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#4319347 - 12/12/16 09:46 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Ice,

So you think RAZBAM is making a very uneducated very risky guess in business, building up a new team to build two new aircraft over the next year or two.

Wow Ice.

That's one extremely risky business guess by RAZBAM then.


Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4319351 - 12/12/16 09:55 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
Ice,

So you think RAZBAM is making a very uneducated very risky guess in business, building up a new team to build two new aircraft over the next year or two.

Wow Ice.

That's one extremely risky business guess by RAZBAM then.


No. I am saying the sales figures could be 5 copies or 500 or 5,000 or 50,000. Without that data, how can you say "sales are good"? How can you tell it's not a total flop? How can you tell if they've broken even or not? The answer: You can't.

As for the "new team," what, you've never heard of projects being terminated due to the company going under? You've not heard of people being laid off without warning because their company was bankrupt? Those people did not have the company's financial data, so they could not tell whether the business was booming or at the brink of bankruptcy.


- Ice
#4319356 - 12/12/16 10:10 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice

No. I am saying the sales figures could be 5 copies or 500 or 5,000 or 50,000. Without that data, how can you say "sales are good"? How can you tell it's not a total flop? How can you tell if they've broken even or not? The answer: You can't.

As for the "new team," what, you've never heard of projects being terminated due to the company going under? You've not heard of people being laid off without warning because their company was bankrupt? Those people did not have the company's financial data, so they could not tell whether the business was booming or at the brink of bankruptcy.


There is always some risk and I agree Ice, I'm sure RAZBAM, Leatherneck, etc have done their homework here on the risk.

It's good to see 3rd parties such as RAZBAM and Leatherneck building up their teams to build aircraft at the DCS level. Now where is my F14 Leatherneck and Harrier RAZBAM, things are definitely looking up here to me. Must just be my optimistic ways then.

These are just discussions here to get ideas for good topics for a website. Like the history of F4 and ED
I will not be biased tho like you guys are with ED and F4. ED has a different history just like Falcon's history and how it became the legendary SimArt it is today. It's taken some time back in (2006) for BMS to get the FM flight model to what we have today. To me it was just a cRazy idea to even try and build a sim like F4, but like Kevin Klemmick said, they didn't know any better back then.

F4 Legacy goes back Ice to early 1980s with Gilman Louie and has been involved with the CIA in the past, does Matt know him lol.
Do all CIA guys like fight simming?

#4319358 - 12/12/16 10:31 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
There is always some risk and I agree Ice, I'm sure RAZBAM, Leatherneck, etc have done their homework here on the risk.

I'm sure Microprose did their homework too, and so did Hasbro. Where are they now? Their sales figures didn't add up, "sales were NOT good," and now they're gone. I would bet they were run better and had a bigger portfolio than ED did though!

Originally Posted By: David_OC
It's good to see 3rd parties such as RAZBAM and Leatherneck building up their teams to build aircraft at the DCS level. Now where is my F14 Leatherneck and Harrier RAZBAM, things are definitely looking up here to me. Must just be my optimistic ways then.

So are 3rd party devs flocking to FSX/P3D, and what was your opinion on 98% of them?

I'm sure LN and RAZBAM are working hard on your F-14 and Harrier. In fact, I just got a text message from both of them saying they just read your post and now they're quintupling their efforts! Yay!

On a more serious note, I'm glad to see RAZBAM following ED's example. They hire more people, but is it to push a product out faster? Nope!


- Ice
#4319359 - 12/12/16 10:34 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
I will not be biased tho like you guys are with ED and F4.

Look up the word "bias" and tell me what it means.

The rest of your post is hypocrisy. I think you may want to look that word up as well.


- Ice
#4319361 - 12/12/16 10:35 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
On a more serious note, I'm glad to see RAZBAM following ED's example. They hire more people, but is it to push a product out faster? Nope!


Hiring more people doesn't necessarily equate to an increase in development speed, and that's true in pretty much every field of software development.

