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#4309948 - 11/08/16 02:20 AM Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives  
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I'm sorry for coming here to the DCS section at Sim HQ and posting any of the good parts I see ED is doing and wishing to have proper discussion about their new engine, direction and restructuring and also discussing any enjoyment others get from DCS here.

ED should just close the doors now and be done with it, we have BMS anyway and nothing more needed for the future It takes too long to get there anyway

Sorry for enjoying and trying to discuss any good aspects of DCS and where they will get too eventually. I understand youre not allowed to be happy with any part of DCS here otherwise youre just a fanboy and a silly person and will be constantly ridiculed appropriately.

Originally Posted By: - Ice
Statements that have no bearing on the discussion at all. Once those start coming out, I know that the point is won. They may not say it, they may pretend nothing's happened, but the more they do it, the more obvious it becomes. The point is indefensible and they are abandoning it.


Originally Posted By: - Ice


I realize now I shouldnt get the enjoyment I get from DCS and Im now off to uninstall the 3 DCS versions that is annoying because it takes up to much room on my SSDs , I cannot believe Ive been so blind for so long. If it wasnt for you Ice I may have been lost for the next how many years Enjoying DCS, what was I thinking Yeah I know you guys still use the A10 and such occasionally but whats the point, ED will never get anything sorted out, so just uninstall and be done with it guys.

So you have won Ice, you are the man, and you are my hero too for saving me. Think Im about to cry You have broken me down to see the real truth about ED and how evil and unorganised they really are. I will only look at the negative side of DCS from now on and ridicule anyone who comes here talking up any of the good parts they see and feel about ED and their future.

Thanks again Ice youre the man! Big pat on the back for you my man!

3 Cheers for Ice man. hip hip hurray, hip hip hurray, hip hip hurray



Off to Flightsim Rehab to get rid of any optimistic and positive feelings. Big dose of Ritalin or similar might do it.

Inline advert (2nd and 3rd post)

#4309949 - 11/08/16 02:20 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: Remon

To ArtJ. Now, I don't think this as a personal attack, and you probably don't think it's one either, but I've been warned by both Force10 and Murphy before for this exact same thing. And I've even said this to a person that's known to never have played the game, XIII, but only attacks DCS because it encroaches in his favorite sim's territory (EECH and helos), and who then made some childish comment about the greek economy (he's portuguese I believe, which makes it funnier).



Now here we are perhaps getting down to the real reason for the bile venting around here to towards anyone that post anything remotely positive about ED here in the DCS section, and has nothing to do with the excuse of how bad ED does things.

Do the F4 BMS Fanbois hate where DCS is going, that much that they are will to sit in the DCS section of the forum?

Is F4 slowly dying out? Will it be around in a few years with just a few diehard Fanbois left?

Ice, do you struggle clicking on the DCS icon on your desktop to lunch DCS?

Do you get cold sweats, stomach pains and your hand start shaking when making this action with your mouse?

Face the facts Ice, F4 BMS is dead soon, DCS will conquer all and be the Combat Flight Simulator of All time.

You can get medication for the bad dreams Ice, go and see your local doctor, Im sure he can help with this.

F4 in a few years will still work Ice, as long as you dont mind playing on graphics that look like the nineties when close, sort of like playing on the Atari compared to how DCS will be.

Perhaps I should be immature DCS fanboi and head off to the F4 forum to start a few of my own discussions now? Mmmm.. Might see you over there soon Ice.

Originally Posted By: Paul Rix

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the constant, relentless negativity from the same few, very vocal members of this group. After awhile it just comes across as whining and any worthwhile points they make are just lost in the noise.

One big criticism of the ED forums is that they don't allow any negative comments or criticism but it seems at times we are the absolute opposite side of the same coin here.


Originally Posted By: Davemetalhead

I feel this is a very hostile place to talk about DCS. I've had questions in the past that I wanted to post here, but won't because of people like ICE. The rest of the forums are fine, and in fact are very informative and entertaining in places too - but the DCS forums here are just a cesspit of the same people circle-jerking about the same issues over and over and over again. You can guarantee that as soon as a new thread is made here the same people will soon appear to make snarky remarks or just troll.

I also don't understand how the mods don't step in and stop some of the behaviour and out-right trolling that goes on here - is it favouritism? Do they just not care? Do they agree with the behaviour?

Maybe I'm seeing things that aren't there - maybe this behaviour really isn't as bad as it seems and my perception is wrong. Either way, I won't post here asking for advice or answers, and that just seems wrong for a forum.

This is not a friendly place.


