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#4321848 - 12/20/16 08:10 PM Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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my brief experience with it did not meet with the desired results - to check my skill set, I tried it with the Bf109 (with its charming white squares where serial number or such should be) and did indeed became airborne.

alas, not with the Spitfire.

this discrepancy in outcomes - is this why Germany won WWII ?

"to the vanquished, the crater"

thanks in advance for your input.

smile

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#4321852 - 12/20/16 08:26 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
my brief experience with it did not meet with the desired results - to check my skill set, I tried it with the Bf109 (with its charming white squares where serial number or such should be) and did indeed became airborne.

alas, not with the Spitfire.

this discrepancy in outcomes - is this why Germany won WWII ?

"to the vanquished, the crater"

thanks in advance for your input.

smile


Took me a couple of tries if I followed the right procedure.

1) Takeoff Assist and Auto Rudder OFF in options
2) Rudder trim fully right
3) Elevator trim nose down 1 deg
4) Stick fully aft
5) Very slow and smooth throttle increase, compensate for engine torque with rudder

At some point, I realized that I had to use my rudder by anticipating the engine torque rather than reacting to it.

It's all explained in my guide. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-uSpZROuEd3Y1dhWFhKSVpPbms

Last edited by Chuck_Owl; 12/20/16 08:26 PM.
#4321856 - 12/20/16 08:36 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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the white squares are an end user problem, I've uninstalled and re-installed multiple times and do no have any white squares, they only appear after installing old 3rd party skins that use and call for a empty tga


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#4321863 - 12/20/16 08:54 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Chuck_Owl]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
the white squares are an end user problem, I've uninstalled and re-installed multiple times and do no have any white squares, they only appear after installing old 3rd party skins that use and call for a empty tga

aha-aha-umh - and the fix for this is ?



Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl


Took me a couple of tries if I followed the right procedure.

1) Takeoff Assist and Auto Rudder OFF in options
2) Rudder trim fully right
3) Elevator trim nose down 1 deg
4) Stick fully aft
5) Very slow and smooth throttle increase, compensate for engine torque with rudder

At some point, I realized that I had to use my rudder by anticipating the engine torque rather than reacting to it.

It's all explained in my guide. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-uSpZROuEd3Y1dhWFhKSVpPbms


I'll give it a try

to me, it looks like rudder authority after the first input is zero, it gets stuck in the direction you set and the aircraft cant recover, the Spitfire take off should be very much like the P-51.

#4321864 - 12/20/16 08:56 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss


to me, it looks like rudder authority after the first input is zero, it gets stuck in the direction you set and the aircraft cant recover, the Spitfire take off should be very much like the P-51.



I haven't experienced such a lack of rudder authority. Rudder authority increases with airspeed, as expected.

Last edited by Chuck_Owl; 12/20/16 08:56 PM.
#4321865 - 12/20/16 09:02 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Nate Offline
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You really have to dance on the pedals - watch the control indicator in this vid.



Nate

#4321866 - 12/20/16 09:04 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
Originally Posted By: SkateZilla
the white squares are an end user problem, I've uninstalled and re-installed multiple times and do no have any white squares, they only appear after installing old 3rd party skins that use and call for a empty tga

aha-aha-umh - and the fix for this is ?



Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl


Took me a couple of tries if I followed the right procedure.

1) Takeoff Assist and Auto Rudder OFF in options
2) Rudder trim fully right
3) Elevator trim nose down 1 deg
4) Stick fully aft
5) Very slow and smooth throttle increase, compensate for engine torque with rudder

At some point, I realized that I had to use my rudder by anticipating the engine torque rather than reacting to it.

It's all explained in my guide. https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-uSpZROuEd3Y1dhWFhKSVpPbms


I'll give it a try

to me, it looks like rudder authority after the first input is zero, it gets stuck in the direction you set and the aircraft cant recover, the Spitfire take off should be very much like the P-51.



Remove any Mods that use Empty.tga calls, and replace the empty.tga w/ an empty.dds and change livery to look for empty.dds


The Spitfire IX has a Narrow main Gear, P-51D has a Wide Main Gear,

This Completely changes take off, landing, and taxi maneuvering greatly.

But that alone, they should have no where near the same ground handling at all.

Last edited by SkateZilla; 12/20/16 09:09 PM.

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#4321868 - 12/20/16 09:06 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Tom_Weiss Offline
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you gave me a good idea by suggesting this

Quote:

1) Takeoff Assist and Auto Rudder OFF in options
2) Rudder trim fully right
3) Elevator trim nose down 1 deg
4) Stick fully aft
5) Very slow and smooth throttle increase, compensate for engine torque with rudder

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4321848#ixzz4TPl0bCqO
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that is an input problem

what I did:

was disable force feedback in the options

which messes with most joystick/throttle (I have an X-55) and took off smoothly as I am used to, easier than in a P-51D, as I do very often in the A2A versions.

thanks/

#4321869 - 12/20/16 09:17 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Nate]  
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Originally Posted By: Nate
You really have to dance on the pedals - watch the control indicator in this vid.



