PE-era mods. - there was no need to stick with UE-era mods. in such a hybrid install - no anomalies spotted - except with the ver. 3.0.0 clouds pack (that is WOFF PE-era) when it is run together with weather mod. ver. 1.4.5.

My guess at this point, therefore, is that the historical weather mod. version is important to take note of, in conjunction with what ver. of the clouds pack is being run. For ver. 2.9.2 of the clouds pack, and earlier, best is probably to stick with the ver. 1.4.5 weather mod. Weather mod. 2.0.x on the other hand should be used only with your clouds mod. ver. 3.0.0 and above. The ver. 1.4.5 weather mod. may be more "forward-compatible" than ver. 2.0.x of the weather mod., since it worked well for me when I had my fairly stock WOFF PE 5.03 installed, together with your ver. 3.0.0 clouds pack running in WOFF PE. I wouldn't be surprised if weather mod. ver. 1.4.5 continues to behave well even with your latest ver. 4.0.x of the clouds pack that you are working on for BH&H2 -- the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that there is less risk of simultaneous sunny/raining anomalies with weather mod. ver. 1.4.5 -- no matter what ver. of WOFF or what ver. of your clouds mod. is being run, but keep in mind that these are only my observations from what I've been running on my rig.

At this point I would, at any rate, not recommend weather mod. 2.0.x for WOFF UE-era (or hybrid UE-era installs of WOFF) - only for PE-era and later, and that it be used only with your clouds mod. 3.0.0 or later (not with ver. 2.9.2).

The other possible factor related to weather patterns/anomalies may be the WOFF executables themeselves, However, I doubt that there is something hard-coded into WOFF exe 5.x or later, as compared with WOFF exe 4.x or earlier, and that controls/randomizes the frequency of cloudy days versus sunny days when flying in WOFF. The same logic would apply to WOFF exe 6.x or later (BH&H2) -- I think the more important factor is what I have written above regarding cloud mod. and weather mod. combinations.

In terms of BH&H2, I am so far only running stock weather patterns in it, and the slightly enhanced 1 MB+ sized clouds found in the old 4L0M standalone clouds pack that dates to the WOFF UE-era - so I can't offer any observations there on weather mod. and your cloud mod. combinations that work best.

Good luck with your ver. 4.x clouds pack - I look forward to it.

Von S smile2


Last edited by VonS; 10/06/21 06:00 PM. Reason: Edited post.

~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4582056 - 10/06/21 06:41 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Thank you BB for taking the time to answer my questions. Certainly an interesting look into the matter, and given the situation with your father, it's genuinely appreciated that you should be willing to spend time on this. I personally try to avoid saying "I know how you feel", simply because I don't think it's possible for me to know how you feel, no matter what I may have experienced myself. That said, I can appreciate the circumstances - and I extend by best wishes to you and your family as you cope.

If, at some point, you can elaborate on how things are 'messed up', I wouldn't mind hearing - but I believe it's better for all if your time (whatever you can afford, mind) doing this were spent working on correcting the issues. We are lucky to have someone who is willing to commit the effort.

Now, I'll ask you to indulge one other question, if you please: Since it sounds as if the work you're doing is such a significant improvement over 'stock', one has to wonder when/whether it will at some point become part of the stock sim. No doubt, the small OBD team does their best, and it seems as if work like yours would be welcomed (though I'm sure there must be challenges, and I don't have first-hand knowledge of what they involve).

Here's why I ask: I am not given to having to deal with manually applying mods etc in order to play a game. Just my own personal perspective. I work with software and systems all day, and have for 35+ years, so when it comes to my 'off time' I just prefer to be able to enjoy something that doesn't require me to fiddle with or troubleshoot. (At that point, I normally get paid and it becomes work lol). But, as evidenced by your own ongoing effort and commitment, there are some things that can be improved upon 'out of the box'.

For me, it would be so much easier and make so much more sense - assuming the improvements are what they purport to be (and I have zero reason to doubt it) - if they were part of the sim itself.

Another factor is OBD doesn't necessarily support modded installs (as is certainly their prerogative)...so anything installed after the fact is always going to be looked at as a potential problem that isn't officially supported. Again, seems to me it would be best if this were not an obstacle.

Your thoughts?

(PS. I want to be perfectly clear here that the foregoing are my own perspectives and opinions, to which each of us is entitled. I don't wish to see a conflict raised over this...it's just a question, and a fair and reasonable one at that. Thanks).