#4309957 - 11/08/16 02:51 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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It is interesting that in all of your time here...this is your first attempt to start a thread about anything positive about DCS. That goes for your alter ego "Contempt" that you were posting under for awhile as well. All of your posts until now have been spent arguing with people unhappy with the sim.

It's a shame you actually made a joke out of it.

You can correct me if I'm wrong and point me too some screenshot's you put up in the screenshot section, or an AAR you posted...or a vid. Anything positive you started would go a long way to making your point valid.

All we have seen is you arguing with folks in negative threads.


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#4309964 - 11/08/16 03:11 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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I did try to start a good discussion HERE . Some of the really good positive post are missing because members have left. Possibly because of their moral grounds and realizing others here don't have any at all.

Most threads here go negative you know that.

Originally Posted By: Paul Rix

I would agree with you if it wasn't for the constant, relentless negativity from the same few, very vocal members of this group. After awhile it just comes across as whining and any worthwhile points they make are just lost in the noise.

One big criticism of the ED forums is that they don't allow any negative comments or criticism but it seems at times we are the absolute opposite side of the same coin here.

#4309965 - 11/08/16 03:17 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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You started one controversial thread titled " How accurate is accurate enough outside of a NASA simulation".

A topic that just screams "debate" and that's your positive contribution here?

Hmmm...I guess our definition of "positive" differs then.

As for Paul's comment...I agreed with him somewhat and spelled it out here:

http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/4309926/Re:_DCS_give_away#Post4309926

Care to comment?


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#4309966 - 11/08/16 03:27 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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A debate is one thing. I was trying to have a good debate and it lasted for awhile.
Trying to demoralize the threads with constant spam and misdirection to make ED look bad is another. Some here have major problems with any positive discussion towards ED. Scorned or express "contempt"



#4309967 - 11/08/16 03:43 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC

Trying to demoralize the threads with constant spam and misdirection to make ED look bad is another. Some here have major problems with any positive discussion towards ED. Scorned or express "contempt"



Again...arguing with folks that are venting in a negative thread is not the same as "being positive".

As far spamming and misdirection to make ED "look bad"...I'm afraid some of ED's questionable customer relations snafu's has made them look bad without anybody's help.


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#4309972 - 11/08/16 04:17 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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And I do agree with you, just like I do with others here about their frustrations, it was part of the big call ED made and yes communication can be better perhaps, as I don't know as to why they may do things?

I will post this here instead as this sums up how I see things going.

Once Snoopy's ban was lifted he gave Yo-Yo some great documentation about the hydraulic's found here.

The ITT thing Yo-Yo had documentation and shared it with us when I was talking with another about engine cell data performance, He said it was not a quick fix as there is 100's of data points need to be moved and could mess up other areas of the performance range doing it (More complaining), so he just needs a bit more data, different to what he had mapped with the performance information (100 engine test chart) he had been given by General Electric to justify a change, and yes the discussion went bad for everyone there. Flight simmers are a passionate bunch. Yes it could have been handled better on both sides and that is only my opinion about this.

Their forum is run like it is, so it doesn't go out of control, we don't have to agree with it, I know I wouldn't want to clean a (product) forum up, especially a passionate flight simming one! Be there all day everyday cleaning house. This would not help with development at all. So the rules are set, You only need to be a little bit professional when on their forum and you wont run into any problems.

They will not allow kicking and screaming and spamming of complaints in multiple sections tho. The forum mods probably have to consolidate the mess for the testers to test and report it to ED etc. Could be why they get tick off easily?

Why do you keep talking about evidence? Somethings evidence is needed (Yes the ITT is out by the manual (evidence)"Answer" What should I change it to tho? This is the "detailed" Information I have to go off), sometimes just perception or how someone feels about something. I see your way and do understand why you perceive it the way you do. I just see what I have with ED's products and feel it outweighs the negative. Yes even with the faults for a while, there not show stoppers to me anyway.

Originally Posted By: David_OC
Not once have I seen any real evidence (Links) from you, we are mostly only debating company tactics here anyway. It's only how you wish to perceive things and that's cool.


See the line about "tactics" so you are questioning ED's business tactics. You think it was a bad call worrying about DX11 and should have cleaned up all the other big/small problems instead. The problems too are perceived differently by many people too. To me most are small because how I play and use DCS perhaps. The ITT being out can be a real pain for some and I get that too, because that's how they use DCS.

What I see is some of the underlying problems that need fixing are on the back burner until the core is more stable and the direction or how things will be with the core are a little more set in stone and moving forward.

