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#4320217 - 12/15/16 10:37 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Force10]  
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brownba Offline
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Originally Posted By: Force10
Yes...the attitude of the DCS section here has evolved over the last few years...but that's a reflection of how ED's business practice has changed with releasing unfinished work and it staying that way for years...among other things.

The flight sim community has been a hotbed of debates, arguments etc...since there have been flight sims. Just because developers now have their own forums and can sanitize them at will...doesn't mean the independent forums have to follow suit.


ED is just fine, however this forum would be better with an unbiased moderator.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4320219 - 12/15/16 10:45 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: brownba]  
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Originally Posted By: brownba
Originally Posted By: Force10
Yes...the attitude of the DCS section here has evolved over the last few years...but that's a reflection of how ED's business practice has changed with releasing unfinished work and it staying that way for years...among other things.

The flight sim community has been a hotbed of debates, arguments etc...since there have been flight sims. Just because developers now have their own forums and can sanitize them at will...doesn't mean the independent forums have to follow suit.


ED is just fine, however this forum would be better with an unbiased moderator.


You mean one that hides negative criticism and bans folks for being unhappy? Not sure that's the definition of being unbiased.


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#4320226 - 12/15/16 10:57 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
We're here discussing the DCS product and the company that provides it. You seem more intent about discussing the community that play DCS. In my opinion that's not what the forum or objective of these threads are for otherwise we'd see threads with someone's username as part of the title.


Speaking for myself as a content creator, I can't say I enjoy reading these boards anymore. Discussing ED's business practices is pretty much the only single topic of conversation around here. It gets old really fast once you've read the very same rants over and over again... in multiple threads... by the same users. This place has been stuck in an endless "while loop" of victimization for months now, where people end up making everything personal for whatever reason.

What is progressively (but surely) driving me away is the fact that some forum users just can't write without being needlessly condescending. In my opinion, this tone has become the norm. Mods let it happen for the sake of freedom of speech. I just find it mind-boggling and deplorable that such freedom is being used by many to settle personal grudges instead of trying to achieve anything meaningful with it.

Last edited by Chuck_Owl; 12/15/16 11:05 PM.
#4320227 - 12/15/16 11:11 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Chuck_Owl]  
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Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl

Speaking for myself as a content creator, I can't say I enjoy reading these boards anymore. Discussing ED's business practices is pretty much the only single topic of conversation around here. It gets old really fast once you've read the very same rants over and over again... in multiple threads... by the same users. This place has been stuck in an endless "while loop" of victimization for months now, where people end up making everything personal for whatever reason.

What is progressively (but surely) driving me away is the fact that some forum users just can't write without being needlessly condescending. In my opinion, this tone has become the norm. Mods let it happen for the sake of freedom of speech. I just find it deplorable that such freedom is being used by many to settle personal grudges instead of trying to achieve anything meaningful.


You're not wrong.

But it seems you want ED's business practices and treatment of their customers to not be able to be discussed...and that's your solution?

Not to sound like a broken record...but why is the same passionate flight sim crowd are able to get along so well here at the WOFF forum? Way more activity and active threads there and they are positive with not much negativity.

Honestly...every time this "SimHQ" is evil subject comes up and I mention the WOFF section for comparison...there is never an answer. That's because the answer is clear...ED's business practices and customer relations have set them up to be heavily criticized. The mood here at SimHQ's DCS section is completely ED's own creation with their practices.

Care to comment?


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#4320229 - 12/15/16 11:23 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Force10]  
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Originally Posted By: Force10

Honestly...every time this "SimHQ" is evil subject comes up and I mention the WOFF section for comparison...there is never an answer. That's because the answer is clear...ED's business practices and customer relations have set them up to be heavily criticized. The mood here at SimHQ's DCS section is completely ED's own creation with their practices.

Care to comment?


The WOFF section moderators probably don't have an axe to grind with the developers.

I'm sorry for having to be so frank, but the discussion culture instantly improved by a landslide during the time that CyBerkut moderated here. All he had to do was chime in at times and be proactive without taking sides. It made the world of a difference.

Last edited by Sobek; 12/15/16 11:24 PM.
#4320230 - 12/15/16 11:26 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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Force10 is a moderator - his role is to moderate topics started by members and allow them to develop in an orderly way, which is what he does, and very well.

disclosure: I don't take part in discussions about ED flight sims content as I have nothing to contribute - making skins does not mean that I buy or fly DCS products, I don't anymore. But I sometimes read the threads, and yes, they can be sort of repetitive.

that said, being repetitive, is not something that a moderator should stop, since that is censoring not moderating.

that that those who are linked to ED complain, is valid - from their point of view.

thankfully, we have a forum ( by coincidence run by some of those most concerned ) where those that object to this forum attitude can go and find different content from that found here : the official forum.

people who enjoy this forum, its forum moderation, itsthreads and the content, can come here.

personally, I believe SimHQ greatest asset is its moderation.

