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#4293057 - 09/02/16 06:22 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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Jedi Master Offline
Entil'zha
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What I find most amusing is that the word has become its own oxymoron.

moderation
noun
noun: moderation

1.
the avoidance of excess or extremes, especially in one's behavior or political opinions.
"he urged the police to show moderation"
synonyms: self-restraint, restraint, self-control, self-command, self-discipline; More
temperance, leniency, fairness
"he urged them to show moderation"
the action of making something less extreme, intense, or violent.



Just how much moderation is there in forum moderation?




The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
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#4293068 - 09/02/16 06:42 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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Need popcorn for this culture clash;)

I like open expressions myself, but it's true that in many areas ppl don't subscribe to this and have their own way of things.
So for you Americans and brits it might as well be a $60 ticket to the Gulag ahahaha!!! (Sorry if its too much... I can't help it!)

And sorry DCS as well, if you can't handle the western market (u certainly aren't the first!)... your huge loss, but perhaps it's more comfy for you at home.

Last edited by Schwalbe; 09/02/16 06:58 PM.
#4293070 - 09/02/16 06:59 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: KraziKanuK
SimHQ, like DCS, now has terrible moderation.

http://forum.il2sturmovik.com/topic/24894-sim-hq/

Haha!! He went there to complain and was promptly told off. thumbsup




Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Why bother? Why not just say "meh, fk this!" and walk away? Because you like the game. Because you like the sim. Because you want to fly it, notice a flaw, look up some evidence that shows some values are off, go to the forums to see if it could be fixed.... BAM! Banned!


This to me looks like:
-Why you stalled?
-Because I got scared of the ground coming up and pulled harder.


If you like the game and you want a flaw you think you saw corrected and you have "some proof" you need also to modulate your approach. These are the rules. And almost like in life... they are not clear... they are interpret-able, mostly by the "law giver". It is you who needs to adapt and not try to hide/shield behind some idealist customer service.

Totally, totally missed the point there buddy. Stalling and pulling too hard is way different from verifiable, repeatable "off values" such as ITT and many others. Your example is a user error, the others are reproducible no matter the user or the system.

As for modulating the approach, again, we don't know where the line is. Perfectly good discussions and comments have seen users banned, not just the whiny ones.

Tell you what... you go down the road at, say, 40mph. You pass a cop, you're fine. Next day you go down the same road at 38mph and get a speeding ticket. When you ask why because he didn't stop you yesterday, he responds with "oh, going 'too fast' is interpret-able by the 'law giver' so I think you were going too fast today but you were okay yesterday." Yeah, good luck with that.


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

It's not our fault the game has bugs. It's not our fault the game has inconsistencies. It's not our fault ED can't face either of these facts. But we are punished for it with bans. We like this game. It is worth our time. Unfortunately, ED doesn't think we're worth their time.


This kind of interpretation only gives you head aches and bad feelings.

Good for you that you don't feel this way. I do, and many others. Unfortunately, we think that people should deliver on their promises and on a timely manner. Shock! Horror!

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Also, this doesn't hold up to Force10's situation. He wasn't even posting!! But he got a light tap of the ban hammer anyway.



Yea but he also is very chill about it.

"Getting banned from a forum I never use is pretty much a non-issue for me however."

Again, totally missed my point.



Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Community: This part of the sim is broken!
ED: Show me proof.
C: Here you go, clear as day.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Here's another one. And here's how it works in real life as proof as well.
E: I don't accept that proof.
C: Well, what would you accept?
E: Show me proof.
Crazy!!


You have the recipe correct only at the end you interpret it wrong I think. Is not like ED is some sort of religion and no matter what you say they will reject "Evolution". They just tell you your proof is not good enough. What if you are wrong several times in a row? Is it really impossible?

Turn the problem upside down. What is your bug actually? Is it a small bug or a conspiracy trail? Say that bug with A-10C engines not pulling all the percents at some points. What is that bug? A conspiracy of ED to degrade A-10C legacy? Imho that would be ridiculous so if I see them stubborn about that issue then maybe either they have a secret source or a better source or they have a contract with USAF to make A-10c a bit... weaker for others eyes. IN this case they will not move one inch and they will push hard back.

Unfortunately, what I said seems to be what is happening. Otherwise, you're just calling Noodle and Snoopy and everyone who has reproducible bugs "wrong."


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Another point --- How can the "solid and more sensitive" documentation be different from what documentation and real-life performance Snoopy and Noodle are showing?


