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#4319758 - 12/14/16 01:18 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Why does he even bother?
He's probably trying to get this thread locked as well as the last one. Or he's looking to get his new account banned so he can somehow justify his belief that the moderators here are anti DCS.
Ignore him and he will fade away. Let him go, let him sit in his isolation and hopefully he will see beyond his own hurt feelings.


DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4319760 - 12/14/16 01:22 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
SimHQ must really, really, REALLY be a fun place to be in!


it is smile

#4319863 - 12/14/16 07:58 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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OOOoooo!! Cleanup happened as I was taking a nap! Nice! thumbsup


- Ice
#4320166 - 12/15/16 08:27 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
Originally Posted By: David_OC
Maybe a little bit of both scripted/dynamic to make it easier for mission builders would be good.

Originally Posted By: - Ice
ED is already doing this (dammit, are you even reading my posts? or just trying to find what bits you can nitpick?), but if this was the correct or better way, why is there an overwhelming cry for a DC? Because scripted misisons are repetitive and missions done by the mission generator fail to "generate" the same immersion as a DC engine could.


I will post this here again Ice as you are not following

Kevin Klemmick – F4 Lead Software Engineer

Many recent simulators are released without even trying to code a Dynamic Campaign engine. Why do you think today’s sim developers are so scared of what you guys were able to create more than a decade ago?

Well, it’s just really hard to do. Looking back on it, I think the only reason we took on what we did is because we were too inexperienced to know better. Knowing what I do now, even given my experience on Falcon, the cost to develop such an engine would be substantial. Since flight sims don’t bring in that kind of revenue companies look at it from a cost to benefit standpoint and Dynamic Campaigns score pretty low in that regard. There is also the argument that scripted missions are more interesting which has some merit. I think if I were to do it over I would do a mix of scripted/generated missions, so that the player still feels like they’re involved in the world, but there is also some variety thrown in to keep things interesting.


That is true. A whole bunch of products come and are being bought without a proper Dynamic Campaign Generator... Or even static campaigns, missions, skins, or any other products but the aircraft themselves and/or one map... which is quite apalling.

Do you know how old is this?

http://forum.jg1.org/forum/8-lowengrins-dynamic-campaign-generators-dcg-for-il-2-cfs2/

Do you know it was and still is completely free? 3rd party? Do you know that 1c/Maddox games included functional DCG in their product so many years ago? Complicated? Expensive? I don't think so.

Il-2 Sturmovik 1946 DCG supposedly took into account plane loses during missions which were combined with resupply rates in such a fashion that you had less certain types in subsequent missions, depending on their losses... And it was absolutely free. Do you really think it takes a lot of time or money to script that?

Last edited by Rabb; 12/15/16 08:33 PM.
#4320326 - 12/16/16 09:19 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Even if it wasn't a totally dynamic campaign... IIRC, Jane's F/A-18 had a somewhat scripted campaign system but that still took into account previous mission's ordnance expenditure and mission results. One of my biggest beef with the ED environment was that there was no way to have persistent damage; a bridge you took out on one mission will be repaired on the next mission unless you scripted in some sort of even that would destroy the bridge at the start of the next mission. Too much work for such a simple thing.


- Ice
#4320369 - 12/16/16 01:35 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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^That's Called Continuous Resource Management? isnt It?


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#4320903 - 12/18/16 08:59 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: Winfieldred
"SimHQ has an excellent moderation" Only if it suits their views here. I hear how free and open it is, this is for one side tho. They can cross a line way further than others and not be banned here.
Let me use a beloved line from Pro-ED group: "This is THEIR forum and they can do what they damn well please and alter their rules as they see fit." Suxx to be on the other side, huh?


May I reiterate here that this arse clown is not me......

No idea how and why we share the same kind of user name.....all of my posts prior have been in support of SimHQ, I happened upon this thread after many months of absence.




#4320922 - 12/18/16 12:09 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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No worries there, Winfield. It was apparent straight away who it was and it seems like the mods have managed to keep him out this time. biggrin


- Ice
#4321003 - 12/18/16 05:24 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted By: Winfield


May I reiterate here that this arse clown is not me......

No idea how and why we share the same kind of user name.....all of my posts prior have been in support of SimHQ, I happened upon this thread after many months of absence.


No worries, sir. It was very obvious that it was not you.

#4321215 - 12/19/16 09:40 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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LOL! Can we officially speak about multiple personality disorder? screwy

#4321295 - 12/19/16 02:36 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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I was going to, but then I had an argument with myself about it. I thought it was a good idea, but I thought it really wasn't a good idea. So I argued some more, at one point it got quite heated and a few blows were exchanged, but in the end I decided that I was right and I was wrong.



