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#4311480 - 11/12/16 04:33 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: - Ice]  
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Eddie Offline
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
We understand that.... but what are the chances that these new maps will still require MORE work once 2.5 comes out? They fix it now for 2.0/2.5 but as 2.5 matures, they'll most likely have to fix it again. So why do the same job twice? Why not blitz on 2.5, lock it down, and once things are set, **THEN** fix the new maps? We've been waiting on Nevada for a good 4+ years now, what's a few more months, eh?

Will you wax and buff and shine a side panel of your car knowing there's a scratch mark there that you'll have to fix first? No. You fix the scratch mark first, otherwise, you'll just be waxing and buffing the same area twice.


They'll almost certainly need work after 2.5 because 2.5 in my view is just a distraction from working on other theatres. I'm sure that waiting longer for Nevada is a small issue if you're not that interested in it, but for those of us who have been waiting for years for it (across many sims) and have no interest in the Caucasus, every day is a day too long, especially when we've paid for it already. DCS is never going to be "locked down", ever, so that argument is just a diversion from the issues at hand.

I view 2.5 as nothing more than a distraction from what should have been 2.0 all along that has allowed the timescales to become protracted, for whatever reason.


Eddie

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#4311485 - 11/12/16 04:43 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Have you anything to offer regarding the recent announcement of delays and Ghost's comment that the news is at worst neutral?


You're right, you don't contribute anything if you don't make ironic comments about "DCS fanbois" or rehash the same arguments that you used a 1000 times before. I mean, how can I top Battlerabbits and Farthogs quality posts?

Last edited by Remon; 11/12/16 04:44 PM.
#4311492 - 11/12/16 05:03 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Eddie]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Eddie
As someone who doesn't buy most aircraft or any single player content, I'm not a sufferer of that issue. The only ED modules I've ever bought are Ka-50, A-10C, CA, and Nevada (you can't call it the NTTR if most of the NTTR is low detail/absent). So for me Nevada is where that theory applies. And I'm also not a fan of the Caucasus region as a theatre of operations, so again the 2.5 merge isn't that big of a deal. I'd be happy if Caucasus was binned and we only had Nevada and SoH.


It looks like we have similar thoughts about the priorities should be, especially in view of the Spit and Normandy which are now the modules in focus......in the same respect we want different secondary priorities due to the content we own.

Nevada for me is a nice change from the age-old Caucasus however, for me it offers little beyond sightseeing in the Huey and Gazelle.

The multiple dev branches are a royal pain in the backside really, as it's currently forcing all the different content to be isolated into one of the branches with all the recent content being part of 2.x (with a map as you say that is still far from complete).....so this is why I'd rather this key area of development is completed, or at least made stable and released as it brings a lot of content together, will benefit far more people and will allow ED to build from the bottom up and not top-down.

@Remon You're still fantasising about the community......Have you anything to offer regarding the recent announcement of delays and Ghost's comment that the news is at worst neutral? Why don't you make your own thread if all you want to discuss is nothing related to the first post.



On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311497 - 11/12/16 05:07 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Eddie]  
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It's also a good decision; IMHO it looks like this: They realized that bringing Caucasus to T4 would take them a big enough chunk of time as is, that it makes more sense to rebuild the Caucasus map to take advantage of T4 features.

And, given that it is the free map that ships with DCS, there's nothing wrong with ED making sure that the free download puts the best foot forward as much as possible.

It's a situation that is similar to Nevada. You could have had Nevada a very long time ago - you probably remember the original beta release of that terrain. Instead it became the T4 pilot and as much as the delay may suck, you're ending up with a better product in the end, just IMHO.

Originally Posted By: Eddie
I view 2.5 as nothing more than a distraction from what should have been 2.0 all along that has allowed the timescales to become protracted, for whatever reason.

Last edited by GrayGhost; 11/12/16 05:10 PM.

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#4311499 - 11/12/16 05:13 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paradaz]  
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He has a pretty good point. If anyone here made that sort of post about you guys, I'm sure Force10 would already be cleaning the thread up or at least issuing verbal warnings. Why don't you tell them to do the same?

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
@Remon You're still fantasising about the community......Have you anything to offer regarding the recent announcement of delays and Ghost's comment that the news is at worst neutral? Why don't you make your own thread if all you want to discuss is nothing related to the first post.