Force10 is such a good moderator that he even endures personal attacks without going ballistic.

#4320231 - 12/15/16 11:37 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Sobek]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek

The WOFF section moderators probably don't have an axe to grind with the developers.

I'm sorry for having to be so frank, but the discussion culture instantly improved by a landslide during the time that CyBerkut moderated here. All he had to do was chime in at times and be proactive without taking sides. It made the world of a difference.


Cyberkut is an excellent moderator...one of the best. He is a much better moderator than myself. But there was still the same amount of criticism of ED going on while he was on duty.

Your comment about the WOFF moderators just shows your biased opinion. It's impossible for you to admit that there is a flight sim developer that does a much better job at customer relations than ED and that the attitude here is a direct result of their own actions.

Noodle said it best in a response to you here (former longtime ED supporter)

Originally Posted By: Noodle

Honestly, this "cesspool" is of ED's own creation. I used to think it was the Russian culture that sought to oppress dissent and was hostile toward "dangerous" speech. But I've come to realize that the Russian devs are just fine. It's Wags and his merry gang of unpaid moderators who are afraid of new ideas and have destroyed the community. This "cesspool" of discontent exists because of them.

ED is a case study on how to epically fail at every aspect of public relations. They should literally be studied. Why they continue to employ a guy like Wags is a mystery to me. As the producer, he doesn't appear to know a good idea if it were to slap him in the face; as a moderstor and facilitator, he's appears vengeful and petty, and appears to use his position to persecute people who cross him; and as the face of ED, what's he done to foster the community recently? They should replace him immediately; the brand would be much better off with a fresh face and new ideas...a clean slate.

For the record, I thoroughly enjoy the fact that ED is butthurt that their icy grip of power doesn't extend here to SimHQ.




Pretty much spells it out...no?


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#4320232 - 12/15/16 11:39 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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Why, in every thread that in any way criticizes ED, do the usual 3 or 4 vocal minority turn up and start complaining about SimHQ, it's moderators and the community? This was a humorous thread poking fun at ED. Some folk have no sense of humour.
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#4320233 - 12/15/16 11:42 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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#4320234 - 12/15/16 11:51 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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+1 for Force 10 quoting noodle

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#4320237 - 12/16/16 12:03 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl
Discussing ED's business practices is pretty much the only single topic of conversation around here


I think that's probably because we hear more about ED's business practices than we do about the release and updates of modules that we've already paid for.....a few recent announcements off the top of my head;

  • DCS 2.5 delayed (again)
  • F18 delayed
  • Modules reprioritised (where 2.5 was the focus it is now the Spit and the Normandy map)
  • Threads deleted on ED message boards whereby community discussed issues that ED didn't want people to talk about
  • No longer able to gift serial codes (the EULA was changed and customers who had 'agreed' to the old one didn't even know about this)
  • MI-8 payware campaign
  • Mi-8 released (with obvious bugs - and how many years has this been in alpha/beta with next to no updates?)


I'd suggest there is more to talk about regarding ED's business practices than there are about actual content.

Back on-topic: "We welcome positive and negative discussion on the ED message boards"


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#4320243 - 12/16/16 12:37 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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this shocking video is, in my opinion, pursuant to the discussion, it reveals something I suspected for a long time:




#4320244 - 12/16/16 12:39 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Back on-topic: "We welcome positive and negative discussion on the ED message boards"


Fixed


There was only 16 squadrons of RAF fighters that used 100 octane during the BoB.
The Fw190A could not fly with the outer cannon removed.
There was no Fw190A-8s flying with the JGs in 1945.
#4320248 - 12/16/16 12:51 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Why, in every thread that in any way criticizes ED, do the usual 3 or 4 vocal minority turn up and start complaining about SimHQ, it's moderators and the community? This was a humorous thread poking fun at ED. Some folk have no sense of humour.
Back on topic
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lol...+1000

#4320274 - 12/16/16 03:03 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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Regarding my stint as a substitute moderator in here... my style is a little different than Force10's. "Better" is in the eye of the beholder, however. I managed to annoy more than one member, too... just different ones. wink

To expand on Force10's example of the WOFF sub-forum... I'll offer up the IL2:BoS sub-forum as another case study of sorts. It used to be very contentious in there. As of late, it has been much more serene. Something changed. It's still pretty much the same people reading it, etc., so that isn't it. What did change however, is the product, and (almost certainly more important)... the dev team's course. AFAIK, Jason took the project over and brought things more into line with what the community appears to desire. When the intended course of action was announced, many of the folks who historically had plenty of criticism before, welcomed the news. Some were of the "sounds good... I'll be watching" category, and some were of a more optimistic view.