DX9 to DX11 is a huge leap to make for a company like ED.

ED will get back to fixing all the other problems, perhaps they want to put the time in and redo a lot of it to make it way better and not just spend time trying to tinker with the old code to get it somewhat right. They seem to be perfectionist, perhaps too much sometimes and this slows things down.

I just look at the bigger picture here and the direction they have chosen to go.

I do also enjoy BMS Very much and think BMS (SuperPak - Open Falcon etc) have done amazing things with F4 and it's how F4 would have been "envisioned" back in the mid 90's when the coding started. BMS has helped it fully mature and realize the fully potential of the original F4 code.

The main draw card is that F4 has an all-round fighter that can do ground and air very well and that great feeling that you are a part of a larger battle. It was an amazing idea to build a separate chess board that can play itself with or without you playing. DCS has only real 3D battles in real time like steel beasts; DCS is good enough to be on the ground in a tank too. This limits the playable area size and unit numbers tho for DCS and has no pretend chess playing war bubble to hide the large battles. The military would need and want to create very specific training and scripting suits that. It is cool to hook up real ATC recorded chatter to different stations in the A10, I do this all the time, even real firefights sounds off YouTube, so you feel you need to help out big time.

I still build missions in DCS like a standard mission in F4 that has random spawn intercept paths and events. You just don't get the, I made a difference to the big war picture

The new campaign A-10C Operation Piercing Fury by Ranger79 is very well done, and makes you feel what it would be like to fly in a real war zone. Ranger79 is an OEF/OIF Veteran, the missions are done well and very immersive with proper voice overs etc. Way different to F4 and that's what I mean by not comparing them together.

Can the AMRAAM be better or more accurate? Sure and ED will make it better, but someone will always complain it's not quite right forever, if the sun reflected off my chaff at that angle it would of missed IRL because the autonomous computer would have miss calculated the shot. It is what it is and the argument will go on forever with most things that are simulating real life.

BMP accuracy? Wasn't it better now? More random. Anyway this may come under redoing parts of the overall AI plan perhaps? And not wasting time trying to fudge it better, same with the ATC and ground AI. Just some speculation here tho.

Im a F4 fan too, I had falcon 3.0 on the amiga. I like all the sims I own in different ways and I do own a few. PMDG 737, majestic q400, A2A Comanche, BMS and all the DCS modules.

ED made the massive big call and has paid the price no denying this; it's caused very big delays and massive setbacks with module updates and major fixes. I still feel we were lucky to get Nevada and a taste of what is to come with the maturing of EDGE.

So I agree with the direction ED went, but I too get frustrated with the waiting and the updates for modules. I do think when things settle down and more stable with 2.5 this will all get better. Never perfect because there is no such thing and someone will always think or believe something isnt quite right in any simulated world.

I look at ED and the 3rd partys high fidelity SimArt, at the same level as PMDG. Not many developers are anywhere near this level with aircraft. ED just needs to get their New World stable and have edge mature over the next few years.

Some evidence is just how fn cool it is to fire up say the Gazelle and speed around low level and fly under bridges. I am really enjoying this little chopper, would love to get proper cyclic controls, would settle for mfg crosswinds. Perhaps that will be next on the sim shopping list soon.

Just understand what ED does in the programming world is cRazy nutbagism complex. ED potentially can never stop making these FM's, systems, weapons, ballistic penetration etc better and closer to reality when new information is available.

ED better open communication example perhaps?:
So guys a military contract came up and we have to pull all the coders from (here) and put them on this project., the setback for this is 6 months, everyone cool with that, it is a major client and a good money earner to pay for all the upgrades we are doing. (Insert crowd riot here) We just don't want to end up like MicroProse did back in the nineties.




#4309975 - 11/08/16 05:46 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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I was enjoying all the positives as well, until the layers slowly peeled back revealing what ED are all about, I've fast tracked the A-10C, and in the last three months I've discovered what you guys have been fed for 10+ years, not a great read and certainly a destructive emotion to dull any positive feelings about the game.

I respect any forum that allows free open discussion, it's a shame that can't happen without the obligatory polar opposites hijacking the thread and trying to make the "other side" feel #%&*$# with their subjective views.

Just keep it real, bad comes with good, and in ED's case there's a whole lotta bad...posting what's good ain't going to change diddly squat.

I also agree no-one needs to make ED look bad, they do a good enough job by themselves.