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#4311501 - 11/12/16 05:17 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
It's also a good decision; IMHO it looks like this: They realized that bringing Caucasus to T4 would take them a big enough chunk of time as is


Ghost, ED clearly didn't realise and underestimated just how much time it would take otherwise 2.5 wouldn't be affected and it wouldn't be interfering with their priorities this late in the day.

It's an easy statement to make but I think it's a bit far-fetched to say that we'll end up with a better product in the end. You could turn around this time next year and say 2.5 has had another 2 years of delay....but not to worry because we'll all be getting something so much better.

There comes a point, some people have already reached it, others are not far from it (others just take whatever ED tell them!) whereby it's just not within acceptable timescales. In my opinion we're way passed it. It's absolutely true that the DCS World will probably never be 'complete' and may be under constant development....but the marker in the sand has to be placed somewhere. It seems that ED are happy to keep waving that stick around, and never place it down. They do realise that their customers have already paid for a lot of the content that is still up in the air? Yes, we know what an alpha/beta is together with 'early access' but it does seem like ED's definition of these terms are different from everyone else on Planet Earth.

Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
He has a pretty good point. If anyone here made that sort of post about you guys, I'm sure Force10 would already be cleaning the thread up or at least issuing verbal warnings. Why don't you tell them to do the same?


You've lost me....is that in reply to me or Remon? If you're referring to people going over the same thing 1000 times then I'll repeat what I've said before because this is mentioned a lot (probably a 1000 times!) by people who don't like negativity aimed at ED...

You created this thread, for many people on SimHQ or those that don't visit 'more reputable' sigh message boards this may have been the first official announcement that may have been seen about the delays to 2.5. Delays to 2.5 have not been officially mentioned before and we are discussing it in this thread FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Just because ED are incompetent at estimating and planning their work and resources doesn't mean that a previous discussion about delays to Edge 3 years ago or the delays to DCS 2.0 18 months ago suddenly make our concerns about a delayed 2.5 redundant. Is this how you really see things? Do you think that because we have discussed ED delays before for a different module/product that they can't/shouldn't be discussed ever again for a different product? Is double-jeapordy relevant in a forum?

What did you expect from this thread? Just because you think that a delay is a 'highlight' doesn't mean that everyone agrees with you. I consider it another royal cluster-f*** especially as ED were supposedly releasing this in 2014 under a different build number. If ED have let feature creep in (and we should therefore be over the moon that we get more functionality) then you're very much mistaken and it's yet another example of how ED's planning and integration activities are massively flawed.

As soon as ED can improve their management, planning, output and communication then we won't have to repeat negativity for a multitude of products. The problem is at the source, it's not something that has magically appeared within SimHQ. ED sorts the problems out, negativity stops....it really is that simple.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311518 - 11/12/16 05:57 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Paul Rix Offline
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Paradaz, there is little to comment on here that others haven't already said. I do find it very disappointing that at every opportunity a vocal few voice the same derisory opinion, and woe betide anyone that might disagree or say something positive. Everyone has a right to an opinion. I'm not saying you shouldn't feel the way you do, but when are you guys going to add something new to your argument, and do we have to go over it time and time again? A point can be made without being antagonistic or condescending, or pressing buttons to spin someone up into a frenzy.

ED isn't going to change how they do things while their business model is working for them. They have been around longer than most software companies in this field. Can you name one that has been around longer? So maybe, from a business point of view, they might actually know what they are doing. What happened to the companies that made the classic sims we all look back on so fondly. Digital Integration? DiD? Microprose? The original Janes team? Razorworks? Despite their outstanding work, they are ALL gone.
Eagle Dynamics business plan has been successful. We might not like it. We don't have to like it. We certainly don't have to financially support it. It seems to work though and nothing you, Ice or anyone else says here is going to change anything in that regard.

Now, am I an Eagle Dynamics "fanboi"? Well, I do think highly of the sim they created. I am constantly amazed at the detailed modeling (flight, systems and graphical). I do think they have done an outstanding job of integrating VR into the sim. While I don't fly fighters or helicopters for a living, I know enough about flying to be genuinely impressed with what we have running on our desktop PC's. Could it be better? Absolutely yes. There is a lot of room for improvement, but what we have is nothing to sneeze at. If that makes me a fanboi then so be it.

