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#4310741 - 11/10/16 10:35 AM Is forgiveness weakness  
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marko1231123 Offline
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Religon teaches most of us, if not all that forgiveness is very inportnant
Recently i was put in a situation that shall we say. got to me.
Not by any means a trivial mater, for example lets say a friend or a family member saying something in a drunken arguement.
That would not bother me i would just let it go. words really are cheap.
But as i get older i am finding more and more difficult to forgive.
i have not spoken to one of my brothers in seven years
Over a financial mater, He refused to help when i was in serious financial difficulties even though i had helped him numerous times Financially previously. This i found unforgivable as he more then had the means to help at the time.
My Wife and kids say i am stubborn and pig headed sometimes. this may well be true on occasion.
But to me forgiveness in certian situations is weakness.
I watch a lot of real life crimes shows and i am always taken aback when you see the parants or partner of a murder victim say they forgive there killer.

So what do you guys think is forgiveness the key to moving on or just weakness of will.

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#4310749 - 11/10/16 11:30 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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It is IMO, perhaps the most important thing to enable you to move on. I find the opposite, as I get older it's easier to forgive rather than waste heartbeats and brainbytes on something like that. As far as your crime show example, never. That is something entirely different.


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#4310754 - 11/10/16 11:56 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Forgive but learn.


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#4310777 - 11/10/16 01:17 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Sometimes, you forgive them not for them but for you. Not forgiving someone puts you in a really negative situation that only really poisons you; the other party does not know or does not care about doing wrong to you so you just sit there in your negativity getting drained of life and will. So forgive and let it go.

Do note that forgiveness does not mean forgetting. You may forgive your brother for what he has done, but do not forget the lesson you've learned, ie he's not good with money or with paying it back so do not lend him money again unless you're "lending" him the money as a handout and you don't care if you get paid or not.

Lastly, it takes strength to forgive. People today like to "one-up" the other side; "I won't rest until I get my revenge," that sort of thing. Personally, I find that very petty. I've got other things to do with my time, better things to do, things that will help me, make me grow, expand my boundaries. Being able to realize this and learning to "let go" of other people's wrongdoing, that to me takes strength.

So forgive, move on, and live. biggrin


- Ice
#4310800 - 11/10/16 02:28 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  

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Personally I don't understand this "forgiveness" thing. I can't even relate to the moving on problem.

For example, there was a time when I was really in a bad position and all my highschool friends instead of supporting me, made fun and relished my suffering. They would joke about my problems in facebook and would tell me to "go ahead, kill myself". It wasn't a trivial matter and some people here will remember my meltdown back then.

What I did was to get rid of them and started from scratch surrounding myself with people who really cared.

Now if you ask me, do I forgive them? I haven't thought about them. I just forgot about them and moved on. In fact right now I have to think for a few seconds just to recall their names (I have this talent for erasing people from my mind).

So, no desire to get even from my part. However, I have no intention of talking to them for the simple reason that I've decided they're people I don't want to be with. It's as simple as that. Now if someone is going to come up to me and say that I must "forgive them" by establishing contact with them, put them back in my life for spiritual enlightenment, I'd say #%&*$# off.

There are a lot of important things I have to do than putting people in my life who are there to harm me. My life has been very peaceful the past few years I ceased contact with them.

Society is odd. I knew that someone will say forgiveness is a sign of strength and it's the antithesis of other's experience that it's a sign of weakness. Both may be right depending on the person's background and the type of society you're living in.

Whatever your decision, my suggestion would be to never, ever do it to please other people. Don't forgive to please other people.

#4310812 - 11/10/16 03:01 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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I don't think I've ever really "forgiven" anyone for anything. I just forget about it, unless it's really bad in which case I can't...so I don't.

In other words, if the slight was small enough that I can forget about it, it is forgiven by default. If I can't forget it, it is never forgiven. That has happened rarely enough, though.