#4309980 - 11/08/16 06:02 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: FartHog]  
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Originally Posted By: FartHog
I was enjoying all the positives as well, until the layers slowly peeled back revealing what ED are all about, I've fast tracked the A-10C, and in the last three months I've discovered what you guys have been fed for 10+ years, not a great read and certainly a destructive emotion to dull any positive feelings about the game.

I respect any forum that allows free open discussion, it's a shame that can't happen without the obligatory polar opposites hijacking the thread and trying to make the "other side" feel #%&*$# with their subjective views.

Just keep it real, bad comes with good, and in ED's case there's a whole lotta bad...posting what's good ain't going to change diddly squat.

I also agree no-one needs to make ED look bad, they do a good enough job by themselves.



Hi FartHog,

Welcome to Sim HQ

I do agree ED has been juggling for quite some time, especially deciding to take the plunge to go from DX9 to DX11. This is no easy task and I believe has set them back and helped cause some of the forum problems for them. I see many good discussions over on the ED forums even with the engineers. I have all also see plenty of just spam repetitive complaints too with no real data. Not cool on a Product forum. I see where they are trying to get to and it was a long hard path they took and this hasn't helped much at all.

I just see and get enjoyment out of whats available to us in all these great sims. It's just how I choose to look at it. Simulations are one of the hardest to code at the DCS level, this also attracts extremely enthusiastic passionate simmers and many fly off the handle very easily if there's a rivet missing.

#4309981 - 11/08/16 06:12 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
A debate is one thing. I was trying to h


Not sure anything is achieved by debate, some aren't capable of being rational so it's pointless. Just stick them on Ignore and move on thumbsup

But by all means promote the good in DCS, even think about contributing further. We can always do with tutorial materials. I wish Requiem did DCS planes hahaha

#4309984 - 11/08/16 07:05 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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The OP is right though, SimHQ forums (the DCS section) is now a moaning simulator where 2-3 girls are constantly spitting bile.

There is nothing serious going on here. I read the new article about the Spit... click on forum link... bleah... green bitter fluids all over. And nothing really serious, just some mixed BS. If somebody from Mars would come and read these threads will not make a "bad impression" about ED rather about the so called complainers because they don't make any sense.

"I was banned so I come here and moan" and "I made some skins, not working, I am a hero sniff sniff." in the middle of everything.

These people don't realize they simply sabotage them selves and their point is just laughable at least. If I would ever get banned on ED forums I want to have nothing in common with these 2-3 personages around here that simply spoiled this forum section. Heck, the day I will get banned on ED forums I will stop any posting here forever.

#4309988 - 11/08/16 07:18 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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What do folks expect? Everyone was in love with ED/DCS. Got married and everything seemed ok. Then a few years go by and you ended up noticing you married someone with a crazy personality disorder and a control freak. So it ends up it looks good on the outside, but don't go looking to deep. Its like a feeling of being betrayed. So ya, folks are venting. It was a vary predictable thing that happened here. It is also text book what not do in the PR side of the business. How not go about things. This does not take away that technically its real neat stuff. Its just the everything else abusive relationship that is the issue.

#4309989 - 11/08/16 07:41 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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I don't see talking about reality and venting moaning, people interpreting it as moaning on the other hand always seem to have a lot so say, intertwined with needless antagonistic digs.

On the positive side, I did quite a bit of work on a Pure Desert / Afghan Style texture mod, all on hold until 2.5 appears to see what's changed and what ED deem possible.

Most of my terrain questions went unanswered in the other forum, I could do with some guidance.

Last edited by FartHog; 11/08/16 07:42 AM.
#4309990 - 11/08/16 07:44 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: FlashBurn]  
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Originally Posted By: FlashBurn
What do folks expect? Everyone was in love with ED/DCS. Got married and everything seemed ok. Then a few years go by and you ended up noticing you married someone with a crazy personality disorder and a control freak. So it ends up it looks good on the outside, but don't go looking to deep. Its like a feeling of being betrayed. So ya, folks are venting. It was a vary predictable thing that happened here. It is also text book what not do in the PR side of the business. How not go about things. This does not take away that technically its real neat stuff. Its just the everything else abusive relationship that is the issue.


I keep hearing this abusive relationship and don't quite understand it. I have seen a lot of great debates about a hole bunch of things on the ED forums and as long if you have a little bit of respect for others and yourself it's all good.

Most seem to think that 39.95 gives them the right to go around yelling,screening and spit on the floor because a switch doesn't quite work right. The bug section is filled with bugs, and I think this is a great way to weed out the bugs for ED testers to test before reporting them to ED. Just be professional and respectfully on their product forum. And don't stir up the mods.