#4582086 - 10/06/21 10:24 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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VonS Offline
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Good points KK -- while I can't speak for BB's excellent cloud mods. and integration of said mods. into stock WOFF -- I can offer a few general observations of my own, and having worked on some mods. for WOFF over the years (such as my FM packs and GPU Tuners for WOFF/WOTR).

a) OBD is very friendly towards mods. and modding, providing that proper copyright acknowledgement is given, which is a refreshing change from many other sims. and reminds me of the best spirit of modding typical of the First Eagles 2 (ThirdWire) community, so well done on that note gents, as well as, of course, on the excellent developments to stock WOFF too

b) I am assuming that OBD is a two or three-man team at most, so they neither have the resources nor time to invest into full-time testing, support, and integration of the many mods. available for WOFF into stock WOFF; a fourth person would probably be required to be on the team and to test mods. 24/7, to troubleshoot, etc., and to make sure that all mods. are fully compatible at all times with the latest iteration of WOFF, as well as to support user concerns/questions regarding such mods. - a daunting task

c) some mods. have, as far as I know, been integrated into stock WOFF over the years, such as the "News mod." from many years back, as well as, if I'm not mistaken, ver. 1.4.x (one or two versions prior to 1.4.5) of the "Historical Weather Mod." - so mod. integration does happen into stock WOFF, on rare occasions, but (as indicated in point b, above) - it isn't possible for OBD simultaneously to troubleshoot/support all mods. and work on stock WOFF coding/development

On another, optimistic note -- 99% of mods., or so, available for WOFF UE/PE/BHAH2 are JSGME-friendly -- so a click or two, or three, is all it takes to load mods. into WOFF -- very convenient compared, for example, to First Eagles 2 where hardly any mods. are JSGME-friendly. Then again, why someone would want to run stock FE2, or make mods. easily off-loadable in FE2, is beyond my understanding. biggrin

Cheers all and happy WOFFing (stock or modded),
Von S smile2


Last edited by VonS; 10/06/21 10:27 PM. Reason: Edited post.

~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4582101 - 10/07/21 04:05 AM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: kksnowbear]  
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Thank you for the kind words, kksnowbear. Dad isn't going anywhere soon, I don't think. He's still a tough old bird! Thank you also for your endorsement of my cloud mod.

In regard to your question, I agree with VonS that OBD is very supportive of mods and the modding community. In fact, as VonS says, they have even incorporated a few mods into the stock game, including my Historical Weather mod, as well as the News mod, which I also had a hand in creating. With regard to graphics mods, I expect that OBD needs to be much more careful. In addition to changing the look of the game, perhaps in undesirable ways, the devs also have to be concerned with frame rates and overall performance. There is also the issue of continued support of the mod. What happens if they accept a mod and a problem occurs in the future? Or, perhaps a new add-on pack or update changes WOFF in a way that makes the mod incompatible? The original modder may have moved on to other games. What happens to the game then? Still, I know for a fact that they have included some graphics mods as improvements to the game. Naturally, they prefer to do it themselves, but they will accept a third-party mod as long as it meets their requirements.

I'll try and address how the original CFS3 files may be messed up in my next post.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582102 - 10/07/21 04:47 AM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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First, I probably shouldn't have said that the files are borked. It's probably more accurate to say that the files are complex, and that the original CFS3 was likely released without adequate testing. Without going into all of the variables involved, I can say that some of the variables do seem to be mislabeled. For example, one variable is cloud height, but it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the height or altitude of a cloud off the ground. Instead, it seems to control the length of the cloud sprite or texture "painted" onto the sky. There are also values to control the X,Y, and Z coordinates for clouds, but they also don't work quite the way I would expect, or perhaps I just don't understand 3D coordinate systems.

Another pair of variables controls how many sprite textures are painted into the sky, but there doesn't seem to be a linear relationship between the number entered and the amount of cloud textures you see in the game. Sometimes when you increase this number, the cloud textures increase, but sometimes they decrease, instead. This pair of variables also seems to have something to do with some instances of cloud popping. For example, one of the darker cloud files was producing a good level of cloud popping of a particularly dark cloud. For whatever reason, changing the "minsprites" value from 4 to 5 seemed to stop that cloud from popping. Go figure.

Updating the cloud mod to reduce cloud popping and flashing is a lot like that. Most of it involves semi-random tweaking and testing of different values to see what effect they have. Sometimes it works, sometime it doesn't. Unfortunately, I have also found that even after updating the cloud file .xml files, each individual cloud type .xml file also has to be tweaked in order to get the cloud to look and behave the way I want it to behave. Even then, sometimes I encounter problems. For example, not long ago I thought I had cured one particular cloud of cloud popping. However, I then discovered that the cloud popping that disappeared while flying in an east-west direction reappeared when flying in a north-south direction! Back to the drawing board. After several more hours of late night tweaking and testing, I finally managed to reduce most of the cloud popping, at least in the cardinal directions. I still don't know what may happen when flying SE to NW, though!