There are exceptions. For instance, if I had to push a button to prevent the people who I went to elementary school with from dying a horrible death...I wouldn't bother to push it. It's been over 30 years but I still remember how they treated me. I will literally not lift a finger to help them. Whatever excuses they might offer for their behavior at that time are irrelevant, the damage they caused has never healed.



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#4310823 - 11/10/16 03:37 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: Jedi Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Jedi Master
I don't think I've ever really "forgiven" anyone for anything. I just forget about it, unless it's really bad in which case I can't...so I don't.

The Jedi Master



+1. That's me. During my life I've met people I'd pretty much do anything for, people I just get along with, and people I would not cross the road to help. Fortunately the last group is pretty small.


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#4310824 - 11/10/16 03:37 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Sometimes, you forgive them not for them but for you. Not forgiving someone puts you in a really negative situation that only really poisons you; the other party does not know or does not care about doing wrong to you so you just sit there in your negativity getting drained of life and will. So forgive and let it go.

Do note that forgiveness does not mean forgetting. You may forgive your brother for what he has done, but do not forget the lesson you've learned, ie he's not good with money or with paying it back so do not lend him money again unless you're "lending" him the money as a handout and you don't care if you get paid or not.

Lastly, it takes strength to forgive. People today like to "one-up" the other side; "I won't rest until I get my revenge," that sort of thing. Personally, I find that very petty. I've got other things to do with my time, better things to do, things that will help me, make me grow, expand my boundaries. Being able to realize this and learning to "let go" of other people's wrongdoing, that to me takes strength.

So forgive, move on, and live. biggrin



After a couple of experiences where I learned what "real" forgiveness is about, I've arrived at what Ice has said so well here. You don't forgive to make the other person feel better. It's not the same as accepting an apology or just getting over something rather than dealing with it. At the level of real STRUGGLE, you do it, or try to do it, for yourself, not them. Because YOU deserve it.
It's still hard. It isn't just a decision to forgive, it isn't just knowing that you need to forgive or even saying the words. Internalizing it and accepting it is friggin HARD. There are some issues I want to forgive but still can't. I know it's right though. My weakness is my inability to completely go through with it. Strength would be the ability to accept it and move on and to be relieved.


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#4310830 - 11/10/16 04:00 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Originally Posted By: marko1231123
Religon teaches most of us, if not all that forgiveness is very inportnant
Recently i was put in a situation that shall we say. got to me.
Not by any means a trivial mater, for example lets say a friend or a family member saying something in a drunken arguement.
That would not bother me i would just let it go. words really are cheap.
But as i get older i am finding more and more difficult to forgive.
i have not spoken to one of my brothers in seven years
Over a financial mater, He refused to help when i was in serious financial difficulties even though i had helped him numerous times Financially previously. This i found unforgivable as he more then had the means to help at the time.
My Wife and kids say i am stubborn and pig headed sometimes. this may well be true on occasion.
But to me forgiveness in certian situations is weakness.
I watch a lot of real life crimes shows and i am always taken aback when you see the parants or partner of a murder victim say they forgive there killer.

So what do you guys think is forgiveness the key to moving on or just weakness of will.


Forgiveness has nothing - at all - to do with the person being forgiven. It has EVERYTHING to do with the person forgiving -- your -- well-being and happiness.

Forgiveness doesn't mean the forgiven escapes justice (that wouldn't be your situation anyway). It just means you, the forgiver, are happier because you put it behind you.

If you want to be happy, you'll forgive. It really is that simple.


"For I know the plans that I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans for welfare and not for calamity to give you a future and a hope." Jeremiah 29:11

Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Matthew 5:11

Indeed we call blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of the perseverance of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, because “the Lord is compassionate and merciful. James 5:11
#4310833 - 11/10/16 04:04 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Y'all need to learn the most powerful thing you can do... forgive someone.

Letting go not only shows mercy to those that may not deserve it, it also frees you from any hold that they may have over your heart/mind/soul.
If you forgive them, that wound can't be reopened.

This is a KEY ELEMENT of Christianity. (C'mon, if you know it Christ died that you could be forgiven)
But even if you don't believe in that, you should learn how to do this to keep from being bitter.