Online discussion forums that are not controlled by developers / marketers are going to have criticisms leveled at products / developers / marketing when community members are dissatisfied. Dev teams and/or their marketing folks can choose to pay attention to that feedback, ignore it, or even attempt to suppress it.

There is an old business bromide that goes, "The customer is always right!". It's not actually true, of course, because some things are just not feasible. However, when a number of customers are raising the same red flags... a company fails to heed that at their own peril. Sometimes that means the software development choices need to be re-examined... other times it may simply be a matter of sharing a convincing explanation of why it needs to be the way it is. Chances are though, for that explanation to be convincing, it will need some back and forth dialog before more people are won over.

What rarely works well for companies, (or for politicians) is to denigrate, or even just merely ignore, the people who are leveling criticisms. PGI went that route for awhile with MechWarrior Online, but then they wised up and changed course, and apparently that has worked out much better for them. 1CGS, as mentioned above, appears to have altered course with IL2:Bo* to good effect, too. I'm sure there are all sorts of other examples out there.

E.D. has accomplished developing some impressive software. Yet it is still clear that they have some unhappy customers. If anybody thinks it is just 3 or 4 people hanging out at SimHQ's DCS sub-forum... I submit that there is some multiple of that who just aren't bothering to write their displeasure, or who aren't even members here, but that have the same concerns/complaints.

#4320279 - 12/16/16 03:10 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: CyBerkut]  
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Originally Posted By: CyBerkut
E.D. has accomplished developing some impressive software. Yet it is still clear that they have some unhappy customers. If anybody thinks it is just 3 or 4 people hanging out at SimHQ's DCS sub-forum... I submit that there is some multiple of that who just aren't bothering to write their displeasure, or who aren't even members here, but that have the same concerns/complaints.


Insightful and accurate.


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#4320315 - 12/16/16 06:26 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: KraziKanuK]  
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Originally Posted By: KraziKanuK
Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Back on-topic: "We welcome positive and negative discussion on the ED message boards"


Fixed


This thread is a sarcastic insight as to comments that you would not hear ED say.......

Another one: "We appreciate the members of other forums highlighting some areas that we could improve........." hahaha


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4320323 - 12/16/16 09:12 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: Johnny_Redd]  
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Originally Posted By: Sobek
Gladly. You already mentioned Troll, then there's Chris Frishmuth, Eric Pierce, i could go on but i'd have to look up the names.

You'd have to keep going. BeachAV8R left because of DCS sub-forum negativity? Really? Or was it something else? I don't know who Eric Pierce is. Still, two (or three) people don't seem like the "a lot of SimHQs most active long time supporters and content creators" you claim. At least not "a lot" compared to what the other "more reputable" sites have lost due to their "positivity."


Originally Posted By: Sobek
Please quit the strawman arguments. I do not nor have i ever argued that you should not criticize ED when they screw up. I simply raised a point of critique about the SimHQ DCS community. And you guys have nothing better to do than tell me that my critique of SimHQ is invalid because of how much ED sucks. Are you so stuck in your rut that that is the only argument that anybody can ever come up with on this board? How irrational is this?

The irony is almost too much at this point.

Please stop using words inappropriately. Look up "irony" and learn how to use it.

You may not have directly said that we should not criticize ED, but your defence of them (and saying SimHQ members should do self-reflection) is pretty much saying the same thing. Your first post in this thread alone is saying this.


Originally Posted By: Sobek
I can and frequently do because honestly, this place pisses me off. It didn't used to, in fact this was a place that provided well made content, good natured but critical discussion, all courtesy of its community, but not so any more. It's not true that nothing was lost.

Maybe it's best for you to stay away for longer then. Like I said before, nobody's forcing you to be here, or read this thread, or reply to it. If this forum is a place you no longer like being in, then don't be in it. Don't be forcing everyone else to make it the place you want it to be. We don't owe you anything.


Originally Posted By: Sobek
Originally Posted By: Force10
Has nothing to do with ED's flaws.

For the love of baby jesus, finally something that we agree on. But is that all that this forum is about? If yes, be done with it and admit it, at least then we know where we really stand.

Nice try in taking this out of context.