I also believe that sun position, brightness, and skybox type may also have an influence on cloud flashing, but I don't think I can do anything about that. Fortunately, the flashing these produce does not seem to be quite as severe.

After explaining all that, does anyone want to take over my job for me? biggrin


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582166 - 10/07/21 05:31 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Looks like no takers. The job is yours!
Talk about job security.


"Take the cylinder out of my kidneys,
The connecting rod out of my brain, my brain,
From out of my arse take the camshaft,
And assemble the engine again."
#4582170 - 10/07/21 05:59 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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No on wants to take over my job? I wonder why???

Maybe I need to hire a few Igor's to work for me? zombie


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582392 - 10/11/21 02:16 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: VonS]  
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Originally Posted by VonS
Fine work BB - nice seeing those classic, ominous clouds from the WOFF UE era (courtesy of your previous cloud packages) being made ready for BH&H2. I'm thoroughly enjoying your ver. 2.9.2 cloud pack in my FrankenWOFF 4.18. Recommended for stock WOFF PE, instead, is ver. 3.0 of your pack (ver. 3.0 gives the odd rainy-sunshine day when used with the WOFF 4.18 exe, but ver. 2.9.2 fixes the problem).

Cheers all and happy flying even in rain (but do watch for joint and glue weaknesses in the wings smile2 ),
Von S


Originally Posted by BuckeyeBob
VonS--

Glad you continue to enjoy version 2.9.2 of the mod. Do you have any theories why version 3.0 sometimes produces rainy, clear days and 2.9.2 does not? I have been so busy with version 4.0 that I haven't had much time to consider why 3.0 has this problem.


Originally Posted by VonS
Hello BB --

Ver. 2.9.2 is swell indeed on older WOFF installs. In terms of theories, all I can say is that it probably comes down to a couple of factors, one being what version of the "Historical Weather Mod" one is running in conjunction with the clouds mod.

For example, I have two vers. of the weather mod. downloaded - ver. 1.4.5 (that gives more flying in bad weather) and ver. 2.0.x (that gives more flying in good weather). I have so far never run ver. 2.0.x and keep ver. 1.4.5 loaded in my WOFF PE/UE 4.18 "backport."

So, in terms of my observations -- ver. 3.0.0 of your cloud pack worked well in my previous (fairly stock) install of WOFF PE ver. 5.0.3, and the 1.4.5 weather mod. activated (there were no strange days with simultaneous rain and clear skies). On the other hand, in my ver. 4.18 backport of WOFF, ver. 3.0.0 of the clouds pack did not play well with the 1.4.5 weather mod., but ver. 2.9.2 of the clouds works beautifully with the 1.4.5 weather mod.
...

The other possible factor related to weather patterns/anomalies may be the WOFF executables themeselves, However, I doubt that there is something hard-coded into WOFF exe 5.x or later, as compared with WOFF exe 4.x or earlier, and that controls/randomizes the frequency of cloudy days versus sunny days when flying in WOFF. The same logic would apply to WOFF exe 6.x or later (BH&H2) -- I think the more important factor is what I have written above regarding cloud mod. and weather mod. combinations.
...

Von S smile2


Thanks, VonS. I have bolded the part of your reply that highlights what I think is the actual problem, now that I have thought about it. I now remember that while working on OCM 3.0, I changed a variable in the Background weather section to fix the "blue hole" problem that existed in a few heavy cloud types in stock WOFF. With PE, I could create a grey overcast cloud that covered up this hole. For whatever reason, BHaH2 seems to have removed the overcast cloud but leaves the rain, making it appear to rain with blue skies (BHaH2 stock also has this problem of rain with a blue sky, occasionally). Fortunately, I think I have discovered a workaround for this problem which should be implemented in OCM 4.0.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582401 - 10/11/21 05:36 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Hello BB -- glad to hear that the info. I posted was helpful. It seems therefore that stock BH&H2 and WOFF 4.x.x-era installs treat weather similarly (both remove the overcast layer), whereas WOFF 5.x.x-era is perhaps more easily patch-able regarding that. This would explain why your fix for the removed overcast layer - OCM ver. 3.x.x - does not fix the rainy-sunshine day problem in WOFF 4.x.x or WOFF 6.x.x (BH&H2). I look forward to OCM 4.0, as I'm sure do many other WOFFers. (I will keep my FrankenWOFF 4.18 install therefore intact, even once I move fully to BH&H2 - since these comparative/multiple setups help to narrow down possible problems/fixes.)

