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#4387488 - 10/31/17 02:49 AM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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It's a huge change to stock 4.33. Of course we want to use this change to make things more challenging, but it works the other way at lower settings, and allows a great degree of customization, so that players of any level can set up a campaign tailored to their comfort level. If I were a new player just starting out, I'd love to have the option to have overwhelming air superiority right off the bat. Without this change, that cannot happen. With this change, it certainly can, depending on campaign.

It appears to me that this change also affects ground force ratios as well. And as I mentioned over on the BMS forum, the sliders make it so you can set it up with a great degree of customization, like it used to be smile

Ace campaigns are back to being a true challenge. I wouldn't recommend anyone play on Ace unless they are prepared to get hands-on. There's something awesome about having just 12 aircraft in your squadron. Each and every loss is keenly felt.

Schnidrman and I have been talking about going Ace for the online stuff. I wonder which campaign would prove the best for this? I was thinking Rolling Fire. Remember the Wall O' MiGs we used to always talk about in the old days? It would be back big time, since you don't have the strength to overwhelm it any longer. Every Red plane downed and every jet you bring home means something.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
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#4387494 - 10/31/17 04:05 AM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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My issue with the campaigns is that I cannot look at the "big picture" like you guys can. I can look at my flight, my package, and that's about it. I try to fly smart and bring back the aircraft in good condition, but I don't have the ability to determine whether the guys over at the next airbase are walking into a trap.

I just may start a campaign and post it here and see what help I can get and what new things I can learn. I do remember the "bars" in Allied Force which showed whether Blue or Red was winning or losing, but again, I never really felt like I could influence those bars directly.


- Ice
#4387527 - 10/31/17 11:32 AM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Go for it! I will be happy to throw my 2 cents in. Honestly, there are few things I enjoy discussing more than Falcon 4 campaigns. And with guys like Axe and Schnidrman around you have a lot of old hands to help out. I guarantee you would learn much, and by the time it's over you'll have the ability to see the big picture. Plus a victory in the logbook, and a promotion or two to boot.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387538 - 10/31/17 12:52 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Hehehe... I think because of my learning experience in F4AF, I never really bothered with how my logbook looks like. I had a lot of deaths and Blue-on-Blue at the time, so ignorance is bliss.... and continues to this day smile

My one big issue with flying campaigns is having to babysit the AI.... can you tell me what you do with those guys? When I can, I just used to have them hold in the IP, I go do the mission, then either jump into #2 if I get shot down or if I come back successful, we RTB. The only time I really use the wingman is for A-A fights where I sometimes sic him onto the target while I stay back and support.


- Ice
#4387541 - 10/31/17 01:27 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Well that depends. I will rarely have the AI orbit while I complete the mission. In that case I may as well have fragged a solo flight. And frankly, these days I do a lot of solo flights, especially online. Yeah, it's not realistic, but it means I won't lose the airframe to AI stupidity.

But that said, I find the AI quite competent. What I tend to do is choose and assign targets for the AI. I will lock an aircraft and give an attack my target command for example. Or perhaps if we are on SEAD/DEAD I select the radar and tell him to attack. As soon as I hear Magnum I issue a rejoin. I always fly with 3 kick-out commands, which puts the AI a couple miles behind, so I fly far enough in front to select and assign. If things get hairy I use weapons free and rejoin alot. It's difficult to chainsaw with the AI, though it can be done. So mostly we are flying as a linked pair.

If we are attacking a ground facility or a vehicle column, I put the AI wingman in trail, and then 3 kickouts, which puts him several miles in trail. That way I can assign his target, make my drop or attack, and then he comes through and does his. This avoids having us both attacking at the same time, and possibly hitting the same target.

So I wouldn't call it hand holding, more a guiding hand. I check regularly his weapon and fuel state, and if he's down to heaters or winchester I send him RTB. Wingman commands are robust in F4. Sure, it's still the AI and you'll shake your head sometimes. But once you get the hang of it you can puppet him in to a pretty effective combat jet. There's plenty more to discuss, and I'd enjoy that, but those are some basic things I do.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387546 - 10/31/17 01:50 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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I do what DBond just described or preferably frag a single-ship if going down the danger zone.
I can see that above is what Ice would call babysit the AI and yes, one has to.

When I fly with AI my first thing is guiding/assigning them to a target and based upon their success I finish off the target or go for a secondary target.

RTB is a common radio call to them, true. But you can also call "Clear My Six" when they disposed all their ground ordnance (which btw I have a hard time to get them to do, they should follow your SMS settings, right? or was that Allied Force?)

They come in handy to counter red intercepts if bounced so it really comes from the general campaign situation when and how many AI I bring along.

(Brnik airbase top-right map in Balkans tend to eat AI planes so go singe-ship from up there)

#4387548 - 10/31/17 02:08 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Oden! wave


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387558 - 10/31/17 05:14 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Another thing that I occasionally do with the wingman, is take him along set up for a different role. Like I might want to hit a nuclear plant. I can mostly flatten it on my own, at least knock it offline. So the wingman can be armed with only air missiles to cover me, or I can give him HARMs and carry a HTS myself and pick out radars on the ingress to help clear the way for my attack. There's no requirement to have him flying the same mission profile.

I seem to rarely frag myself four-ships, usually just a pair. Things become more complicated when you are controlling three AI flight members of course. Well technically, two wingmen, since you can only issue element commands to #3 and #4. You also have the option to make AI other flights within the package. In that case they will more or less get it done on their own. Lots of latitude in setting up campaign missions.



Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387629 - 10/31/17 11:43 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Well, having him orbit means I can focus on what I need to do. What you describe is exactly what I call "babysitting".... even a newbie human pilot does not need that much "guiding hand" smile But I guess I'll have to do this if I want to return to flying campaigns.

Bombing a nuke plant is easy, and so is sic'ing him onto a bugged A-A target. It's when things get dicey that I don't like the AI.... and we all know how many times a plan survives first contact wink If the area has been sanitized beforehand, then I have no issues of using the AI, but this is usually late into the campaign. On the early missions, where airframe numbers count, well, I'm not a very good babysitter.


- Ice
#4387680 - 11/01/17 12:30 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Yes, I'd say that the things we are describing are the minimum required to have an effective AI wingman. If you don't want to do this, there's no reason you couldn't frag solo missions. Or just do what you described and set him to orbit while you attack.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387736 - 11/01/17 05:18 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Not a peep out of the devs or anyone else at the BMS forum, so I say we plow ahead and see how it goes.

Possible they don't have any idea of what effects this might have? They mention re-supply rate in the changelog right? So perhaps this will be faster with settings that have fewer aircraft?

Maybe as we learn more we can report back to them smile


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4387971 - 11/03/17 04:47 AM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by Tazz
I'm referring to the Iron Fortress campaign that's part of the "Original Korea Theater" that comes with BMS 4.32.7 - I think it's also included in BMS 4.33.3 but I'm still stuck on 4.32.7 as that supports 32-bit Windows XP.


Originally Posted by DBond
OK, just trying to understand. There are two Korean theaters in BMS 4.33. Koreean Theater of Operations (KTO) which is default. And Strong DPRK Theater. The classic IF is in the latter. Could it be a 4.32 thing? Were planesets revised for 4.33? That would 'splain it.


I installed the new BMS version a few days ago. I can confirm that 4.33 removed the Original Korea Theater that's being mentioned here. Though, I copied over the OKT files from 4.32 into a handmade 4.33 campaign folder and it seems to run fine (though I haven't tested it extensively). OKT provides OOBs closest to the original game's late 1990s timeline, to my preference.

#4388004 - 11/03/17 12:46 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Yeah, that makes sense and explain what Tazz was saying.

I never played 4.32. So what is/was it? Tiger Spirit, Rolling Fire and classic Iron Fortress? The 'new' Iron Fortress in the KTO is only a 4.33 thing?



Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4388020 - 11/03/17 02:35 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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4.32 had the following theaters:
- Korea (the "stock BMS" campaign)
- Original Korea
- Korea Strong DPRK
- Korea Old Aircraft
- Korea TvT

4.33 removed Original Korea and Korea Old Aircraft; I do not know why. The "new" Iron Fortress was always there as part of the stock BMS Korea theater. They were designed by Scoob_SBM who provided the following design notes:

https://www.bmsforum.org/forum/show...ced&p=78378&viewfull=1#post78378

#4388024 - 11/03/17 02:51 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Thanks. Good stuff Tac.

Interesting comments in that thread. Iron Fortress was not 'essentially unwinnable'. That's silly. But it explains why we have the new Iron Fortress I suppose. But as I mentioned earlier in this thread, it should have a different name. It clouds the issue with two entirely different campaigns sharing the same name. I suggested Over the Ramparts smile

I would like the option to restore the AF campaigns with all three theaters. Those campaigns worked the best, and the three 'eras' gave nice variety and jumps in difficulty. The Balkans seems to be a 'straight port' of the AF ones, so I'm sure this is possible, but whether it easy or legal I do not know.

It's also interesting that he says Tiger Spirit is intended to be the most challenging air to air. I suppose it is in the early hours, in BMS anyway.

I've long intended to rework the campaigns to my liking. Maybe I'll look in to this over the winter. At the very least I'd like to overhaul the OoBs and active bases, and possibly victory objectives as well.

Last edited by DBond; 11/03/17 02:59 PM.

Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4388027 - 11/03/17 03:27 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: TacError]  
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Originally Posted by TacError
[quote=Tazz]
I installed the new BMS version a few days ago. I can confirm that 4.33 removed the Original Korea Theater that's being mentioned here. Though, I copied over the OKT files from 4.32 into a handmade 4.33 campaign folder and it seems to run fine (though I haven't tested it extensively). OKT provides OOBs closest to the original game's late 1990s timeline, to my preference.


Keep us posted on your testing. I read a post about someone adding 4.32 files to 4.33 DB and the BMS team basically said, fly at your own risk and don't call us when it breaks. Don't know if this applies to theaters though.


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#4388076 - 11/03/17 06:13 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Will do. Right now I'm messing around with the U..S/ROK squadron stores to make the weapons fit the 1998 setting better.

#4388084 - 11/03/17 06:35 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Sparrows smile

I gotta say, the Sparrow used to be seen as the red headed step child in the AF days, no one seemed to like to use them. But I did. It's the one radar missile you can fire in to mixed airspace with some degree of comfort.

Oh and the Shrike. I like shooting those too.


Animals flee this hell, the hardest stones cannot bear it for long. Only men endure
#4388110 - 11/03/17 08:06 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Yep. I've readded Sparrows to the stores and made the AIM-120B a "premium weapon" with very low availability.

#4388111 - 11/03/17 08:09 PM Re: Falcon 4 Campaigns [Re: DBond]  
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Originally Posted by DBond
..
Oh and the Shrike. I like shooting those too.

No no and just no!
biggrin

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