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#4324774 - 12/30/16 10:48 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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David_OC

Thank you for your kind reply - I am glad to read that my memory is not failing and what I remember from the early nineties is true:

"Falcon 3.0 was sold as being the first of a series of inter-linked military simulations that Spectrun Holobyte collectively called the "Electronic Battlefield". Two games released in this range were the 1993 flight simulators for the F/A-18 (Falcon 3.0: Hornet: Naval Strike Fighter) and the MiG-29 (MiG-29: Deadly Adversary of Falcon 3.0) that could be played as stand-alone games or integrated into "Electronic Battlefield" network games."

I take your point about the $$$, my being involved in application development largely by myself (I need help!). I know that in order to build large complex applications like the ones we are taling about, one needs big teams of talented programmers, designers and artists, all managed and co-ordinated competently - none of which comes cheap.

Obviously, in the early nineties, developers believed that there was a significant end-user market for these military simulations - maybe hoopla after Gulf War I, or maybe because it was obvious subject matter for a computer game.

In these days of "Angry Birds" and facebook farming (or whatever it was), then maybe that market just is not there - ie the hardcore guys like me (and a lot of those on this forum) that spend thousands of dollars on their rigs and peripheral equipment (Thrustmaster, TrackIR, Oculus Rift, UHD Monitors etc) just are not prepared to invest anywhere near the same in their software. Which is interesting, because in the business world, you spend next to nothing these days on hardware (even including subscriptions to AWS and Azure) compared to what you pay in licensing fees to software companies with compelling/critical applications - Oracle, Microsoft, Salesforce, VMWare etc.

So perhaps, instead of blaming ED, Esim Games, Bohemia Interactive et al, we should look at ourselves and ask why we do not pay materially more for their products - one good answer would be that they don't ask us to!

Look forward to the responses.

Kind regards to all

Durham

#4324793 - 12/31/16 01:56 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Durham]  
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Originally Posted By: Durham

So perhaps, instead of blaming ED, Esim Games, Bohemia Interactive et al, we should look at ourselves and ask why we do not pay materially more for their products - one good answer would be that they don't ask us to!



LoL!

Speaking of ED the answer to your comment/question is simple -> Because ED is incompetent!!

They can't even follow a proper development path which includes the ridiculous 1.5 and 2.0 (or is it 2.5?) versions developed "in tandem". They can't even add an aircraft, this case the F-5 without messing up the takeoff sequence of an another completely unrelated aircraft (Su-33) and again I could go on and on and on - you know like the Bunny from Duracell batteries!

So, ED can't even work properly on their product and you think they deserve MORE MONEY! Really??

I wonder how you would feel if someone or some company sold you a car will lots of problems and instead of someone supporting you by saying that the company should fix your car problems that someone would instead say that you should pay even MORE MONEY to this same company that sold you the car full of problems??

The problem is that many players here wouldn't accept that companies around him would screw them up but for some odd reason if this "screwing up" comes from ED then everything is OK. Perhaps it's because of this that ED does what it does!

Will all due respect, suggesting that an incompetent company like ED should even receive more money is IMO insulting and even "pornographic"! At least to me this is almost an insult.

#4324795 - 12/31/16 02:08 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Durham]  
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Originally Posted By: Durham
it was obvious subject matter for a computer game.

In these days of "Angry Birds" and facebook farming (or whatever it was), then maybe that market just is not there - ie the hardcore guys like me (and a lot of those on this forum) that spend thousands of dollars on their rigs and
So perhaps, instead of blaming ED, Esim Games, Bohemia Interactive et al, we should look at ourselves and ask why we do not pay materially more for their products - one good answer would be that they don't ask us to!


Durham


True. Market and sim complexity are nothing like they were, yet people still expect sims to be priced like games. Steel Beasts has a more realistic approach.

If people believe the product isn't worth it, don't buy it.

#4324799 - 12/31/16 02:16 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: ricnunes]  
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Originally Posted By: ricnunes

Will all due respect, suggesting that an incompetent company like ED should even receive more money is IMO insulting and even "pornographic"!


Ehh WTF? That's a new one exitstageleft

Nate

#4324831 - 12/31/16 10:29 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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ED being incompetent certainly isn't something 'new'. They've being demonstrating how not to plan, develop, integrate and release for years now.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4324886 - 12/31/16 03:41 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
True. Market and sim complexity are nothing like they were, yet people still expect sims to be priced like games. Steel Beasts has a more realistic approach.


Oh really??

