Hello.

I was going to ask the devs this directly but thought I'd post this publicly and initiate a civil, thoughtful exchange of opinion.

How will WOTR treat the swastika? I *hope* the sim remains as historically accurate as WOFF and doesn't either omit them or put some fake "kinda-swastika" on the planes, as have other sims, although everybody knows what it's supposed to be anyway. That's as ridiculous as depicting Hitler but omitting his mustache. "See? It's not really Hitler." Yeah, yeah, I know, the swastika is illegal in Germany. I don't live in Germany. I love Germany/Germans, but most of us don't live in Germany. I'm neither scared of nor offended by the swastika--many of our countries helped crush the Nazis 72 years ago. Time for everyone to stop being scared of them.

Will WOTR have two builds--with/without swastika--for country-dependent downloads, similar to Wings of Prey? Or will there be a Workshop Setting for "Swastika On/Off"? Or will I and others have to do a lot of skinning to make all the German skins historically correct after the sim is released?

I'm hoping there could be a workshop setting for that. Or at least an option to download a "swastika pack" or something to get the emblem to show correctly on German planes.

IMO, the whole ban is quite silly when it's being used to censor swastikas from historical games and sims. It's even worse when swastikas that historically had nothing to do with Nazism (like the Finnish air force emblem) also get censored.

Geez, history is history and we should all be open enough to accept what has happened in the past. Why we would choose to hide it makes no sense. It should only come down to whether or not by displaying it we intended to glorify it or just recognize it existed. Displaying Nazi items for glorification or promoting what they stood for would not be appropriate IMHO. Maybe our society just need more time for acceptance of what was. The fact that symbols acceptable for long periods of history, can be suppressed due to the adoption by a bad regime makes no logical sense to me. The focus should be on the regime and not the symbol as being bad.

I doubt that any of the veterans from WWII ever thought to suppress the visibility of such items.

Sorry for the rant folks!

unfortunately it's illegal in Germany I agree though it should be an option

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It's ridiculous in an historical context to alter or ban such things. When you do so it becomes revisionist history and that can be far, far more dangerous, (you need only read "historical" accounts that show there were no death camps in WWII and that it was actually nothing more than propaganda initiated by the Allied forces). We have a similar situation going on in the U.S. right now with the Confederate battle flag and how many in our country want its image to disappear from everywhere, history included.

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Exactly (and I fully agree)!

By the way and as a "side note":

"Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it"

+1 to all of that, however I believe the symbol is illegal in some countries (as Wodin pointed out) and therefore the devs may have to at least create an option in the Workshop. Sometimes you have to do something you don't want to, not because it's politically correct but because it's what the law requires, despite your desire to respect history.

Like it or not, there are places in this world where swastikas are illegal for very good reasons. And they're not going to change their minds just so we can play an 'historically accurate' Flight Sim. I think Hasse has the solution.

I think every one of us can think of laws from our own countries that we consider 'silly,' wrong or misguided.

But the prohibition on Nazi symbols is German law.

Wikipedia entry on this law

I'm not an expert on law in any country, but I understand paragraph 1 to mean that possession of such images is an offence that could lead to a fine or imprisonment.

Paragraph 3 leads to a possible loophole (historical uses) but from my reading, while films have frequently been given a pass, games have not.

We cannot ask German users to commit a felony. It isn't reasonable.

I think the simplest solution is to have 'fake badges' on the base product and a separate skin pack with all the swastikas correctly depicted.

Yes, we know the prohibition of Nazi symbols in German law--German law. German law should not mandate the actions of, or product availability for, the rest of the world. The vast majority of OBD's customers--at least among those who post in various fora--do not live in Germany. Take a look:

http://combatace.com/topic/44370-off-forum-pilots-maps/

Still, I understand OBD wouldn't want to say "tough luck" to the Germans, buy at your own risk, because of the potential loss of business. The approach of Wings of Prey was a great solution: You verified you lived in a country without such a ridiculous law, and the swastikas were "unlocked." But if there wouldn't be a separate ahistorical download of WOTR for German customers, I'd be fine with Maeran's suggestion that bogus fauxstikas be included in the stock WOTR release. As long as there is the immediate availability of a separate skin pack with historically accurate markings. Which would be EASY for official OBD skinners to compile as they skinned.