Last edited by Chuck_Owl; 12/12/16 10:56 PM.
#4319365 - 12/12/16 10:50 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
On a more serious note, I'm glad to see RAZBAM following ED's example. They hire more people, but is it to push a product out faster? Nope!


These guys work in close knit teams Ice, this would make them more efficient working together building these extremely high tech aircraft for DCS.

The learning curve wound be large here if you tried to put these new coders in to say the Harrier team. You would perhaps even go backwards for quite some time because part of the team would be then retraining the others up on where they are at and what needs to be done and how it's done etc.

Originally Posted By: David_OC
There is always some risk and I agree Ice, I'm sure RAZBAM, Leatherneck, etc have done their homework here on the risk.

Originally Posted By: - Ice
I'm sure Microprose did their homework too, and so did Hasbro. Where are they now? Their sales figures didn't add up, "sales were NOT good," and now they're gone. I would bet they were run better and had a bigger portfolio than ED did though!


No Ice, again read things and try to keep up.

It seems like the first release of Falcon 4.0 was rushed to the market in order to sell during the Christmas holidays. Was the code mature enough for this initial release?

I’d agree that the product was shipped in a pretty buggy state, but I couldn’t honestly say the first release of Falcon 4.0 was rushed. It took about 5 years to build and the last 9 months we were working 12-16 hour days (They had a hotel booked across the street, so my wife ended up staying there so that we could even see each other). It was a huge challenge to just finishing the thing; this was an incredibly complex product that really wasn’t planned out or managed well at all. Because of the complexity and lack of central design it became really difficult to find and fix the many, many bugs in the program. In the end we could have taken another year and still had open bugs, but at eventually you’ve got to get it out there. MicroProse was bleeding money at the time and Falcon already had the stigma of vaporware, so at some point we had to determine that it was good enough and then work hard on patching the problems.

Kevin Klemmick – Lead Software Engineer



Today is a different world Ice for ED and 3rd parties now have how many aircraft on steam? If I bought everything from ED right at this moment on steam it would cost $804.76 USD

I would have spent over $500 with sales etc. I own just about every module, except for the C-101 Aviojet
and just got the DCS: Spitfire LF Mk. IX for $39

How much did F4 sell for when it released? How many aircraft modules and maps could you buy and add to it?

#4319369 - 12/12/16 11:29 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: Chuck_Owl
Hiring more people doesn't necessarily equate to an increase in development speed, and that's true in pretty much every field of software development.

Not necessarily, but depending on where they are in their development, it could.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
These guys work in close knit teams Ice, this would make them more efficient working together building these extremely high tech aircraft for DCS.

The learning curve wound be large here if you tried to put these new coders in to say the Harrier team. You would perhaps even go backwards for quite some time because part of the team would be then retraining the others up on where they are at and what needs to be done and how it's done etc.

I'm sure you're familiar with such work and how they work in teams, David. Where are the numbers for module sales again?


Originally Posted By: David_OC
No Ice, again read things and try to keep up.

Ouch! The irony is thick with this one!

Why do you insist on talking about the history of Falcon? What is your point here, aside from re-hashing statements that have been done to death? So what if Falcon relese was buggy? DCS has been in the market for at least 6 years now, and more if you count LOMAC and FC series.

Again, IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO SAID WHAT at some point in history.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
Today is a different world Ice for ED and 3rd parties and now have how many aircraft on steam? If I bought everything from ED right at this moment on steam it would cost $804.76 USD


Repeat after me --- Quantity has nothing to do with Quality.

Then again, I remember you're the guy who equated post count with thead relevancy. In that case, maybe you should keep quiet with your 194 posts and listen when someone with 12K+ posts is talking.



Originally Posted By: David_OC
I would have spent over $500 with sales etc. I own just about every module, except for the C-101 Aviojet
and just got the DCS: Spitfire LF Mk. IX for $39

How does that saying go again??? "A fool and his gold..."


Originally Posted By: David_OC
How much did F4 sell for when it released? How many aircraft modules and maps could you buy and add to it?

Bah! How many theatres does DCS have? It's also embarrassing when a paid team is out-performed by a work-on-free-time modders; when a paid product is out-performed by one that can be had for £FREE (or £7.99 if you don't have F4.0 yet).