Steel Beasts Pro PE v4.0 costs $125 USD and includes how many playable (and detailed) vehicles??
Try having the same number of playable (and detailed) aircraft in DCS and then tell me that you'll pay less than $125 USD (again for the same number of playable aircraft in DCS versus the same number of playable tanks in SB), right rolleyes

On top of that, every Steel Beasts copy must include a piece of hardware (a CodeMeter stick) which has to be shipped to every customer and that my friend will inevitably increase (and considerably!) the cost of each SB copy.
Note that I'm NOT saying that SB decision of including a CodeMeter stick is a bad one, by the contrary but it's a decision that will inevitably increase the product/copy cost, a cost which in the case of SB is not only about the software itself.

Besides and despite I never played SB, it seems that this sim (SB) isn't the buggy mess that DCS currently is (and always was).


Another funny thing that I see posted here is how simulations should be more expensive today than in the 1990's because they are more "complex". Sure that they are more complex but have you forgotten that simulations in the 1990's also had increased costs compared to today's simulations? I'm talking about CD's or DVD's which had to be purchased by the software developer or publisher by thousands since each copy was equal to at least one disc (CD or DVD) and each copy also included a printed manual often with several dozens or even hundreds of pages (again for EACH COPY) and then a shinny new and colored printed box to include each set of discs and manual (again for EACH COPY) - So this aren't extra cost?? Only extra software complexity adds costs??
Again discs, manuals and boxes added costs to those 1990's simulations a cost that simply doesn't exist with today's simulations so I would say that this cost (discs, manuals and boxes) likely offsets the extra cost that the "extra software complexity" that give to modern simulations!

But yeah, keep ignoring these facts...

#4324907 - 12/31/16 04:56 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Durham]  
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Originally Posted By: Durham
So perhaps, instead of blaming ED, Esim Games, Bohemia Interactive et al, we should look at ourselves and ask why we do not pay materially more for their products - one good answer would be that they don't ask us to!

I will agree and disagree with you on this one. I agree in the sense that I have no objections paying more for good sims. Take XP10/XP11 for example. $60 but with a demo available and knowing the history of XP (XP9/XP10), the end-customer can get a solid feel of what he'll be getting in XP11 for $60. BMS have been doing their work for free and a **LOT** of people have been asking how they can donate as way of thanks (they ask that you donate to a charity of your choice) but personally, I've been "paying it forward" and been gifting copies of Falcon 4.0 and TacView as my "payment" for the BMS dev's work. eSim games with Steel Beasts is another example -- the gameplay is solid, the community loves it, and a year or so ago (not sure if they're still doing it now), you could ask for a "temp key" from Ssnake and that allows you to experience the FULL GAME for a limited time... again, like some sort of demo. After that, you can decide if it's worth the $125/$40 they're asking.

I disagree with you that ED needs more money to make things better. Sure, they can use the money, but their track record works against them in this regard. If you're willing to donate your hard-earned cash and are willing to wait years and suffer through the "everything is subject to change" mantra they spout, then.... well, it's your money and you can do with it as you please.

Personally, I had no hesitation buying the TM Warthog because of the good reviews it got and my HOTAS is still working strong even after 5+ years of constant use. I will NOT pay the same money for a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro or a Saitek X-52 Pro. Bottom line is what am I getting for my money and is it worth it? Not whether or not the company could use more of my hard-earned cash... make the product WORTH my hard-earned cash and I'll part with it willingly and happily.


- Ice
#4324910 - 12/31/16 05:03 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Simdog424]  
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Steel Beasts has a more realistic approach.

This is so true!! How many tanks does SB have? How many maps? How big are the maps? All of that at £125 or £40/year. If you buy the dongle, you can re-sell it at $70-100 and it holds it's value really well. I've personally bought a dongle to try out SB, then sold it forward for the same price I paid for it after a few months!

Now compare this to ED module pricing... $60 for the Viggen, $50 for the Spit, $60 for the F-5E.... that alone is more than $125 and only on one map. SB has a realistic approach. ED doesn't. You can compare the two, but ED will come out as a clear fail.


Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
If people believe the product isn't worth it, don't buy it.

Indeed!! Now I wonder why ED keeps having a sale week-after-week-after-week??


Originally Posted By: Simdog424
Steal beasts is great but need to move to DX11 next which will be big move. Military contracts is their main bread and butter still.

Hello David! Now why does SB **NEED** to move to DX11? Is there anything in the simulation that suffers from NOT being in DX11, aside from graphics?


Originally Posted By: Simdog424
No need to talk different levels? The levels now in all the top flight sims developers are amazing! DCS flight models and systems are the best ive seen out of all the sims, yes other things need fixing but still the development cost would be huge!