I fly DCS pretty much exclusively as a single player. For me, a dynamic campaign would be truly outstanding, but I realize that it isn't going to happen. It never will, and in all the years of playing ED sims (lets see.. 21 years now), there has never been a dynamic campaign in any of their products. Would I like to see other aircraft or theatres worked on at a faster pace? Yes, but I am realistic enough to know that circumstances can and do change priorities. I also know that I am not in possession of the whole picture. Only Eagle Dynamics has that. It is very easy to criticize looking in from the outside.

The most important thing is that they keep their lights on and the doors open. Otherwise we all get nothing. Zip, nada, zilch .... you get the drift.


Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people.
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#4311519 - 11/12/16 06:01 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Force10 Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrayGhost
He has a pretty good point. If anyone here made that sort of post about you guys, I'm sure Force10 would already be cleaning the thread up or at least issuing verbal warnings. Why don't you tell them to do the same?


They are trying to discuss the game. It doesn't take much to see which "side" of the debate tries to turn it into a discussion about individuals and make it personal. There are no rules in place here about how
often you can voice your disappointments about announcements.

More often then not...the thread will turn into a posting rights issue with SimHQ being blamed for
not censoring negative comments that others don't agree with.


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#4311522 - 11/12/16 06:18 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paul Rix]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
Paradaz, there is little to comment on here that others haven't already said.


A forum discussion could be never-ending.....what don't people understand about forums and voicing of opinions? Everyone has their own opinion, are people afraid to voice them. I really can't see how everything has been mentioned by someone else previously......unless of course everyone's opinion is the same! Eddie and I have exchanged views in this very thread....we largely agree however our opinions are still vastly different about how it could be improved and/or what priorities should be the focus.


Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
ED isn't going to change how they do things while their business model is working for them. They have been around longer than most software companies in this field. Can you name one that has been around longer? So maybe, from a business point of view, they might actually know what they are doing.


An interesting thought you have....if it wasn't for EDs military/government level products do you think they'd still be here now? I think they'd have gone under long ago, but this dicussion point could easily go off-topic because I think we would end up talking about how EDs desktop products don't have a proper road map and are totally influenced by their other contracts.

Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
I do think they have done an outstanding job of integrating VR into the sim. While I don't fly fighters or helicopters for a living, I know enough about flying to be genuinely impressed with what we have running on our desktop PC's. Could it be better? Absolutely yes. There is a lot of room for improvement, but what we have is nothing to sneeze at. If that makes me a fanboi then so be it.


Well that would also make me a fanboi too, because I'm just as impressed as you with all that. EDs quality has never been an issue, apart from some bugs which take far too long to fix and EDs attitude in some bugs being identified by their community it's the length of time it is taking and has taken when money has been exchanged for their products. There's 'early access' and then there's "you can have our product to test/play around with but we're not likely to finish it in the next 10 years or more" which crosses the boundary of how long becomes acceptable.

Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
I fly DCS pretty much exclusively as a single player. ............................... It is very easy to criticize looking in from the outside.


And that's the beauty of a forum, where many people (if not everyone) doesn't have the full story yet they are able to discuss their opinions and views. The very definition of forum states that the full facts may not be known....surely that in itself may explain why people who understand what a forum is for may be perplexed when told their 'opinion' is wrong, needs fixing or then gets insulted when talking about inanimate objects.

Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
The most important thing is that they keep their lights on and the doors open. Otherwise we all get nothing. Zip, nada, zilch .... you get the drift.


I get your drift, but I don't agree with it. I don't make a habit of being thankful for something if I think the provider is doing a bad job....just because they are the only people in town. I could argue that EDs current output gives us closer to nothing than the full product we are actually paying for in the grand scheme of things.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311525 - 11/12/16 06:31 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paul Rix]  
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Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
Paradaz, there is little to comment on here that others haven't already said. I do find it very disappointing that at every opportunity a vocal few voice the same derisory opinion, and woe betide anyone that might disagree or say something positive. Everyone has a right to an opinion. ............


This forum is not what your looking for with regard to DCS. It's not going to change. You can't change it. Accept it.

Nate

#4311532 - 11/12/16 07:30 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Nate]  
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Genbrien Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nate
Originally Posted By: Paul Rix
Paradaz, there is little to comment on here that others haven't already said. I do find it very disappointing that at every opportunity a vocal few voice the same derisory opinion, and woe betide anyone that might disagree or say something positive. Everyone has a right to an opinion. ............