- Ice
#4319374 - 12/12/16 11:46 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
Today is a different world Ice for ED and 3rd parties and now have how many aircraft on steam? If I bought everything from ED right at this moment on steam it would cost $804.76 USD


Originally Posted By: - Ice
Repeat after me --- Quantity has nothing to do with Quality.


A lot of simmers think there is a lot of Quality in these aircraft, yes the world, weapons and ballistics need to be better and will be. The modules are the best by a long way on the sim market and are worth every cent. If your not happy don't buy anything.


Originally Posted By: - Ice
Then again, I remember you're the guy who equated post count with thead relevancy. In that case, maybe you should keep quiet with your 194 posts and listen when someone with 12K+ posts is talking.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
I would have spent over $500 with sales etc. I own just about every module, except for the C-101 Aviojet
and just got the DCS: Spitfire LF Mk. IX for $39


Originally Posted By: - Ice
How does that saying go again??? "A fool and his gold..."


Again, If your not happy don't buy anything. To me these aircraft and the Quality are gold.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
How much did F4 sell for when it released? How many aircraft modules and maps could you buy and add to it?


Originally Posted By: - Ice
Bah! How many theatres does DCS have? It's also embarrassing when a paid team is out-performed by a work-on-free-time modders; when a paid product is out-performed by one that can be had for £FREE (or £7.99 if you don't have F4.0 yet).


I get enjoyment out of both sims, as I have said before Ice

I get just as much from F4 as I do DCS in different ways.

and Prepar3d, X-Plane.

DCS for me has the best realistic flight models out of all of the sims for planes and helicopters.
BMS has the best F16 flight model.
Majestic software has the best flight model for the Q400
PMDG has the best FM for the 737
A2A has the best piper comanche 250 FM
orbx do awesome work with vectors and textures etc.

F4 BMS has the best dynamic campaign.
DCS has immersive scripted missions with real voice overs.
etc etc.

#4319387 - 12/13/16 01:45 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
Originally Posted By: Paradaz
If so, is that pure guesswork or do you have information to back it up because it doesn't sound like you're just stating opinion there?....hence why I previously asked if you have insight into how many units the Mig 21 is selling/has sold. You're also insinuating the Viggen will be a big seller for many years to come. What is this based on and hence why I asked what research you have done to come to this conclusion.


Must not be worth Developing aircraft for ED then? Especially how you guys think and talk about how ED wont make it.
Crap sales for the M2000?
How about the Harrier when out?

Why not just stick to FSX if ED's going backwards?
Could be more money for them developing at the DCS level and have their aircraft in the ED shop for a long long time.
I'm very sure RAZBAM would rather have their aircraft in DCS so they can take them to this new level in the sim their aircraft deserve.

Then why would RAZBAM turnaround and add a new team then?

"Gents
Allow me to introduce you a new developer team at RAZBAM, these guys have 2 projects going on already , NOW no matter what you see here, these are in very EARLY stages, a LOT needs to be done and don´t expect absolutely anything until at least, final days of 2017 (yup, a year from now) for some solid news on these.
Both projects have zero (0) impact on current schedule so Harrier fans (and both Mirages as well) should not worry at all."


How many licenses/sales over the next say 5 years will be sold of just the Mirage 2000?
Not even counting sales already made.
How about 10 years and how many more aircraft will they have in ED's store by then on sale?
All the 3rd parties and ED are very passionate about flight simulation and want this to workout for all involved.

I don't care about the actual spot on figures here Paradaz, as long as sales are good and things are moving forward for all involved at DCS, and to me things are looking up.


So your claims about Leatherneck's revenue are completely unfounded - pure guesswork! Your reply above doesn't even mention them.......you've switched fire to Razbam now with a similar post regarding their sales figures of which you have equally no information on whatsoever.

There's having an opinion and there's discussing why you have that particular opinion but you're not providing any resemblance of reason or logic for anything you have posted. There doesn't seem to be any basis at all. Is it really just pessimism or blind hope? That's rhetorical by the way, I'm not interested in a hyperlink to Falcon 4 or something equally off-topic or a link to one of your previous posts in this very thread.