Nate


The More Power/Boost you add at lower speeds, the greater the prop wash over the control surfaces the greater the rudder authority/effectiveness.


Last edited by SkateZilla; 12/20/16 09:17 PM.

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#4322156 - 12/21/16 06:11 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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I am sure as time goes by it will get better, but right now, with 0% assist, it is not so much that it is very difficult to take off, it is completely unpleasant experience.

the Spitfire was a notoriously pleasant to fly fighter, this one isn't.

#4322174 - 12/21/16 07:17 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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https://youtu.be/0bMrhLG3tM4

He says in spite of the narrow undercarriage, its quite easy to take off and land in. And I couldn't help but notice that his legs seemed to be hardly moving.


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#4322176 - 12/21/16 07:35 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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I posted the same video earlier today smile

I've mostly flown WWII fighters these past few years in FSX and P3D - the Spitfire included (although it was a MkI/II) and there is not much to say about how they take off, the DCS Spitfire at this stage with 0 assist wants to crash all the time, it is quite frustrating.

#4322194 - 12/21/16 09:05 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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"Dance with pedals"


#4322203 - 12/21/16 09:36 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Tom, Mustang is the only warbird in DCS, which has a semi-locked, steerable tailwheel. Conversely, Spit is the only warbird which has only a free swiveling tailwheel. They're on opposite sides of the spectrum as far as controllability on the ground is concerned (within taildraggers category, of course). We might argue that response to rudder input in DCS rendition of Spit is somewhat off at the moment (that's my impression as well, at least I can make it manageable with 25% controller curve setting), but they should be nowhere near being close to each other during takeoffs and landings.

The only thing I like about responsive rudder in this plane is the fact that I don't have to use throttle and brakes all that often during taxiing, compared to 109, which has no useful rudder authority whatsoever until You're well in the takeoff roll.

#4322205 - 12/21/16 09:48 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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there is no need for all this work - look at any video, the TO is a simple quick process.

any input makes it unstable and has to be countered.

the Spitfire is a stable platform, I've been flying WWII fighters daily since 2008 , like the Spitfire I/II, P-47D, P-40B/C , Corsair, P-51D, P-51H and T-6 and I never encountered this kind of vicious behavior.

the DCS P-51D is very easy to TO and the Bf109 while a handful on the ground is not that bad either.


#4322223 - 12/21/16 10:44 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Pooch]  
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Originally Posted By: Pooch
https://youtu.be/0bMrhLG3tM4

He says in spite of the narrow undercarriage, its quite easy to take off and land in. And I couldn't help but notice that his legs seemed to be hardly moving.


Looks like he's pumping Max rudder deflection a few times on Take off between 3:14 and 3:24 IMO - Similarly when taxiing his rudder is quite active.

Edit:- Not quite a graceful as Sokol1 though biggrin

Nate

#4322247 - 12/22/16 12:02 AM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: SkateZilla]  
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Originally Posted By: SkateZilla

The Spitfire IX has a Narrow main Gear, P-51D has a Wide Main Gear,

This Completely changes take off, landing, and taxi maneuvering greatly.

But that alone, they should have no where near the same ground handling at all.


Totally agree. The 51 I can take off without issue; in fact, it's the easiest WWII bird in DCS to get airborne. I struggled the longest with the 109 (t/o and landings), and now I feel that I will struggle even longer with the Spit. But man, the 3D modeling, texturing, and overall feel of that baby are top-notch! Thanks ED.



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#4322257 - 12/22/16 12:23 AM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: RainMan]  
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Originally Posted By: RainMan


Totally agree. The 51 I can take off without issue; in fact, it's the easiest WWII bird in DCS to get airborne. I struggled the longest with the 109 (t/o and landings), and now I feel that I will struggle even longer with the Spit. But man, the 3D modeling, texturing, and overall feel of that baby are top-notch! Thanks ED.


lol , your post just reminded me I have a truckload of skin requests to attend to - and no time to lose. smile

#4322289 - 12/22/16 02:46 AM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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I just reinstalled CLOD. Now I want the Spit 9, problems or not. What a magnificent airplane the Supermarine Spitfire was. And still is.


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#4322403 - 12/22/16 03:26 PM Re: Spitfire take off does not necessarily end as expected, a Q [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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After two days taxi and take-off with Mk.IX became more easy than with CloD spit - what is hampered with bad ground handling issues.

The thing is that initially you tend to accelerate more than need in taxi, the perception of speed inside cockpit is not good, look from outside and will see how fast you are relatively to inside perception.

The rule is, open throttle do 1.2000/1.3000 RMP only and you will taxi basically with rudder, using brakes only in 90+ degrees turns.

Take-off is trim 0 or -1 (varies depends your stick), some rudder trim right (the full recipe give me a crab flight after take-off, so use less), hold stick right and neutral in pitch and accelerate progressively, don't go above 3000 RPM, meanwhile "dance with pedals". wink

Well, landing still a festival of "donuts". hahaha


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