If Snoopy and Noodle were Yo-Yo's friends I am sure their real life experience would count a bit more. Not being in that case I think you can agree they will have harder time convincing with just that.

Yeah, apparently working on the ACTUAL FRIKKIN HARDWARE as a J-O-B is not credentials enough. You need to be friends first? Really? Is this how you establish credibility? So if Neil deGrasse comes up to you and tells you facts about the universe that you don't know about, you don't believe him because you're not friends?


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

You must be a great customer. You buy a car, it doesn't work as advertised, but you don't go back to the dealer to complain because you're scared of being thrown out the window.


No... I simply have a contract that say he is covering only the engine and gearbox and not the wiring of the ventilation fan engine. True story biggrin I don't like battles where is clear as day I will lose.[/qoute]

No. I will say it's a new car and everything, EVERYTHING should be working. Faulty wiring is not "wear and tear" so they should fix it.

Customer service must REALLY be different in France, huh?


Originally Posted By: zaelu
Now imagine you are selling icecream online to hundred of thousands of people. Some like to trash your store...some just complain... put together they will add to some good some that will fill you quite a few days to tackle the "smile approach". If not enough... Try imagine yo are selling that icecream online in Russia also... wink

Well, if they can't take the heat, maybe they should stop selling ice cream... or get better customer support reps. You really, REALLY think big companies don't have people who like to trash them? There's a whole INDUSTRY built around customer support.

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice

Originally Posted By: zaelu
Also... ED stopped giving dead lines a good while ago.

Really?...

...we plan
...is still on track...

Sounds like deadlines to me!


As you can see... it is your choice to translate "we plan" and "is still on track" with "Sure Deadline"

Yeah, way to go. Altering my statement.
Simple point: You said ED stopped giving deadlines, I just showed you that ED still gave deadlines. No translation, no interpretation.


- Ice
#4293199 - 09/03/16 03:33 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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There is a fantastic wealth of discussion occurring on ED forums, knowledgeable and cooperative people productively discussing a challenging subject. That's what makes the destructive minority of incidents so regrettable.

#4293205 - 09/03/16 04:39 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice

Yeah, apparently working on the ACTUAL FRIKKIN HARDWARE as a J-O-B is not credentials enough. You need to be friends first? Really? Is this how you establish credibility? So if Neil deGrasse comes up to you and tells you facts about the universe that you don't know about, you don't believe him because you're not friends?


Is not how scince works. Credibility is a good thing and has different possible "river sources". Credencials, Friendship (meaning you know that scientist). But ultimately... Credibility is not proof...

As much I appreciate Neil deGrasse I will not take everything he says as fact. I really don't biggrin I have my own ideas made from mix of many other ideas and maybe some of my own. Nothing spooky/tin foil hat style but simple what if ideas. But that is another topic. Anyway... here is a funny thing:



Originally Posted By: - Ice

Yeah, way to go. Altering my statement.
Simple point: You said ED stopped giving deadlines, I just showed you that ED still gave deadlines. No translation, no interpretation.


You altered first their statement... they are saying "we plan to" and " "still on track" you understood "deadline".

I plan to make a rock space ship. Literally (yeah... no good materials so I have to go with what I have around and also since it will be FTL capable... I hear mass doesn't matter anymore after some point cool ) that doesn't mean I have a deadline... I could die before I finish it... maybe that's the deadline biggrin


Anyway... lets just agree to disagree and let others chime in maybe different ideas. Cheers!

#4293252 - 09/03/16 12:53 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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I still believe a "culture clash", as someone called it above is the primary factor here. I'd hazard a guess most of guys posting in this section are into combat sims featuring modern planes, so their difficult experiences with Eastern devs are probably limited to ED only and their lineup of products since Flanker era. On the other hand, they have better experiences with Western devs and modding communities responsible for Jane's and the Falcon series, or civilian A/C sims.

For guys like me, who got into DCS relatively recently from WWI & WWII-flyers community, the situation on ED forums is kind of "normal" (in a pathological way). That's because we've learned since the year 2000 - release of the first Il-2 installment, and all subsequent major WWI/WWII sims, that it's just the way Russian (or generally post-Soviet) devs work, no matter which software company they're from. Sure, the banning at ED for opinions posted on other boards is a certain eff'd up novelty (crossing the borders of absurd in my opinion), but it doesn't go much beyond the traditional customer-relations mindset of Eastern devs, that I can assure You will not change anytime soon, if ever.