Originally Posted By: David_OC
There is always some risk and I agree Ice, I'm sure RAZBAM, Leatherneck, etc have done their homework here on the risk.


I would like to think all devs/projects take various risks into account however, I'd imagine it becomes very difficult when ED change direction, move the goalposts, break the supporting engine and incorporate multiple dev branches which multiply the required effort when it was never declared to be part of the intended schedule in the initial planning when the risks are first identified. I guess they'll have bigger risk buckets next time around and take into account the inefficient way ED go about their planning, bug-fixing and integration activities.



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#4319446 - 12/13/16 08:59 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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how true was this thread when it was 1st started Paradaz

#4319486 - 12/13/16 12:51 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
Originally Posted By: David_OC
Today is a different world Ice for ED and 3rd parties and now have how many aircraft on steam? If I bought everything from ED right at this moment on steam it would cost $804.76 USD


Originally Posted By: - Ice
Repeat after me --- Quantity has nothing to do with Quality.


A lot of simmers think there is a lot of Quality in these aircraft,

Sure, there's some quality in some aircraft; I wasn't implying all of them were 0% quality rubbish. Still, you've missed the point which is QUANTITY has nothing to do with QUALITY. You tried to point out how many DCS modules are for sale and evidenced it by "buying it all" would cost $800+. So sure, there are a lot of modules. But again, just because there are many does not bear any relation to quality.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
yes the world, weapons and ballistics need to be better and will be.

Until they're fixed, the do NOT count as fixed. "They will be better" is a useless statement if this only happens 5 years from now, and considering how long they've been broken, that's a very likely scenario. DCS may be the bees knees in 10-15 years' time and I may have to take back everything I said (happily, I would add!!), but that is the future. We are talking about the situation as it is today.


Originally Posted By: David_OC
The modules are the best by a long way on the sim market and are worth every cent.

On a value-per-dollar scale, I think DCS modules are appallingly expensive. BMS is £7.99, cheaper when on sale. XP10/XP11 costs $60, and you have the entire earth to fly in, with blade element theory FMs to boot! Compare that to $40-60 for one aircraft with one location to fly in, then another $50 for Nevada...


Originally Posted By: David_OC
Originally Posted By: - Ice
How does that saying go again??? "A fool and his gold..."


Again, If your not happy don't buy anything. To me these aircraft and the Quality are gold.

Indeed, I don't buy anything. I'd like to get value for my hard-earned cash. You see value in it, fine. Using that in a discussion without giving reasons? Fail.


- Ice
#4319496 - 12/13/16 01:21 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Winfield]  
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Originally Posted By: Winfield
how true was this thread when it was 1st started Paradaz


I did cherry pick some pages from it a while ago and looked back over the content...some interesting discussions! I don't think I was too far off the pace.

All in all, I wish it wasn't true and I very much hope that for the first time ever ED will actually show some evidence of improving their practices/process and turn everything around. Given that their priorities are now listed as being the Spit/Normandy just indicates they are trodding down the same old broken path though because I can't see how putting all available effort into 2.5 and getting the builds merged as the priority baseline isn't the best possible course of action in order to get the required stability and use that as a springboard to then concentrate on the modules and periphery. (i.e the dependencies).

The way they are going they will only have to revisit everything they are currently working on when 2.5 is eventually released. If they did the 2.5 work first this wouldn't be the case. I can see many a broken module, and many a broken campaign with the direction they are currently heading in. Frustrating times ahead.


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#4319708 - 12/14/16 11:18 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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Quote:
This forum should be called the Anti DCS / Pro F4 Fan Club only section. Warning any positive view of ED with be frowned upon and dealt with accordingly by forum moderators and pro F4 members.

Read more: http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4319446#ixzz4SoG0OlG1
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I run a pro-DCS website and I post DCS skins I make here without any problems, no one ever posted "stop promoting DCS here !"

this forum is probably the only place where people can post their negative point of view, for a positive point of view, there is the official forum.