And why should the end-customer be concerned about development costs?

Last edited by - Ice; 12/31/16 05:11 PM. Reason: Tackled the comparison to Steel Beasts...

- Ice
#4324929 - 12/31/16 06:06 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice

Personally, I had no hesitation buying the TM Warthog because of the good reviews it got and my HOTAS is still working strong even after 5+ years of constant use. I will NOT pay the same money for a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro or a Saitek X-52 Pro. Bottom line is what am I getting for my money and is it worth it? Not whether or not the company could use more of my hard-earned cash... make the product WORTH my hard-earned cash and I'll part with it willingly and happily.


This is an another argument that I have some very hard time to understand or resuming "buying it".

Why on Earth would be "fair" for a simulation (a single piece of software) to cost the same or similar as a HOTAS??
Really, lets think for a minute about the development and production costs which obviously affects the cost per unit of each of these products:

Lets start with a HOTAS controller (doesn't matter the brand and/or model). For this kind of product you also need design phase or resuming to develop them. You have to design/develop the ergonomics, the buttons/triggers/etc..., you have to develop Integrated/Electronic Circuits, the wiring, the pots, etc...

Also, when we speak about HOTAS controllers we are not only talking about "hardware" but we are also talking about software. For example and for these types of controllers, 2 (two) different types of software must be developed:
1- A driver compatible with several and different Operating Systems.
2- A software package that allows the user to configure different stuff suck as game profiles, axis configurations, etc...

Then after the design phase you have to test these controllers and these controllers have to pass several control quality control checks - something that I'm pretty sure that simulation like DCS aren't subjected to! - and only after this may production start.

Finally when production is ready to start (after quality control checks) you have to purchase lots of raw materials, ranging from plastic, rubber, different types of metals, etc... to manufacture EACH and every HOTAS controller and this not to mention many other expenses such as developing, building/buying all the tooling needed to manufacture these HOTAS controllers.



On the other hand, even the most complex PC flight simulation such as DCS is in the end a "single" piece of software which can be extended by other smaller pieces of software (addons and/or patches) but independently of how complex this software may be, it's still software. For example there's no raw materials evolved in the manufacturing on each piece of this bigger software.

Besides this, there doesn't seem to be much of a quality control evolved in the development of such software or at least an "external" quality control - At least DCS would NEVER PASS a quality control check which is demanded for a HOTAS controller!! - and in case there's any sort of quality control for these products (software simulations) this is done internally by the development company/team which sets their own "quality parameters" - Perhaps with the exception of some simulations that for example are FAA approved such as X-Plane (and/or FSX/P3D if I'm not mistaken).

An another not so mentioned point is that despite nowadays games and as such simulations are much more complex than before (no argument there), the development tools are also much more advanced and such developing for newer (and thus more complex) games/simulations is in many cases easier than it was in the past (again despite the complexity of newer games/sims).

So and even when the developer thinks that their products are good to release (and sale) and considering the point that I mentioned earlier that nowadays sales are done digitally (and there's no physical media such as a DVD evolved), this means that the cost of "manufacturing" each different copy is basically ZERO (0)!

Basically for a software package such as a simulation most of its costs come from development and manufacturing costs are basically non-existent for each software/simulator copy while with a HOTAS controller you not only have costs (and lots of it) during development but you also have lots of costs during the manufacturing of EACH and SINGLE HOTAS "copy" or controller - Oh, and I forgot that with HOTAS there are other costs associated such as boxing and shipping, costs that for example DCS doesn't have!


Finally, I believe that looking at the points above it's not that hard to understand why a HOTAS is (and IMO will always be) more expensive than complex simulation such as DCS!
IMO the current price for simulations (ranging between $60-$100 USD) is more than fine.
If this amount of money isn't "enough" for simulator developers maybe and I repeat MAYBE, the problem is on the developer side.
MAYBE the developer needs to get their act together than plan their products development better.
MAYBE they should simplify overly complex parts of the code that no-one or no player won't probably be aware of and center around the issues that can bring new players. You now things that improve immersion and GAMEPLAY, things like dynamic campaigns, perhaps?? Of the mix between dynamic campaigns and multiplayer, perhaps??
Or MAYBE not releasing such a buggy product which in the process will only and inevitably keep away current customers and potential future customers?
Well, IMO continuing with this bad product policy or releasing Alphas, Betas, buggy and lame "final versions" and on top of this INCREASING the COST even more won't give a new a life to simulation but by the contrary, it will KILL them altogether!

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