Now I'm NOT saying it's a good, or acceptable thing from Western customer point of view. It's just I know that You can only either live with it, or change the type of PC games You play.

That response crossed my mind when I read Ice's replies above about the "smile approach" in an ice-cream shop, or the "100%-working" situation in the car dealer's. I don't know how many actual companies in the West work with such a high (borderline utopian?) ethics, but these replies raised my eyebrows - I can sure as hell tell You Sir that's usually not how businesses are being run here on the eastern side of ex-Iron Courtain. Again, I'm not saying I approve that, but one has just to be mentally prepared for that kind of "issues" when dealing with the devs the further East You go. The producer-customer relations here have been changing for better since 1990s, but they've been changing slooooowly. I know it all too well after living too many years in the middle of the continent, between the cultural extremes biggrin.

#4293310 - 09/03/16 04:51 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Frederf]  
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Originally Posted By: Frederf
There is a fantastic wealth of discussion occurring on ED forums, knowledgeable and cooperative people productively discussing a challenging subject. That's what makes the destructive minority of incidents so regrettable.


Well said.



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#4293491 - 09/04/16 01:56 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Art_J]  
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Originally Posted By: Art_J
I still believe a "culture clash", as someone called it above is the primary factor here. I'd hazard a guess most of guys posting in this section are into combat sims featuring modern planes, so their difficult experiences with Eastern devs are probably limited to ED only and their lineup of products since Flanker era. On the other hand, they have better experiences with Western devs and modding communities responsible for Jane's and the Falcon series, or civilian A/C sims.

For guys like me, who got into DCS relatively recently from WWI & WWII-flyers community, the situation on ED forums is kind of "normal" (in a pathological way). That's because we've learned since the year 2000 - release of the first Il-2 installment, and all subsequent major WWI/WWII sims, that it's just the way Russian (or generally post-Soviet) devs work, no matter which software company they're from. Sure, the banning at ED for opinions posted on other boards is a certain eff'd up novelty (crossing the borders of absurd in my opinion), but it doesn't go much beyond the traditional customer-relations mindset of Eastern devs, that I can assure You will not change anytime soon, if ever.

Now I'm NOT saying it's a good, or acceptable thing from Western customer point of view. It's just I know that You can only either live with it, or change the type of PC games You play.

That response crossed my mind when I read Ice's replies above about the "smile approach" in an ice-cream shop, or the "100%-working" situation in the car dealer's. I don't know how many actual companies in the West work with such a high (borderline utopian?) ethics, but these replies raised my eyebrows - I can sure as hell tell You Sir that's usually not how businesses are being run here on the eastern side of ex-Iron Courtain. Again, I'm not saying I approve that, but one has just to be mentally prepared for that kind of "issues" when dealing with the devs the further East You go. The producer-customer relations here have been changing for better since 1990s, but they've been changing slooooowly. I know it all too well after living too many years in the middle of the continent, between the cultural extremes biggrin.


Thanks for that insight, Art_J! If that is indeed true, then that's very interesting. However, I, for one, should NOT be surprised. I may have exaggerated a bit regarding my ice-cream shop example but I'm pretty confident about my car example. A few other examples I could give -- I bought a few sleeve pages for my cards (like Magic: The Gathering) and in the box of 50 pages, 3 were damaged by some manufacturing problem. I sent the company an email, they apologized profusely, asked for my address, and sent me an entire box of 50 pages to make up for the damaged 3 pages. In a well-known company, one of their miniature figures did not have the antenna glued on and I complained about it. Again, an apology, asked for my address, and sent me an entirely new miniature. As Asians, my family and I consume a lot of rice. It's a staple food, and so we bought a rice cooker to make things easier. This particular brand had the tendency for the switch to break after about a year of use. Since we took out "warranty" for this item, we can simply bring it back and get a new rice cooker in exchange. We've been doing this for the past few years now and I'm pretty sure we're on our 4th rice cooker. Sure, we could buy a different brand, but the wife likes the idea of having a "new" rice cooker every year! biggrin

Contrast that to back home in the Philippines... if anything broke, like the rice cooker example, it would be up to us, the consumer, to prove that it was broken on purchase. If we had used it for at least a week or a month before bringing it back with a broken switch, there was no chance at all that it would be replaced! Same thing for a car.... the repair company could "find out" that I probably drove over a rough patch of road, had a rock fly INTO the engine area and damage the wiring so I'll still be responsible for the repair, even though the car is only 2 days old!