#4309993 - 11/08/16 08:15 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: David_OC]  
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That there is no serious competition is DCS/EDs problem here. It is completely normal that people have different expectations and priorities. Not everyone is happy with any sim/game out there. Normally people would just move on and play something else. In the niche flight sim market they cant. So they stay and keep complaining.

#4309999 - 11/08/16 09:17 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: Antoninus]  
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Originally Posted By: Antoninus
That there is no serious competition is DCS/EDs problem here. It is completely normal that people have different expectations and priorities. Not everyone is happy with any sim/game out there. Normally people would just move on and play something else. In the niche flight sim market they cant. So they stay and keep complaining.


It's hard in the simming market and that's the nature of the beast to even do flight sims in the first place. I'm sill happy Eagle Dynamics 1991 has stuck with Flightsim's this far. The level of skill they have in the team must be crazy, they must be all passionate about it, otherwise I don't know why the coders would ever be there? Go build goat sims guy's. It would be so much less stress.

It would be nice to have competition, but who would be crazy enough to try and do it at this level?

#4310005 - 11/08/16 09:30 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: FartHog]  
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Originally Posted By: David_OC
A debate is one thing. I was trying to have a good debate and it lasted for awhile.
Trying to demoralize the threads with constant spam and misdirection to make ED look bad is another. Some here have major problems with any positive discussion towards ED. Scorned or express "contempt"

You seem to misunderstand the term "debate." If one side is positive and the other side is positive, is that a debate? No. One side is positive, the other side is negative. Just because you cannot defend your positive points against evidence-based negative points, you cry foul?


Originally Posted By: David_OC
Once Snoopy's ban was lifted he gave Yo-Yo some great documentation about the hydraulic's found here.

Posting that wall of text here again? I've already tackled this in the Campaigns thread. If you are really interested in discussion as opposed to just whining, I invite you to respond to that. And by "respond," I mean to tackle the points in the response, not going off on yet another tangent. Try to stay focused. Just like ED is encouraged to try and stay focused.



Originally Posted By: FartHog
I also agree no-one needs to make ED look bad, they do a good enough job by themselves.

*tips hat
Thank you for that statement Mr. Hog! biggrin


- Ice
#4310007 - 11/08/16 09:40 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: tagTaken2]  
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Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
Not sure anything is achieved by debate, some aren't capable of being rational so it's pointless. Just stick them on Ignore and move on thumbsup

If you don't want your ideas to be challenged, then maybe you guys are in the wrong forum?

Originally Posted By: tagTaken2
But by all means promote the good in DCS, even think about contributing further. We can always do with tutorial materials. I wish Requiem did DCS planes hahaha

Sure, but that's not what he was doing. Read the original post and it's mostly whining and moaning about how he can't counter my points. As Force10 said, David has yet to contribute positively to this forum and he's definitely not promoting the good in DCS.

Let me be clear on this:
There is some good in DCS. The A10C module. The BS2 module. The attention to detail. I've said this before many times, and I can easily defend this position in any debate.


- Ice
#4310008 - 11/08/16 09:45 AM Re: Sorry I was enjoying DCS and seeing the positives [Re: zaelu]  
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
- Ice Offline
Veteran
- Ice  Offline
Veteran

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 16,082
Philippines / North East UK
Originally Posted By: zaelu
where 2-3 girls are constantly spitting bile.

As opposed to the mature ones calling their opposition "girls"?

Originally Posted By: zaelu
"I was banned so I come here and moan" and "I made some skins, not working, I am a hero sniff sniff." in the middle of everything.

If you don't want to read about moaning and skins being broken, don't click on the link. Simple! You're welcome!

Originally Posted By: zaelu
These people don't realize they simply sabotage them selves and their point is just laughable at least. If I would ever get banned on ED forums I want to have nothing in common with these 2-3 personages around here that simply spoiled this forum section. Heck, the day I will get banned on ED forums I will stop any posting here forever.

I'm quite sure ED doesn't pay attention to their customers anyway outside of trying to find reasons to ban them on the ED forums. I'm quite sure whatever we do, ED will still continue to bulldoze it's way forward so we're not sabotaging anything except probably our reputation.... but if ED one day proves us "girls" wrong, it'll be a win-win for the flight simulation community and I, for one, would gladly welcome that day with open arms. But as they say in Game of Thrones, "not today!"

As for our laughable points, well, I'd love to see what you can come up with to counter these "laughable" points. Should be easy then, as they are "laughable." I'll add your repsonse to my waiting list.


- Ice
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