SimHQ has an excellent moderation - far better than most forums, and this has been true ever since I've been here.

and I am a die hard P3D fan smile

#4319713 - 12/14/16 11:27 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Tom_Weiss]  
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Originally Posted By: Tom_Weiss
I run a pro-DCS website and I post DCS skins I make here without any problems, no one ever posted "stop promoting DCS here !"

this forum is probably the only place where people can post their negative point of view, for a positive point of view, there is the official forum.

SimHQ has an excellent moderation - far better than most forums, and this has been true ever since I've been here.

and I am a die hard P3D fan smile


He is confused. While I am "Anti-ED," I am not "Anti-DCS" at all and there **IS** a difference. The special snowflake just can't take the heat, that's all.


- Ice
#4319717 - 12/14/16 11:35 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Winfieldred]  
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Originally Posted By: Winfieldred
Do we really need to go down this immature IP blocking, account banning road do we? When you are way out of line and in the wrong here.

Hahahaha!! Really? Quite rich seeing as you've posted/spammed this very same content on TWO DCS threads, a Falcon 4.0 thread, an IL2:CoD thread, and an Air Combat Maneuvers & Tactics thread. Very mature!





Originally Posted By: Winfieldred
"SimHQ has an excellent moderation" Only if it suits their views here. I hear how free and open it is, this is for one side tho. They can cross a line way further than others and not be banned here.

Let me use a beloved line from Pro-ED group: "This is THEIR forum and they can do what they damn well please and alter their rules as they see fit." Suxx to be on the other side, huh?


- Ice
#4319720 - 12/14/16 11:40 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Winfieldred]  
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Originally Posted By: Winfieldred

"SimHQ has an excellent moderation" Only if it suits their views here. I hear how free and open it is, this is for one side tho. They can cross a line way further than others and not be banned here.


I see no biased moderation or moral lines crossed in this thread.

I see open expression of views on both sides. I also see monotony with people picking apart each others posts line-by-line - perhaps not realizing that neither side is going to shift their opinion?

If an account is banned for infractions - it is time to move on. Do not set-up a new account to continue the same theme or moderator criticism. if you are going to set-up a new account, do so to continue to enjoy the community with a fresh outlook.

#4319724 - 12/14/16 11:48 AM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: eonel]  
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Originally Posted By: eonel
I see no biased moderation or moral lines crossed in this thread.

Thank you!


Originally Posted By: eonel
I see open expression of views on both sides. I also see monotony with people picking apart each others posts line-by-line - perhaps not realizing that neither side is going to shift their opinion?

I don't know about others, but I do this to address each point individually. If the original poster changes their views, great! If not, that's fine too. At least the 3rd party reading the thread will see both views and can then decide for themselves which one holds more weight or is more relevant to their situation.


Originally Posted By: eonel
If an account is banned for infractions - it is time to move on. Do not set-up a new account to continue the same theme or moderator criticism. if you are going to set-up a new account, do so to continue to enjoy the community with a fresh outlook.

He's making a new account to circumvent his 2-year ban; apparently he also made an account in the past to circumvent the ban he had at that time. IIRC, he also made another account so that he could "agree" with the posts he makes on his "David_OC" account. He is now claiming he can make accounts here at will and not even IP-banning will work due to VPNs and what-not. He just can't leave it alone at all, despite the "obvious" bias against his side. biggrin SimHQ must really, really, REALLY be a fun place to be in!


- Ice
#4319745 - 12/14/16 12:32 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: Paradaz]  
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why does he even bother ?

Last edited by leaf_on_the_wind; 12/14/16 12:33 PM.


Ferengi Rule of acquisition #1 Once you have their money ... never give it back.

#4319747 - 12/14/16 12:51 PM Re: Campaign after Campaign - ED's new focus [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: leaf_on_the_wind
why does he even bother ?

Originally Posted By: - Ice
Somebody needs to re-evaluate their life priorities.

Originally Posted By: - Ice
SimHQ must really, really, REALLY be a fun place to be in!


reading


- Ice
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