- Ice
#4293494 - 09/04/16 02:16 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
Originally Posted By: - Ice
Yeah, apparently working on the ACTUAL FRIKKIN HARDWARE as a J-O-B is not credentials enough. You need to be friends first? Really? Is this how you establish credibility? So if Neil deGrasse comes up to you and tells you facts about the universe that you don't know about, you don't believe him because you're not friends?


Is not how scince works. Credibility is a good thing and has different possible "river sources". Credencials, Friendship (meaning you know that scientist). But ultimately... Credibility is not proof...

So working on the hardware, having other people who work on the hardware say the same, and showing documentation to show that what they are claiming is what is happening in the real worl.... that's not "credible" enough? That's not proof enough?

So what is needed then, exactly?

Originally Posted By: zaelu
As much I appreciate Neil deGrasse I will not take everything he says as fact. I really don't biggrin I have my own ideas made from mix of many other ideas and maybe some of my own. Nothing spooky/tin foil hat style but simple what if ideas.

Sure, if he talks to you about "the best chocolate ever!" or "what car is the best to drive" but when he talks to you about facts of the universe [hint: that's his area of expertise], you won't believe him as you have your own ideas.... hilarious!





Originally Posted By: zaelu
You altered first their statement... they are saying "we plan to" and " "still on track" you understood "deadline".

I plan to make a rock space ship. Literally (yeah... no good materials so I have to go with what I have around and also since it will be FTL capable... I hear mass doesn't matter anymore after some point cool ) that doesn't mean I have a deadline... I could die before I finish it... maybe that's the deadline biggrin

Sorry, no. I've not altered anything. I can even give you screenshots of those newsletter if you so desire. I know you're struggling with "credibility" and such concepts.

"still on track" --- fine, might be a deadline, might not be.
"still on track to be available in 2016" --- clear as day. Deadline.
"Later ... we plan to release the Hornet" --- uh, okay. "later..."
"Later in 2016 we plan to release the Hornet" --- aha! Deadline.

Note that there's a difference between reading just a few words and reading the entire sentence.

Look at it this way. Your car is at the repair shop. You ask your mechanic when you can get your car back, when will he finish his repairs. "Later." Well, good luck with that, buddy! Later today? Later this week? Later this month? Later this year? Later in your lifetime? So that response is not establishing a deadline. When he says "later on Tuesday afternoon," that's more of a deadline, but again, not very clear. Is it this Tuesday? Next tuesday? But it's getting closer to establishing a deadline. When he says "later this Tuesday the 5th, before 5pm," then bang! You have a clear, established deadline. ED is trying to be smart and be vague, quoting an entire year instead of locking down a specific day on a specific month of a specific year, but it's a deadline nonetheless. Why? Because they said 2016, so when January 1st, 2017 rolls around, you know clear-as-day that it's no longer 2016 and they missed their deadline. Unless the move it around Decembertime.... but that still means they HAVE given a deadline.

Deadline
noun
1. the time by which something must be finished or submitted; the latest time for finishing something: a five o'clock deadline.
2. a line or limit that must not be passed.


Damn, I didn't know I'll have to give English lessons on an argument thread dizzy


- Ice
#4293501 - 09/04/16 02:39 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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I'm sure ED probably take into account the 'financial year' too, so it gives them an extra 3 months to the end of March 2017 when people complain on the 1st January that their 2016 deadline has been and gone.



On the Eighth day God created Paratroopers and the Devil stood to attention.
#4293506 - 09/04/16 02:49 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Paradaz]  
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Originally Posted By: Paradaz
I'm sure ED probably take into the 'financial year' too, so it gives them an extra 3 months to the end of March 2017 when people complain on the 1st January that their 2016 deadline has been and gone.


Ah yes.... so March 31 "2016" release date is still a possibility! biggrin


- Ice
#4293507 - 09/04/16 02:51 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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Welcome to the club Force 10. Now you understand a little better when ED mods come over here to defend their crappy actions over there why we're irritated. Frankly, there is NO defense for a banning (oops, I mean denied posting) over there when the myriad of instances is because ED and their moderation policies are firmly rooted up their behinds.

I still go over to ED's forums to keep up on mods and such. But don't feel the need to post. I believe I even have a spoofed account over there should I feel that I wanted to. But since it's been half a decade I don't even think I remember the login or password.