This forum is not what your looking for with regard to DCS.

Nate

because ED's one is soooooo much better hahahahahaha
popcorn

Force10: I bet you 20$ that the F-18 will come with no carrier ops at first
MAYBE when they have the final release, but we still have a good 3-4 years ahead


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#4311533 - 11/12/16 07:35 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Nate]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nate

This forum is not what your looking for with regard to DCS. It's not going to change. You can't change it. Accept it.

Nate


But here is the ED mindset in full glory!

Why should you want to change the mindset of a forum? Why do you feel the need to change, alter or 'correct' the opinions of others?.......that sort of censorship is exactly the sort of things that happen on 'more reputable' sigh message boards This is the beauty of SimHQ......everyone can express their own view for others to agree/disagree and comment on. The very purpose of a forum.

Serious question Nate.....why are you here on SimHQ? (And I'm not for what minute suggesting you shouldn't be here). Given that you and other ED mods post almost exclusively in the DCS forums......are you here to partake in discussion, promote the products, provide assistance, change others opinions or monitor discussion so you can report back on the ridiculous rule 1.13 or whatever it is ito get people banned from the ED mesage boards in order to protect EDs reputation?

Do you see yourself as having a role to fulfill?


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311534 - 11/12/16 07:41 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Nate Offline
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I'm not a mod for ED - never have been, what are you talking about?

Nate

#4311535 - 11/12/16 07:45 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Paradaz Offline
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I didn't say you were......I said you and other ED mods. Care to answer the question?


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311536 - 11/12/16 07:47 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Nate Offline
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I think you are implying I represent ED in some fashion? I don't.

Nate

#4311537 - 11/12/16 07:47 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Genbrien]  
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Originally Posted By: Genbrien

Force10: I bet you 20$ that the F-18 will come with no carrier ops at first
MAYBE when they have the final release, but we still have a good 3-4 years ahead


Yeah...I would guess you're correct. Even though carrier ops is a big reason for me to purchase the
Hornet, it might be worthwhile to grab it and get familiar with it beforehand.


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#4311538 - 11/12/16 07:50 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Nate]  
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Paradaz Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nate
I think you are implying I represent ED in some fashion? I don't.

Nate


Second sidestep of the question. I won't pursue it......its off-topic anyway.


On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4311542 - 11/12/16 08:04 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
I won't pursue it......its off-topic anyway.


Yes...let's try to stay on topic please.


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#4311543 - 11/12/16 08:05 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Originally Posted By: Nate
I think you are implying I represent ED in some fashion? I don't.

Nate


Second sidestep of the question. I won't pursue it......its off-topic anyway.


Oh ok then...

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Originally Posted By: Nate

This forum is not what your looking for with regard to DCS. It's not going to change. You can't change it. Accept it.

Nate


But here is the ED mindset in full glory!


No Idea what this mean's I'm not from ED.

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Why should you want to change the mindset of a forum?
Please quote me where I said I wanted to change anything. Putting words in my mouth, so unlike you Para.

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Why do you feel the need to change, alter or 'correct' the opinions of others?
I don't - please quote me where I've done this.

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
This is the beauty of SimHQ......everyone can express their own view for others to agree/disagree and comment on. The very purpose of a forum.
OK



Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Serious question Nate.....why are you here on SimHQ?
I'm a member here just like you.

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
are you here to partake in discussion, promote the products, provide assistance, change others opinions or monitor discussion so you can report back on the ridiculous rule 1.13 or whatever it is ito get people banned from the ED mesage boards in order to protect EDs reputation?
Again - I don't represent ED in any shape or fashion, at all, in anyway shape or form. I'm a member here just like you. in your own words "......everyone can express their own view for others to agree/disagree and comment on" "his is the beauty of SimHQ"

Originally Posted By: Paradaz
Do you see yourself as having a role to fulfill?
Odd Question - do you see yourself as having a role to fulfil?

Nate

#4311546 - 11/12/16 08:28 PM Re: Weekend news announcement [Re: GrayGhost]  
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Enough of the "why are you here" arguments that's going to carry on for 10 pages
with the original topic being lost. If you want to counter someone else's opinion...
do it. We don't need to delve into the personal side of it.

Temp lock for a bit


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