Originally Posted By: Sobek
I simply said that the current state that the DCS community here is in has driven away some long term supporters and also very active content creators, are you going to dispute that? Is pointing out the obvious doing harm to SimHQ? You yourself have repeatedly stated in what disarray the DCS forum is.

Interesting how you're NOT pointing out how ED forums is driving away long time supporters, actual people who work with military hardware, content creators, and even simple forum members! One-sided much?

The only reason the official ED forums are "cleaner" than the SimHQ forums is because they nuke that place every now and again whereas ideas are free and kept visible here. The fact that there's so much dirt and mud to be slung about is not SimHQ's fault, it's ED's own doing that gives us the dirt we use as "ammunition."


Originally Posted By: Sobek
I'm trying to start a discussion in how a thing like that could be avoided in the future, you know, help SimHQ make more money by becoming more attractive again, get more clicks and all. But yeah, screw me for having good intentions. You are beyond helping.

Pffft! Yeah. Maybe if you'd like to start some positive, productive threads with some purpose then, rather than just jumping into one and acting so self-righteous?


Originally Posted By: Sobek
The WOFF section moderators probably don't have an axe to grind with the developers.

I'm sorry for having to be so frank, but the discussion culture instantly improved by a landslide during the time that CyBerkut moderated here. All he had to do was chime in at times and be proactive without taking sides. It made the world of a difference.

I hope CyBerkut's reply here has opened your eyes to your delusion. Also, members and moderators won't really have an "axe to grind" with a developer that knows how to listen to it's customers. Like Steel Beasts.... one of it's customers recently came here and started a smear campaign which really didn't stick. Was it due to members and moderator bias? Or was it because of the good reputation earned and strong support shown by the developers?


Originally Posted By: brownba
ED is just fine, however this forum would be better with an unbiased moderator.

This forum would be better if people who decide to pick up the "torch" of being ED's spokespersons actually knew how to read and keep discussions; instead, they seem to specialize in baseless accusations. Remind me again how ED's moderation is unbiased? Good luck with that.


Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl
Speaking for myself as a content creator, I can't say I enjoy reading these boards anymore. Discussing ED's business practices is pretty much the only single topic of conversation around here. It gets old really fast once you've read the very same rants over and over again... in multiple threads... by the same users. This place has been stuck in an endless "while loop" of victimization for months now, where people end up making everything personal for whatever reason.

What is progressively (but surely) driving me away is the fact that some forum users just can't write without being needlessly condescending. In my opinion, this tone has become the norm. Mods let it happen for the sake of freedom of speech. I just find it mind-boggling and deplorable that such freedom is being used by many to settle personal grudges instead of trying to achieve anything meaningful with it.

It is unfortunate that you're here at this time during ED's "lifetime." I used to be a "content creator" and was an active member of the DCS community and I've even ran a good number of training sessions for DCS A-10C. I've taken a few pilots from "brand-spanking new" to "able to fight" in the Warthog. The community was very, very different then, but so was ED.

I would have to put the blame on ED's shoulders with regards to the change in tone. As has been pointed out multiple times, the level of scrutiny and criticisms levelled at ED will never last long over in the official forums, so these ideas and feelings have to find a place to be let out. SimHQ is that place. If and when ED gets their act together and proves us naysayers wrong, and SimHQ is still the negative place it is, then I will agree with you that something wrong has happened. I doubt it though; I fully expect the tone to change should the general atmosphere surrounding ED change.


Originally Posted By: Johnny_Redd
Why, in every thread that in any way criticizes ED, do the usual 3 or 4 vocal minority turn up and start complaining about simhq, it's moderators and the community?

I don't mind if someone makes a counter-point to the issues we raise regarding ED, making reasonable, educated guesses about why things are done the way they are. I find it pathetic that instead of doing so, they instead resort to talking about the forum, moderators, and the posters, not the topic or issues being discussed. Maybe it's because there's nothing else in their arsenal?



Now for my daily contribution to this thread:
"We have fired certain members of staff that have been identified as the source of our issues and problems. We hope you'll give us another chance and we'll do better this time."


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#4320329 - 12/16/16 10:11 AM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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#4320364 - 12/16/16 01:21 PM Re: Things You wouldn't Hear [Re: FartHog]  
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DCS Kickstarter
Wags July 2014 "In this July 2014 update, the primary news is in regards to the restructured backer rewards. After a careful review of the older system under RRG, we found it financially unattainable."
Wags October 2017 "the investment vs. generated revenue has been excellent for the World War II aircraft. In fact, the P-51D Mustang has twice the cost effectiveness of the A-10C Warthog."
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