Cheers all,
Von S smile2


~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
#4582410 - 10/11/21 07:56 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Great! Sounds like a plan!

I have made some progress today on the cloud mod, finding and significantly reducing the cloud flashing in four BB cloud files.

In addition to all of the fixes and improvements, there will also be at least six new cloud types in OCM 4.0, bringing the total to over 120, including all the existing WOFF clouds (revised) and around 16 clouds from Panama Red's original cloud mod, which was the inspiration for this work! The new cloud types are:

BB Grey Altocumulus Clouds
BB Light Altocumulus Clouds
BB Light Wispy Clouds
BB Overcast Sky
BB Small Grey Cumulus Clouds
BB Widely Scattered Fluffy Clouds

I still have a fair amount of tweaking and testing to do, but I do believe I can glimpse a little light at the end of the tunnel!

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/11/21 08:00 PM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582433 - 10/12/21 11:21 AM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Hallo @BB,

WOW, great!

Just a short request:
Please cover up the blue hole again for the overcast cloud cover.


Thanks and Greetings!

#4582472 - 10/12/21 10:51 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Thanks, Becker01. The "blue hole" problem is more complicated than you might think, but I think I have found a workaround. An ideal solution would probably involve new skybox graphics, but I'm afraid that is beyond my capabilities at the moment.


“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582478 - 10/13/21 06:20 AM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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@BB,

you are right! I haven't known the work with the blue hole. Sorry!
Nice, that you have found a wokaround.

Greetings!

#4582518 - 10/13/21 07:31 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Here are a few examples of my efforts to get rid of the "blue hole problem." I hope this is something close to what you had in mind. Currently, I'm not entirely sure why the sun effect is reduced in the second picture but not the fourth.


Attached Files BB Storm Clouds OCM 3.jpgBB Storm Clouds OCM 4.jpgBB Mostly Cloudy OCM 3.jpgBB Mostly Cloudy OCM 4.jpg
Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/13/21 07:33 PM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582529 - 10/13/21 09:43 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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On to the front lines! With new cloud, BB Small Grey Cumulus Clouds.

Attached Files To the Front 1.jpgTo the Front 2.jpg

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582530 - 10/13/21 09:45 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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And a few more sunset pics with OCM 4.0

Attached Files Sunset 1.jpgSunset 2.jpgSunset 3.jpgSunset 4.jpg

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582538 - 10/13/21 10:11 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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BB -

Jaw dropping screens there. As someone who has lived WOFF 8 hrs plus/ day for the last 19 months, I thank you. Your efforts are greatly appreciated. Your Cloud mod graced Oliver's many screenies before BHAH and I hope they will again.

Keep up the good work and I hope your father continues on the mend.

Best Regards,

#4582550 - 10/14/21 06:27 AM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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@BB,

the blue hole-pictures:
I have used OCM till OCM 3.0 with PE. You got it to cover the blue hole over the head. And in my memory I could see the sun in the middle of the day through the cloud-laye over you; similar to picture 2 and 4.

So you are on a good way in my opinion.

Greetings!

#4582568 - 10/14/21 06:02 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Thank you epower. I am very happy if even a few of my cloud creations have contributed in any way to some of your wonderful DiD stories--if only to provide you with a little more "atmosphere." wink

@Becker01,

Thanks. Although there is still a bit of a hole there, it has been covered up more effectively, at least for heavy clouds. A cure for the sun shining brightly through overcast and dark clouds would likely either require a coding fix, or a combination of a less intensive sun effect and JJJ65's Mission Editor.

To everyone: I am getting closer to releasing a beta version of the mod for testing. If interested, please post a request in this thread.

Last edited by BuckeyeBob; 10/14/21 06:05 PM.

“With Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. With me it is merely good manners. You may judge which motive is the more reliable.”
#4582570 - 10/14/21 06:26 PM Re: Optional Cloud Mod (with Historical Weather files) [Re: BuckeyeBob]  
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Yes please - I would like to give the ver. 4.0 beta clouds a go both in my FrankenWOFF 4.18 and BH&H2 ver. 1.16 installs - while I'm a bit busy with real work currently, I will do my best to test things like weather anomalies, how healthy the FPS are, etc. - and will comment as soon as I can. Feel free to PM-me a link to the beta download when it's ready for testing BB.

Cheers all,
Von S smile2


~ For my various FM/AI/FPS/DM Mods. for First Eagles 2, WoFF, RoF & WoTR, and tips for FlightGear, recommended is to check over my CombatAce profile (https://combatace.com/profile/86760-vons/) and to click on the "About Me" tab while there. ~
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