That will ruin your life.


~Bill

In my defense, I was left unsupervised...
#4310835 - 11/10/16 04:15 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Originally Posted By: marko1231123
But as i get older i am finding more and more difficult to forgive.


This is typical, don't worry about it too much - or more to the point, know that it's how it is, and that you need to reflect more on forgiving someone and letting go.

Quote:
i have not spoken to one of my brothers in seven years
Over a financial mater, He refused to help when i was in serious financial difficulties even though i had helped him numerous times Financially previously. This i found unforgivable as he more then had the means to help at the time.
My Wife and kids say i am stubborn and pig headed sometimes. this may well be true on occasion.
But to me forgiveness in certian situations is weakness.


I agree that in some situations it is a weakness, but not here.
Like others have said, forgive so that you can move on. It's your brother. Your expectations were violated and you were betrayed. It might help to find the reason (sometimes you might find out something surprising) - in the end, family is 'everything', and that expectation has been violated.

What it comes down to is that actions speak louder than words: You helped him, he refused to help you. Only got your side of the story to go on, so you may want to do some digging of your own to perhaps get a better picture.
But again, based on what you've said alone:

He's your brother, but for whatever reason he's unreliable or unwilling to help. Ok, learn from it, don't ask him for help any more...whether you decide to help him ever again is on you, or to talk to him or whatever.


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#4310837 - 11/10/16 04:25 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Learn to forgive, but do not forget.

#4310850 - 11/10/16 04:56 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Had situation where I ask my brother for a small favor and he refused.I was hurt,he had lived with me for a while after he came home from Nam.Used my car and slept on my couch.I just gave him a home until he got his life going.

Still as time past the hurt eased and I forgave him,I never mentioned it to him and we got to be as close as brothers could be.He's dead now and it hurts my heart to think of him gone and we can't talk and bulls--- each other like we did.I miss him just as much now as I did the day we placed him if the ground.

He was my baby brother.

Forgiveness is not about the other person it's about us.If I couldn't forgive my brother it would have been my loss and I'm thankful that I could.

#4310860 - 11/10/16 05:21 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Have not talked to my brother for over a year after my wife had her stroke.
He called while I was trying help her at the hospital. We had not talked in close
to 5 years. I cut off all communication after he started demanding that we take
time off work to come visit. Not so easy in our line of work. He gets all pissy
and tells us to find new jobs. That was the final straw, he had been telling me
what to do for years and it was upsetting me. Never felt better not having to talk
with him now. Have not seen him since 2008. He drove his daughters away right out
of high school. He always wanted a boy, we had one and he drove a wedge into my
son in 2007. We were up fishing with cousins and they were all so drunk and falling
down stupid my son never wanted to see any of them again. He was 13 at the time.

Forgiveness won`t work in this case. Nor do I feel it necessary.

I do have close contact with my nieces though, they come visit and call
all the time. They never talk about their dad.


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#4310962 - 11/10/16 11:36 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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I find forgiving others is as hard or easy as it is to need someone else's forgiveness. i have lots of weaknesses and try to remember that those who wrong me may have bigger troubles than I know. Part of forgiveness can be giving freely of your kindness to those who need it. We are not all strong alone, but together we move mountains.


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#4310993 - 11/11/16 01:15 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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I don't forgive as much as forget. I don't try to second guess someone who might have wronged me, in my eyes.

Life is far to short to sweat most things like that and as the years pass, they often seem far less important than they once were.

My only brother, and I, have had many differences over the years, but when the feces hits the rotary air mover, we come together and deal with it. We still vehemently disagree on many things but when it gets down to the really important things, we back each other 100%.

Forgiveness it not a weakness, it is more of a way of moving beyond the incident from the past and living the rest of your life, without the baggage.

Last edited by cichlidfan; 11/11/16 01:42 AM.

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#4311028 - 11/11/16 04:46 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice
Sometimes, you forgive them not for them but for you. Not forgiving someone puts you in a really negative situation that only really poisons you; the other party does not know or does not care about doing wrong to you so you just sit there in your negativity getting drained of life and will. So forgive and let it go.