Other software companies have addressed this issue in the past usually substituting the Balkenkreuz for the swastika. I'm sure someone will create a patch for download to address. It is ridiculous, but for Germany, it is the law. I'm sure at some point the U.S. will eventually get around to making the Confederate Battle Flag illegal here.

Not only the Confederate Battleflag I feel they will not stop there they are removing statues as well. I feel history should be left alone. You cannot undo your past so live with it. I am from German descent, My family came over before the Civil War. I see no problem using the swastika as it was used by the German military. I do understand that it is still a very sensitive problem in Germany. I like so many others feel the need could be addressed with a patch of some sort. My feeling on History is tell it like it was, because how can we know where we are going if we do not know where we have been.

I don't think it's a ridiculous law. Of course you can see them in movies, in documentations, history books, newspapers etc., in Germany as well. It's used in an informational or historical context. The reason for this law is mainly to prevent the trash to wear it as tattoos, or as a flag in the homes or windows, or on demonstrations etc. Of course everybody knows the symbol. But having it officially prohibited shows well to the stupid generations of nowadays, and even more stupid generations in the future, what that symbol stood for and what it caused. It's to keep it from getting trivialized or worshiped. Maybe not to us and especially the generation before us, but for the next to come.
IMO having it in a computergame shouldn't be a problem, though.

p.s. btw. I don't think that many people, especially not the trash worshipping it, know that the swastika was actually a symbol for luck. I don't think that this is common knowledge.

Nat Hentoff, the American writer/critic who died last week at 91, and who was himself Jewish, once adamantly defended the right of a neo-Nazi group to march through a predominantly Jewish neighbourhood. Distasteful as the affair was, I think he had the right of it. Banning these people or their symbols is more likely to add to their self-esteem and credibility.

German censorship of video games is a pretty large issue, and goes far beyond Nazi imagery, although that is the largest one. It basically comes down to that fact that (at least under German law), unlike films or television, video games are not "art", and therefore not subject to the same kind of exemptions those other media are. And, if games aren't art, they can really only be categorised as toys, no matter what they might actually be, or their ESRB rating (and such categorisation is necessary for taxation, import/export customs, advertisement, etc. etc.), much in the same way model kits are taxed as toys when shipped across international borders, despite not being something you would generally let a child play with. Violent imagery and gore is also heavily censored in video games under German law, with games that refuse to comply with such censorship being treated as similar to pornography - they have to be stocked in a separate part of the store where children won't see them, and they can't be advertised at all. The reason most large devs and publishers go along with this is because Germany is Europe's biggest market for video games, although you'd have to ask OBD to look at their sales data to see if that matches up with them.

As has been said throughout this thread, "History is History". They should be on by default with a switch to turn them off for Germany and thin skinned types who can't accept reality... Christianity uses the cross as its symbol. Why? Because Christ was crucified on one. Have all images of Christ nailed to the cross been removed from public view because them may be offensive? No... And uncounted millions more people have been killed in the name of Christ than the Nazis could even begin to conceive...

Rick W

i am sure swastika won't be in game as much i am sure there will be patch for it. btw, confederate flag as we know it was never used during the civil war period.

We do historical flight sims where possible so they will be in there - as they would have been otherwise we may has well make a flyable 'minecraft'. However of course we'll think of customers in Germany likely have options for that. We aren't there yet so lets just see?

I couldn't agree more!

There's no need to bring your deluded and entirely unhistorical bias against Christianity into the argument. It is completely off-topic as well. You just used the 'cross' analogy to bring in an opportunity to vent, didn't you? Same applies to anyone who agrees with you. Have some respect for those of us who are religious, please.