#4293539 - 09/04/16 05:17 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
Anyway... here is a funny thing:




OMG!! Thanks for posting that video! Really cracked me up!
"Get to da choppa!!"

And Neil DGT really showed how cool he is.... he can make mistakes but he's always open to "getting smarter everyday!"

Anyone who has played helo sims will know about autorotation; tried it a few times in EECH but I'm not very good at it. I wonder if it's better modeled in FSX? Or maybe XP10? Anyway, I guess Neil DGT isn't much of a rotorhead, but at least he knows of autorotation now! biggrin


- Ice
#4293545 - 09/04/16 05:32 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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It's good in DCS you know biggrin.

It's just counter intuitive to plane engine failure... I crashed quite a few Hueys before I understood that nose down is bad. In the end... I associated it with keeping the motorcycle on the turn by "tensioning" the throttle. Only you have two here.

#4293551 - 09/04/16 06:16 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: zaelu]  
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Originally Posted By: zaelu
It's good in DCS you know biggrin.

It's just counter intuitive to plane engine failure... I crashed quite a few Hueys before I understood that nose down is bad. In the end... I associated it with keeping the motorcycle on the turn by "tensioning" the throttle. Only you have two here.


Never really tried in DCS. I'm always in the weeds with the Shark so I either 1) have no time to eject or 2) eject but end up in my helo's wreckage anyway! smile

IIRC, there's also a minimum altitude.... such that if you're under this altitude, there isn't much time/space/altitude to properly autorotate and I suspect I'm always well below that in-game.


- Ice
#4293569 - 09/04/16 07:51 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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Banning someone for saying something not on your forum is a very slippery slope. How do they even know they banned the right person. For instance there are many Masters out there and banning Master on another forum for something I said here is very likely to ban some random innocent person.

But I just checked and I'm not banned over there! Suckers!


And we as its creators don't feel ready to hear your annoyed jabber about it.
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#4293835 - 09/05/16 11:10 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Master]  
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Originally Posted By: Master
Banning someone for saying something not on your forum is a very slippery slope. How do they even know they banned the right person.

I'm pretty sure they don't really care much about that.


- Ice
#4293939 - 09/06/16 02:27 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: - Ice]  
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Originally Posted By: - Ice


Contrast that to back home in the Philippines... if anything broke, like the rice cooker example, it would be up to us, the consumer, to prove that it was broken on purchase. If we had used it for at least a week or a month before bringing it back with a broken switch, there was no chance at all that it would be replaced! Same thing for a car.... the repair company could "find out" that I probably drove over a rough patch of road, had a rock fly INTO the engine area and damage the wiring so I'll still be responsible for the repair, even though the car is only 2 days old!



It's all about the market. There, where every company has the same standards of behavior, you just went with what you wanted and factored in zero post-purchase support as part of your equation. Since no one did it, you didn't feel slighted that the one you bought from didn't.

Over here, companies with no interest in customer service (or who just suck at it) get hammered compared to the competition that does. The companies that didn't have competition, monopolies like the utilities and (in past decades) the phone company, tended to get horrible ratings on that.

If you can find it online, look for Lily Tomlin's old skit doing an AT&T ad from the late 70s or so. The company slogan was "We're the phone company. We don't care. We don't have to."

Now with sims we DO have the choice to simply keep on playing the older sims because we're not forced to get these, unlike people dealing with power or water. Yet the fact remains that if another company was competing that had a better reputation, then given comparable product quality the better rep wins.





The Jedi Master


The anteater is wearing the bagel because he's a reindeer princess. -- my 4 yr old daughter
#4294047 - 09/06/16 09:03 PM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
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That may be true in some degree, but it's not just the company's fault. I think if our government had more teeth, then it can impose certain consumer rights similar to here in the UK.

As for sims, yeah. It's a hobby so even if there was a monopoly, a consumer could simply opt not to buy it at all (and play older titles instead). I do wish the market was bigger, enough to entice other companies to join in and provide competition.... that, or some billionaire sim enthusiast will decide to throw a few million and make a kick-ass sim.


- Ice
#4295420 - 09/12/16 06:57 AM Re: From "Banned" to "Posting Rights Revoked" [Re: Force10]  
Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1
Biggins Offline
Junior Member
Biggins  Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Sep 2016
Posts: 1
please tell me, could I be banned from forum due to the use of proxy?

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