Do note that forgiveness does not mean forgetting. You may forgive your brother for what he has done, but do not forget the lesson you've learned, ie he's not good with money or with paying it back so do not lend him money again unless you're "lending" him the money as a handout and you don't care if you get paid or not.

Lastly, it takes strength to forgive. People today like to "one-up" the other side; "I won't rest until I get my revenge," that sort of thing. Personally, I find that very petty. I've got other things to do with my time, better things to do, things that will help me, make me grow, expand my boundaries. Being able to realize this and learning to "let go" of other people's wrongdoing, that to me takes strength.

So forgive, move on, and live. biggrin


+1 well said Ice


"everything lives by a law, a central balance sustains all"
#4311043 - 11/11/16 07:31 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Like most things inter-personal, I think of it a bit differently.

I don't forgive in the classical sense, or at least I don't think I do.

I accept bad things people do towards me or my loved ones as bad things they've done. I don't hang on to it too tightly; I wasn't the one screwing up, after all.

Then again, I rarely forget and file it away as a metric on how they'll act in the future, adjusting to fit the facts.

Sometimes that means not ever interacting again with them. I'm not carrying around anger, I'm just not engaging them for any reason. They are strangers to me.

Or I might put a time limit on it. I once told a family member that because of their actions I would not speak to them for a year. And so it was. When I called them they were very happy and the first words were "I knew the year was up, but wasn't sure if I was supposed to call you or not."

I never lend money to friends with the idea they'd ever pay me back. Sometimes they actually do, which is a nice surprise. With relatives I snort at the pro-forma promises and tell them we can skip the kabuki dance and save ourselves a lot of anger later on...if they've hit the point where they're asking for money from my shallow well they clearly don't have the means to pay it back. They have never surprised me with cash.

I'm a firm believer that while bad things happen to good people, bad people are just beat to death by misfortune. I've never met a mean or backstabbing person that wasn't miserable all the time.

I'm not vinctive by nature. There are only a few people that if their heads were on fire I wouldn't piss on to put it out.


The opinions of this poster are largely based on facts and portray a possible version of the actual events.

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#4311125 - 11/11/16 03:41 PM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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I think every situation is different.

Some things people do are 'unforgivable'.
Some I can get over, if I believe the person has seen his mistake, and has truly learned.

Some people just continue to hurt one human after another. They literately feed on it.
It's 'who' they are. And they enjoy it.
Looking at the damage they've done, picking up after them, and hundreds like them, hardens the heart.
The 'hunt' goes on, sometimes for years, to stop them.
So much grief in the world, caused by each one.

Forgiving them, would be a serious mistake, IMHO.

I do applaud the humans who can forgive.
I've met many of them. They're beautiful people inside.
It's not weakness. It's just naive, IMO.





"Murphy's Law"
#4311359 - 11/12/16 04:22 AM Re: Is forgiveness weakness [Re: marko1231123]  
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Some people forgive by default, always every time. Blanket forgiveness. That MIGHT be weakness... or not. Depends on what the person is thinking. Personally an automatic forgiveness doesn't work for me.

Forgiveness I think should be earned, just like respect is earned, and I do think they are closely related.

But if you consider the person, the past, what was done, and can then say to yourself "I think I can forgive them now"... THAT is most certainly not weakness. Not at all. I'd even say that it's a strength, that you can dredge up the wounds of the past, and reconsider their acts, giving them the time of day again, that's not weak, that's strength, mental toughness. Discipline.

NEVER EVER forgiving, that I think indicates a weakness of one's own character. The inability to empathize with others, put yourself in their shoes.


I guess I'm in between... forgiveness for some, and definitely not for others. A weakness? Maybe. But with strength too. I guess I'm trying to thread the needle between being a doormat and a hardass, but it's really not too difficult!

I do find that some things are becoming easier to forgive, and other things much more difficult to just wipe the slate clean.


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